Since I have strategic bombing on the brain, I shall note here that Italy's options for strategic bombing are more-or-less identical to Germany's.
I should note that Italy might be a stronger pick for an Axis strategic air raider because it mostly builds longer-range LND and NAV (compared to Germany's short-range Stuka LND). A 9-range NAV or LND with 2-3 strat factors can reach every factory in the UK from Calais. Two of those and one of Italy's 2-reorg HQ-Is and you have a nice mini-campaign going on.
Italian LND & NAV are also helpful in the USSR campaign for strategic raiding because of their longer ranges. HQ-I Balbo or HQ-A Graziani and a few planes can take potshots at the oil (or any railed factories) in the Caucasus or (if the Axis advance to the Volga line east of Moscow) at the factory base along the Urals.
AI for MWiF-Italy
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
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composer99
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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
~ Composer99
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composer99
- Posts: 2931
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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
I read through the thread earlier and didn't see that I'd mentioned it, so I will now. Apologies if I've already brought this up (might have in either the German or CW AI threads):
If Germany is planning a Sealion, one possible Italian tactic is, while neutral vis-à-vis the Commonwealth, to sail a transport through the Straits of Gibraltar into the Atlantic and rebase it to Germany during a subsequent impulse (Italy must be at war with someone to do this part, of course). You could do this with more than one transport.
Upside is that it increases available Axis sealift to invade the UK or support an invasion.
Downside is the decrease in flexibility in operating in the Med (especially if you sail all of Italy's lift out) - although this may not be as important as the CW may neglect reinforcing the Med to meet the threatened invasion.
Another downside is telegraphing Axis intentions.
Another downside is, unless the transport moves out on the very first impulse of the game and Italy enters the war on the second, there is a real threat of a CW declaration of war finding and sinking the transport (or aborting the transport, then intercepting it en route back to Germany thus sinking it - unless the CW player is me, in which case you're golden because he'll miss the initial search and every interception).
If, on the other hand, the Italians are participating in a kitchen-sink Barb, they may only need 1 transport to bring the army back from Africa, so in conjunction with some phanton German AMPH builds this might be a good way to feint the Commonwealth.
If Germany is planning a Sealion, one possible Italian tactic is, while neutral vis-à-vis the Commonwealth, to sail a transport through the Straits of Gibraltar into the Atlantic and rebase it to Germany during a subsequent impulse (Italy must be at war with someone to do this part, of course). You could do this with more than one transport.
Upside is that it increases available Axis sealift to invade the UK or support an invasion.
Downside is the decrease in flexibility in operating in the Med (especially if you sail all of Italy's lift out) - although this may not be as important as the CW may neglect reinforcing the Med to meet the threatened invasion.
Another downside is telegraphing Axis intentions.
Another downside is, unless the transport moves out on the very first impulse of the game and Italy enters the war on the second, there is a real threat of a CW declaration of war finding and sinking the transport (or aborting the transport, then intercepting it en route back to Germany thus sinking it - unless the CW player is me, in which case you're golden because he'll miss the initial search and every interception).
If, on the other hand, the Italians are participating in a kitchen-sink Barb, they may only need 1 transport to bring the army back from Africa, so in conjunction with some phanton German AMPH builds this might be a good way to feint the Commonwealth.
~ Composer99
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Extraneous
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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
Lets just say I have a vision problem (when not wearing my reading glasses) that can shift information down a line when reading charts.
I would appreciate it if someone would check this for me.
Activity limits:
All major powers (including the units of their aligned minor countries) during their impulse
Unlimited Declarations of war
Unlimited Naval air interception missions
Unlimited Shore bombardment
Unlimited Ground support missions
Unlimited Headquarters reorganization
Unlimited TRS re-supply
These missions occur during every air mission except re-base, naval air and naval air interception
-- Unlimited Combat air patrol missions
-- Unlimited Escorting aircraft missions
-- Unlimited Intercepting aircraft missions
All major powers (including the units of their aligned minor countries) during an enemy impulse
Unlimited Combat air patrol missions
Unlimited Escorting aircraft missions
Unlimited Intercepting aircraft missions
Unlimited Naval movement only when a unit’s base is overrun (see 11.11.6 Overruns).
Unlimited Naval interception missions
Unlimited Naval combat only in sea areas your opponent moved a unit into, and only if they did not try to initiate combat there.
Unlimited Naval air interception missions
Unlimited Shore bombardment if you are playing with defensive shore bombardment - see 11.16.2 Shore bombardment.
Unlimited Ground support missions
Unlimited Re-base aircraft missions only when a unit’s base is overrun (see 11.11.6 Overruns).
Italian activity limits:
Naval action
No Rail movement
Unlimited Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Naval Embarkation
-- Naval transport
-- Naval combats
No Land movements
-- Land moves
-- Paradrop
-- Unlimited Debarkation (units transported directly into port debark with no land movement cost)
No Land attacks
-- Land attack
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
2x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop this is only possible if your ATRs are carrying units of a co-operating major power that chose a land or combined action.
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions
Air action
1x Rail movement (You can only rail aircraft units) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
No Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation only if a co-operating major power (that chose a naval or combined action) embarks your unit.
-- Naval transport
-- Unlimited Naval combats
No Land movements
-- Land moves
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
-- Debarkation
No Land attacks
-- Land attack
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
Unlimited Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop this is only possible if your ATRs are carrying units of a co-operating major power that chose a land or combined action.
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions
Land action
1x Rail movement (You can only rail land units or factories) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
No Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation only if a co-operating major power (that chose a naval or combined action) embarks your unit.
-- Naval transport
-- Naval combat (this does not deny your naval units that stayed at sea from a previous impulse the ability to make enemy naval units fight their through)
Unlimited Land movement
-- Land moves (a land move is the movement of 1 land unit - see 11.11 Land movement)
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Debarkation
Unlimited Land attacks (a land attack is an attack against 1 enemy stack by any number of units - see 11.16 Land combat).
-- Land attack
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land Attack)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land Attack)
1x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission)
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions
Combined action
1x Rail movement (You can rail land units, factories, or aircraft units) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
1x Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation
-- Unlimited Naval transport
-- Unlimited Naval combat
2x Land movement
-- Land moves (a land move is the movement of 1 land unit - see 11.11 Land movement)
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Debarkation
1x Land attack (a land attack is an attack against 1 enemy stack by any number of units - see 11.16 Land combat)
-- Land attack
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land Attack)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land Attack)
3x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission)
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions
Each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission and 1x Land movement.
Each Paradrop counts as 1x Land attack.
I would appreciate it if someone would check this for me.
Activity limits:
All major powers (including the units of their aligned minor countries) during their impulse
Unlimited Declarations of war
Unlimited Naval air interception missions
Unlimited Shore bombardment
Unlimited Ground support missions
Unlimited Headquarters reorganization
Unlimited TRS re-supply
These missions occur during every air mission except re-base, naval air and naval air interception
-- Unlimited Combat air patrol missions
-- Unlimited Escorting aircraft missions
-- Unlimited Intercepting aircraft missions
All major powers (including the units of their aligned minor countries) during an enemy impulse
Unlimited Combat air patrol missions
Unlimited Escorting aircraft missions
Unlimited Intercepting aircraft missions
Unlimited Naval movement only when a unit’s base is overrun (see 11.11.6 Overruns).
Unlimited Naval interception missions
Unlimited Naval combat only in sea areas your opponent moved a unit into, and only if they did not try to initiate combat there.
Unlimited Naval air interception missions
Unlimited Shore bombardment if you are playing with defensive shore bombardment - see 11.16.2 Shore bombardment.
Unlimited Ground support missions
Unlimited Re-base aircraft missions only when a unit’s base is overrun (see 11.11.6 Overruns).
Italian activity limits:
Naval action
No Rail movement
Unlimited Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Naval Embarkation
-- Naval transport
-- Naval combats
No Land movements
-- Land moves
-- Paradrop
-- Unlimited Debarkation (units transported directly into port debark with no land movement cost)
No Land attacks
-- Land attack
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
2x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop this is only possible if your ATRs are carrying units of a co-operating major power that chose a land or combined action.
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions
Air action
1x Rail movement (You can only rail aircraft units) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
No Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation only if a co-operating major power (that chose a naval or combined action) embarks your unit.
-- Naval transport
-- Unlimited Naval combats
No Land movements
-- Land moves
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
-- Debarkation
No Land attacks
-- Land attack
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
Unlimited Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop this is only possible if your ATRs are carrying units of a co-operating major power that chose a land or combined action.
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions
Land action
1x Rail movement (You can only rail land units or factories) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
No Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation only if a co-operating major power (that chose a naval or combined action) embarks your unit.
-- Naval transport
-- Naval combat (this does not deny your naval units that stayed at sea from a previous impulse the ability to make enemy naval units fight their through)
Unlimited Land movement
-- Land moves (a land move is the movement of 1 land unit - see 11.11 Land movement)
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Debarkation
Unlimited Land attacks (a land attack is an attack against 1 enemy stack by any number of units - see 11.16 Land combat).
-- Land attack
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land Attack)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land Attack)
1x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission)
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions
Combined action
1x Rail movement (You can rail land units, factories, or aircraft units) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
1x Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation
-- Unlimited Naval transport
-- Unlimited Naval combat
2x Land movement
-- Land moves (a land move is the movement of 1 land unit - see 11.11 Land movement)
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Debarkation
1x Land attack (a land attack is an attack against 1 enemy stack by any number of units - see 11.16 Land combat)
-- Land attack
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land Attack)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land Attack)
3x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission)
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions
Each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission and 1x Land movement.
Each Paradrop counts as 1x Land attack.
University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
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Shannon V. OKeets
- Posts: 22165
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
- Contact:
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
I don't see a problem for the transport from the Commonwealth. On the first impulse it sails to the Bay of Biscay. On the second, the Commonwealth and France can only DOW Germany. On the third impulse the Italians DOW France and sail the convoy into Germany. If France has put some naval units in the North Sea, that could be a problem. But they have to have taken a Combined or Naval in the second impulse to have done that (or they could have placed a naval air unit in the North Sea!). Even then they only get one shot at the interception.ORIGINAL: composer99
I read through the thread earlier and didn't see that I'd mentioned it, so I will now. Apologies if I've already brought this up (might have in either the German or CW AI threads):
If Germany is planning a Sealion, one possible Italian tactic is, while neutral vis-à-vis the Commonwealth, to sail a transport through the Straits of Gibraltar into the Atlantic and rebase it to Germany during a subsequent impulse (Italy must be at war with someone to do this part, of course). You could do this with more than one transport.
Upside is that it increases available Axis sealift to invade the UK or support an invasion.
Downside is the decrease in flexibility in operating in the Med (especially if you sail all of Italy's lift out) - although this may not be as important as the CW may neglect reinforcing the Med to meet the threatened invasion.
Another downside is telegraphing Axis intentions.
Another downside is, unless the transport moves out on the very first impulse of the game and Italy enters the war on the second, there is a real threat of a CW declaration of war finding and sinking the transport (or aborting the transport, then intercepting it en route back to Germany thus sinking it - unless the CW player is me, in which case you're golden because he'll miss the initial search and every interception).
If, on the other hand, the Italians are participating in a kitchen-sink Barb, they may only need 1 transport to bring the army back from Africa, so in conjunction with some phanton German AMPH builds this might be a good way to feint the Commonwealth.
If France has been careful, there is still a chance of DOWing the Commonwealth instead and sailing the convoy around the top of Scotland and into Germany. Of course the Commonwealth could have placed units at sea to intercept.
It is probably worthwhile to simply sail the transport out on the first impulse, since there is nothing the Allies can do to harm it. If both the French and the Commonwealth occupy sea areas to intercept a return to base to Germany, then the transport can just sail back to Italy - no harm, no foul.
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
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Extraneous
- Posts: 1810
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:58 am
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
Lets look at Italy Declaring War on France.
Italian Combined action
1x Naval movement (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
3x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
Europe
Balbo (HQ-I), 4x (2) FTR 2, 2x (1) LND 3, 2x (1) NAV 2, and 4x Pilots
Aircraft type (Air to Air, Air to Sea, Tactical, Strategic bombing, and Range)
1935 - 1939
Italy has 12x LND types all with "Strategic bombing" factors.
Italy has 6x LND that are without "Air to Sea" factors.
BR.20 Cicogna (Stork) (1,0,3,3,9)
Ca.133 (1,0,1,2,6)
Ca.133 (0,0,1,2,6)
Ca.135 (1,0,2,3,5)
Ca.313 (2,0,2,1,5)
Ca.313 (1,0,2,1,5)
Italy has 6x LND that have "Air to Sea" factors.
BA.65 Lince (Lynx) (2,1,3,1,2)
BA.65 Lince (Lynx) (2,1,3,1,2)
SM.81 Pipistrello (Bat) (1,1,1,2,7)
SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,2,8)
SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,3,8)
Z.1007 Alcione (Kingfisher) (3,2,3,2,5)
Italy has 4x NAV types all having "Air to Sea" and "Strategic bombing" factors.
Z.501 Gabbiano (Gull) (0,2,1,1,11)
Z.501 Gabbiano (Gull) (1,2,1,1,11)
Z.501 Gabbiano (Gull) (1,2,1,1,11)
Z.506B Airone (Heron) (1,3,2,2,9)
Italy will have between 2 to 7 "Air to Sea" factors.
Italy will have between 1 to 8 "Strategic bombing" factors.
Frogmen attack
1. Since it's a surprise impulse only Italy rolls a "search roll".
2. The Italian Frogmen are considered to be in sea-box section 6.
3. If Italy's "search roll" greater than 6 the Frogmen are eliminated.
4. Italy executes the attack.
France has 1 CVL and 23 SCS in port for 24 ships (+1 with the TRS, +2 if you commit both submarines).
24 to 29 ships is the same chart so committing the French submarines would only be good for soaking up damage.
When Italian Frogmen (including surprise points) have an attack value of:
3 ~ 2 D and 3 A
4 ~ 1 X and 1 D
5 ~ 1 X, 1 D, and 3 A
6 ~ 1 X, 2 D, and 3 A
Port attack
France has 22 anti-aircraft factors cut in half to 11 anti-aircraft factors.
Carriers
Béarn 1
Barrleships
Bretagne 0, Dunkerque 2, Lorraine 1, Jean Bart 0, Provence 1, and Strasbourg 3
Heavy cruisers
Algerie 2, Colbert 1, Duguay Trouin 0, Dupleix 1, Duqesne 1, Foch 1, Primaguet 1, Suffren 1, and Tourville 0
Light cruisers
Emile Bertin 0, G. Leygues 1, Galissonniere 1, Gloire 1, Jean de Vienne 1, Jeanne D'Arc 0, Marseillaise 1, and Montcalm 1
Spending 4 surprise points negates French AA fire for a single bomber.
Spending 6 surprise points negates French AA fire for two bombers.
Sending more than two bombers will result in aborts so it is counter productive.
When Italy has an "Air to Sea" (including surprise points) attack value of:
2 ~ 1 D and 1 A
3 ~ 2 D and 3 A
4 ~ 1 X and 1 D
5 ~ 1 X, 1 D, and 3 A
6 to 7 ~ 1 X, 2 D, and 3 A
8 to 10 ~ 2 X, 1 D, and 1 A
Strategic bombing
One has been already added to the die roll since the bombers did not fight any air-to-air combat due to this being a surprise impulse.
When Italy has a "Strategic bombing" attack value of:
1 ~ 60% loss of zero production points or 40% loss of 1 production point
2 to 3 ~ 50% loss of zero production points, 50% loss of 1 production point
4 to 6 ~ 40% loss of zero production points, 60% loss of 1 production point
7 to 9 ~ 30% loss of zero production points, 60% loss of 1 production point, or 10% loss of 1 production points and 1 factory destroyed.
Summary
A dice roll above 6 destroys the Frogmen attack.
The Italian set up draw of LND decides what air attacks can be made.
An Italian draw of LND without "Air to Sea" factors or insufficient range means that the NAV would have to perform the Port attack alone.
An Italian draw of LND without "Strategic bombing" factors or insufficient range means that the NAV would have to perform Strategic bombing alone.
The Italian optimal draw for air attacks would be:
For the "Port attack":
The SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,2,8), or the SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,3,8), or the Z.1007 Alcione (Kingfisher) (3,2,3,2,5)
And the Z.506B Airone (Heron) (1,3,2,2,9)
3 ~ 2 D and 3 A
4 ~ 1 X and 1 D
5 ~ 1 X, 1 D, and 3 A
6 to 7 ~ 1 X, 2 D, and 3 A
For the "Strategic bombing":
The Ca.135 (1,0,2,3,5)
2 to 3 ~ 50% loss of zero production points, 50% loss of 1 production point
Italian Combined action
1x Naval movement (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
3x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
Europe
Balbo (HQ-I), 4x (2) FTR 2, 2x (1) LND 3, 2x (1) NAV 2, and 4x Pilots
Aircraft type (Air to Air, Air to Sea, Tactical, Strategic bombing, and Range)
1935 - 1939
Italy has 12x LND types all with "Strategic bombing" factors.
Italy has 6x LND that are without "Air to Sea" factors.
BR.20 Cicogna (Stork) (1,0,3,3,9)
Ca.133 (1,0,1,2,6)
Ca.133 (0,0,1,2,6)
Ca.135 (1,0,2,3,5)
Ca.313 (2,0,2,1,5)
Ca.313 (1,0,2,1,5)
Italy has 6x LND that have "Air to Sea" factors.
BA.65 Lince (Lynx) (2,1,3,1,2)
BA.65 Lince (Lynx) (2,1,3,1,2)
SM.81 Pipistrello (Bat) (1,1,1,2,7)
SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,2,8)
SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,3,8)
Z.1007 Alcione (Kingfisher) (3,2,3,2,5)
Italy has 4x NAV types all having "Air to Sea" and "Strategic bombing" factors.
Z.501 Gabbiano (Gull) (0,2,1,1,11)
Z.501 Gabbiano (Gull) (1,2,1,1,11)
Z.501 Gabbiano (Gull) (1,2,1,1,11)
Z.506B Airone (Heron) (1,3,2,2,9)
Italy will have between 2 to 7 "Air to Sea" factors.
Italy will have between 1 to 8 "Strategic bombing" factors.
15. Surprise
Aircraft units controlled by a major power declaring war, cannot be intercepted if they are flying:
A strategic bombardment mission against a hex controlled by a surprised major power or minor country; or
Any other mission exclusively against surprised units.
Anti-aircraft fire from units of a major power that is surprised is halved if directed exclusively against bombers controlled by a major power that declared war on it.
Naval units
If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points. The attacking major powers get the normal number (this will increase the number of net surprise points the attacker can spend, if there is any combat).
Overrun naval units are more likely to be captured or destroyed when surprised (see 11.11.6 Overruns).
Spending surprise points
Increase your column on the naval combat chart ~ 2 per column
Decrease your opponent’s anti-aircraft fire ~ 2 per column
22.4.3 Frogmen (AsA option 24)
Frogmen movement
You can rail move frogmen like a land unit (see 11.10).
You can also transport frogmen with a TRS (see 11.4.5) or an ATR (see 11.12).
Frogmen can also make a naval move but it must end in a port, friendly or enemy. Frogmen can end a move in an enemy port only if it started the move in supply.
Frogmen make their naval move just like a surface naval unit.
They can be intercepted (but not in the enemy port). If they are intercepted, they count as 1 surface naval unit for naval combat.
Frogmen combats
Frogmen’s special ability is to attack enemy naval units in the port they enter. Only one frogman may attack the same port in one impulse. After the attack, the frogmen are destroyed.
Frogmen attack in this way:
1. Both sides roll search dice (as in port attacks ~ see 11.2 Port attack). Frogmen are treated as being in a sea-box section equal to double their attack factors (in the blue circle);
2. If the frogmen’s search roll is higher than their section, they are destroyed before attacking;
3. The port’s owner can avoid the attack by spending 4 surprise points;
4. You execute the attack using the air-to-sea row (see 11.5.9 Naval air combat) of the naval combat chart. However, the owner chooses the first target, the frogman the second etc. (you can spend surprise points to alter the column or to select targets normally of course).
11.5.9 Naval air combat
For every 10 points in the total, the owner may choose to:
(a) Destroy 1 land-based bomber; or
(b) Destroy 2 carrier planes; or
(c) Destroy 1 carrier plane and abort 1 land-based bomber.
If there are 5 points left, the owner may choose to:
(a) Abort 1 land-based bomber; or
(b) Destroy 1 carrier plane.
For every remaining point in the total, 1 further air-to-sea factor does not press the attack.
Frogmen attack
1. Since it's a surprise impulse only Italy rolls a "search roll".
2. The Italian Frogmen are considered to be in sea-box section 6.
3. If Italy's "search roll" greater than 6 the Frogmen are eliminated.
4. Italy executes the attack.
France has 1 CVL and 23 SCS in port for 24 ships (+1 with the TRS, +2 if you commit both submarines).
24 to 29 ships is the same chart so committing the French submarines would only be good for soaking up damage.
When Italian Frogmen (including surprise points) have an attack value of:
3 ~ 2 D and 3 A
4 ~ 1 X and 1 D
5 ~ 1 X, 1 D, and 3 A
6 ~ 1 X, 2 D, and 3 A
Port attack
France has 22 anti-aircraft factors cut in half to 11 anti-aircraft factors.
Carriers
Béarn 1
Barrleships
Bretagne 0, Dunkerque 2, Lorraine 1, Jean Bart 0, Provence 1, and Strasbourg 3
Heavy cruisers
Algerie 2, Colbert 1, Duguay Trouin 0, Dupleix 1, Duqesne 1, Foch 1, Primaguet 1, Suffren 1, and Tourville 0
Light cruisers
Emile Bertin 0, G. Leygues 1, Galissonniere 1, Gloire 1, Jean de Vienne 1, Jeanne D'Arc 0, Marseillaise 1, and Montcalm 1
Spending 4 surprise points negates French AA fire for a single bomber.
Spending 6 surprise points negates French AA fire for two bombers.
Sending more than two bombers will result in aborts so it is counter productive.
When Italy has an "Air to Sea" (including surprise points) attack value of:
2 ~ 1 D and 1 A
3 ~ 2 D and 3 A
4 ~ 1 X and 1 D
5 ~ 1 X, 1 D, and 3 A
6 to 7 ~ 1 X, 2 D, and 3 A
8 to 10 ~ 2 X, 1 D, and 1 A
Strategic bombing
One has been already added to the die roll since the bombers did not fight any air-to-air combat due to this being a surprise impulse.
When Italy has a "Strategic bombing" attack value of:
1 ~ 60% loss of zero production points or 40% loss of 1 production point
2 to 3 ~ 50% loss of zero production points, 50% loss of 1 production point
4 to 6 ~ 40% loss of zero production points, 60% loss of 1 production point
7 to 9 ~ 30% loss of zero production points, 60% loss of 1 production point, or 10% loss of 1 production points and 1 factory destroyed.
Summary
A dice roll above 6 destroys the Frogmen attack.
The Italian set up draw of LND decides what air attacks can be made.
An Italian draw of LND without "Air to Sea" factors or insufficient range means that the NAV would have to perform the Port attack alone.
An Italian draw of LND without "Strategic bombing" factors or insufficient range means that the NAV would have to perform Strategic bombing alone.
The Italian optimal draw for air attacks would be:
For the "Port attack":
The SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,2,8), or the SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,3,8), or the Z.1007 Alcione (Kingfisher) (3,2,3,2,5)
And the Z.506B Airone (Heron) (1,3,2,2,9)
3 ~ 2 D and 3 A
4 ~ 1 X and 1 D
5 ~ 1 X, 1 D, and 3 A
6 to 7 ~ 1 X, 2 D, and 3 A
For the "Strategic bombing":
The Ca.135 (1,0,2,3,5)
2 to 3 ~ 50% loss of zero production points, 50% loss of 1 production point
University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
The question of on whom and when Italy should DOW is critical it sets the tone of the whole campaign. Just doing it for a good chance for ex a success full Strategic bombing is not good enough. Usually the main reasons for just declaring war on France for Italy are:
1) Avoid fighting with CW
--a. Might forcing CW to declare war on IT, possible gain US-entry
--b. possibly gaining a second chance for a new surprise round against CW with later declaration of war on CW (it might even be without a US-entry hit)
--c. Only face one navy instead of two
2) Getting IT to become an active major power
--a. letting GE resources to be sent to IT
--b. getting normal action limits
--c. easier to conquer minors
3) Attacking and FR minors and territory
4) Euro Axis concentrating on France
--a. Allowing GE troops to attack southern France
--b. Assisting GE to attack mainland France, possibly with air force only.
5) Attacking FR ships
6) Deploying GE troops to the Mediterranean
7) …
The downside is of course
--a The risk of more US Entry hits(when IT DOW CW)
--b Getting hit by a nasty surprise round (when CW DOW IT)
--c Not getting the chance to attack CW until war
The interesting choice on Land/Air/Naval and Combined action is tied in a mix of the
strategy/tactics and what possible gain is available and also closely based on preparations and
which Impulse the DOW comes.
Ex imaging if the French have garrisoned the Italian border poorly, the AIO should consider an
attack there instead of shipping troops to Libya. A bold Italian move could be to first do a
preparation impulse, like sailing out a SCS with a DIV on in the Med. Then during the real DOW
impulse he makes a land action moving and attacking FR in the Alps and making an invasion at
the same time.
Frogmen attack, Port attack are both good choices but due to that France often puts some of the best ships in ports out of reach it might only be minor gains.
The Italian draw during set up affects the possible gains during a first turn declaration of war but
only minor since the AIO strategic plan sets the base rules.
1) Avoid fighting with CW
--a. Might forcing CW to declare war on IT, possible gain US-entry
--b. possibly gaining a second chance for a new surprise round against CW with later declaration of war on CW (it might even be without a US-entry hit)
--c. Only face one navy instead of two
2) Getting IT to become an active major power
--a. letting GE resources to be sent to IT
--b. getting normal action limits
--c. easier to conquer minors
3) Attacking and FR minors and territory
4) Euro Axis concentrating on France
--a. Allowing GE troops to attack southern France
--b. Assisting GE to attack mainland France, possibly with air force only.
5) Attacking FR ships
6) Deploying GE troops to the Mediterranean
7) …
The downside is of course
--a The risk of more US Entry hits(when IT DOW CW)
--b Getting hit by a nasty surprise round (when CW DOW IT)
--c Not getting the chance to attack CW until war
The interesting choice on Land/Air/Naval and Combined action is tied in a mix of the
strategy/tactics and what possible gain is available and also closely based on preparations and
which Impulse the DOW comes.
Ex imaging if the French have garrisoned the Italian border poorly, the AIO should consider an
attack there instead of shipping troops to Libya. A bold Italian move could be to first do a
preparation impulse, like sailing out a SCS with a DIV on in the Med. Then during the real DOW
impulse he makes a land action moving and attacking FR in the Alps and making an invasion at
the same time.
Frogmen attack, Port attack are both good choices but due to that France often puts some of the best ships in ports out of reach it might only be minor gains.
The Italian draw during set up affects the possible gains during a first turn declaration of war but
only minor since the AIO strategic plan sets the base rules.
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
-
michaelbaldur
- Posts: 4806
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:28 pm
- Location: denmark
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
as I see it, port attacks against ports with big fleets are more or less point less.
the defence AA often give you more losses then you give.
you should use port attacks like a sniper, hitting high priced targets that are alone in ports.
so place a nav, have it hide. (dont use them) sooner or later the other players will make mistakes.
my biggest target was to CW transports. they sail them directly from UK to Malta. next impulse they were sunk [:D]
sound like nothing, but it was a no risk attack. and it cost CW 10 BP.
.
so my point is, port attacking the French fleet is a waste of time.
the wif rulebook is my bible
I work hard, not smart.
beta tester and Mwif expert
if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
I work hard, not smart.
beta tester and Mwif expert
if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur
as I see it, port attacks against ports with big fleets are more or less point less.
the defence AA often give you more losses then you give.
you should use port attacks like a sniper, hitting high priced targets that are alone in ports.
so place a nav, have it hide. (dont use them) sooner or later the other players will make mistakes.
my biggest target was to CW transports. they sail them directly from UK to Malta. next impulse they were sunk [:D]
sound like nothing, but it was a no risk attack. and it cost CW 10 BP.
.
so my point is, port attacking the French fleet is a waste of time.
You gave an important lesson to your opponent in that game: never sail TRS without a suitable escort if they can be attacked by the enemy. The loss of one or worse even two TRS early in the game is devastating to any MP who depends on those units for transporting land units. It isn't only the loss of BP but also the capability of building up units in various theaters can become a real problem.
Peter
-
michaelbaldur
- Posts: 4806
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:28 pm
- Location: denmark
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
ORIGINAL: Centuur
ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur
as I see it, port attacks against ports with big fleets are more or less point less.
the defence AA often give you more losses then you give.
you should use port attacks like a sniper, hitting high priced targets that are alone in ports.
so place a nav, have it hide. (dont use them) sooner or later the other players will make mistakes.
my biggest target was to CW transports. they sail them directly from UK to Malta. next impulse they were sunk [:D]
sound like nothing, but it was a no risk attack. and it cost CW 10 BP.
.
so my point is, port attacking the French fleet is a waste of time.
You gave an important lesson to your opponent in that game: never sail TRS without a suitable escort if they can be attacked by the enemy. The loss of one or worse even two TRS early in the game is devastating to any MP who depends on those units for transporting land units. It isn't only the loss of BP but also the capability of building up units in various theaters can become a real problem.
I have done it my self. I moved both Italian into the red sea.
then CW DOW me. and I never used them again
the wif rulebook is my bible
I work hard, not smart.
beta tester and Mwif expert
if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
I work hard, not smart.
beta tester and Mwif expert
if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
Continuing the question of on whom and when Italy should DOW on, case CW only. Usually the main reasons for just declaring war on CW for Italy are:
1) Avoid fighting with France
--a. In som small cases forcing FR to declare war on IT, possible gain US-entry
--b. possibly gaining a second chance for a new surprise round against FR with later declaration of war on FR (it might even be without a US-entry hit)
--c. Only face one navy instead of two
2) Getting IT to become an active major power
--a. letting GE resources to be sent to IT
--b. getting normal action limits
--c. easier to conquer minors
3) Attacking and CW minors and territory
4) Euro Axis concentrating on CW
--a. Deploying GE troops to the Mediterranean (possibly to be able to also attack FR holdings)
--b. Assisting GE to attack BEF in France/Belgium, possibly with air force only.
5) Attacking CW ships
6) Allowing GE troops to attack southern France
7) …
The downside is of course
--a The risk of more US Entry hits if IT DOW FR
--b Getting hit by a surprise round (if FR DOW IT)
--c Not getting the chance to attack FR until war
1) Avoid fighting with France
--a. In som small cases forcing FR to declare war on IT, possible gain US-entry
--b. possibly gaining a second chance for a new surprise round against FR with later declaration of war on FR (it might even be without a US-entry hit)
--c. Only face one navy instead of two
2) Getting IT to become an active major power
--a. letting GE resources to be sent to IT
--b. getting normal action limits
--c. easier to conquer minors
3) Attacking and CW minors and territory
4) Euro Axis concentrating on CW
--a. Deploying GE troops to the Mediterranean (possibly to be able to also attack FR holdings)
--b. Assisting GE to attack BEF in France/Belgium, possibly with air force only.
5) Attacking CW ships
6) Allowing GE troops to attack southern France
7) …
The downside is of course
--a The risk of more US Entry hits if IT DOW FR
--b Getting hit by a surprise round (if FR DOW IT)
--c Not getting the chance to attack FR until war
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
While brainstorming for Strategic plans for Italy I got side tracked due to the fact the Italian strategic planning is heavy dependent on which Grand Strategic plan Germany has chosen. So Italy needs to choose and reevaluate its plan in according to how Germany is going to deal with its strategic problem of France, the USSR, the United Kingdom, and the Mediterranean. Of course Italy also need to have a plan to help support the current Grand Strategic plan.
German Grand Strategic Plans
A. Historical: Poland, France, then Barbarossa and North Africa
B. Massive Barbarossa(kitchen sink): Poland, France then Barbarossa with Italian air support
C. Close the Mediterranean and Barbarossa: Poland, France, Close the Med, then Barbarossa
D. Close the Mediterranean and Sea Lion: Poland, France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
E. Sealion and Barbarossa: Poland, France, Sealion, then Barbarossa
F. France First, Close the Mediterranean and East option: France, Close the Med, then Barbarossa option or USSR sitzkrieg
G. France First, Sealion and East option: France, Sealion, then Barbarossa option or USSR sitzkrieg
H. France First, Close the Mediterranean and Sealion: France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
I. France First, 1940 Barbarossa and North Africa: France, then Barbarossa and North Africa
J. France First , 1940 Massive Barbarossa(kitchen sink): France, then Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support
K. Immediate Barbarossa: Poland, France sitzkrieg and 1940 Barbarossa
L. Immediate Massive Barbarossa(kitchen sink): Immediate Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support
M. Close the Mediterranean and Middle-East: Poland, France, Close the Med, then Middle-East(Syria,Iraq,Iran), USSR sitzkrieg.
N. Big Middle-Eastern Barbarossa: Poland, France, Close the Med, Syria then Turkey and a Barbarossa(even though the USSR might declare war first), possible also Iraq and Iran
O. Small Middle-Eastern Barbarossa: Poland, France, North Africa,Syria, then Turkey and a Barbarossa(even though the USSR might declare war first) , possible also Iraq and Iran
Strategic plans need from Italy to support German Grand Strategic Plans
A. Barbarossa with Massive Air support( kitchen sink):
B. Close the Mediterranean
C. Sea Lion
D. France
E. France First
F. North Africa
G. Middle-East
H. Barbarossa
Have I missed anything? (Of course there are some more Strategic plan for Italy, but they are not tied to German Grand Strategic plans)
German Grand Strategic Plans
A. Historical: Poland, France, then Barbarossa and North Africa
B. Massive Barbarossa(kitchen sink): Poland, France then Barbarossa with Italian air support
C. Close the Mediterranean and Barbarossa: Poland, France, Close the Med, then Barbarossa
D. Close the Mediterranean and Sea Lion: Poland, France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
E. Sealion and Barbarossa: Poland, France, Sealion, then Barbarossa
F. France First, Close the Mediterranean and East option: France, Close the Med, then Barbarossa option or USSR sitzkrieg
G. France First, Sealion and East option: France, Sealion, then Barbarossa option or USSR sitzkrieg
H. France First, Close the Mediterranean and Sealion: France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
I. France First, 1940 Barbarossa and North Africa: France, then Barbarossa and North Africa
J. France First , 1940 Massive Barbarossa(kitchen sink): France, then Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support
K. Immediate Barbarossa: Poland, France sitzkrieg and 1940 Barbarossa
L. Immediate Massive Barbarossa(kitchen sink): Immediate Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support
M. Close the Mediterranean and Middle-East: Poland, France, Close the Med, then Middle-East(Syria,Iraq,Iran), USSR sitzkrieg.
N. Big Middle-Eastern Barbarossa: Poland, France, Close the Med, Syria then Turkey and a Barbarossa(even though the USSR might declare war first), possible also Iraq and Iran
O. Small Middle-Eastern Barbarossa: Poland, France, North Africa,Syria, then Turkey and a Barbarossa(even though the USSR might declare war first) , possible also Iraq and Iran
Strategic plans need from Italy to support German Grand Strategic Plans
A. Barbarossa with Massive Air support( kitchen sink):
B. Close the Mediterranean
C. Sea Lion
D. France
E. France First
F. North Africa
G. Middle-East
H. Barbarossa
Have I missed anything? (Of course there are some more Strategic plan for Italy, but they are not tied to German Grand Strategic plans)
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
-
Extraneous
- Posts: 1810
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:58 am
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
peskpesk don't get the wrong impression I think your outline is well thought out and a good rough draft.
I hope you don't mind my editing of it.
German Grand Strategy
The Polish Campaign a compulsory declaration and the Danish Campaign to close the Baltic Sea.
Germany grand strategy needs to establish its priority as either "the Eastern Front (the USSR)" or "the Western Front (France)" .
Priority: "the Eastern Front (the USSR)" and "All quiet on the Western Front (France and the Mediterranean)"
"The Barbarossa Campaign" (A.K.A. the Great Patriotic War)
A. Barbarossa (the kitchen sink).
B. Barbarossa 1940.
Priority: "the Western Front (France)"
The French Campaign followed by:
C. Historical: North Africa (June 10, 1940 to May 13, 1943) then Barbarossa (June 22, 1941 to May 9, 1945)
D. Barbarossa (the kitchen sink).
E. Sealion followed by "the Eastern Front option".
F. Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower) followed by "the Eastern Front option".
G. Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower) followed by Sealion.
H. "Middle East Campaign" (Large): Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower), Syria, Turkey, then Barbarossa.
I. "Middle East Campaign" (Small): North Africa, Syria, Turkey, then Barbarossa.
The French Campaign along with:
J. The Two Front War: Barbarossa (the kitchen sink).
K. Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower) then Barbarossa.
L. Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower) then Sealion.
M. Close the Mediterranean (Operation Sunflower) then the Middle East (Syria, Iraq, Iran) followed by "the Eastern Front" option.
N. Sealion then Barbarossa (the kitchen sink).
O. The Three Front War: Barbarossa 1940 and North Africa
Italy needs to support all German Grand Strategies with the exceptions of the Polish Campaign, the Danish Campaign, and any Northern European Campaigns.
Notes:
"The Eastern Front option" ~ is Barbarossa or an optional German/USSR sitzkrieg or Phony War.
Each "Middle East Campaign" includes:
The Possible declarations of war on or alignment of Iraq and Iran; and
That the USSR might declare war on Germany first.
Barbarossa ~ War with the USSR
Barbarossa 1940 ~ Germany declares war on the USSR in 1940
Barbarossa (the kitchen sink) ~ land and air units are prioritized to the war with the USSR.
Questions
With option A: Barbarossa (the kitchen sink) does Germany continue through Poland (not waiting for conquest) into the USSR?
With Priority: "the Western Front (France)" when do the Low Countries (Belgium and the Netherlands) come into play?
University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
MALTA (Historical name Operation Herkules (Italian amphibious landing supported by German airborne forces (Fallschirmjäger) to take Malta)
Below is a rough outcast on how the AIO could reason over Malta when not at war with CW (other factors not mention below are of course too important, ex US Entry, Situation with France, German strategy etc.).
CW Situation:
• At peace
Primary Plan: With medium probability consider declaring war on the CW if Malta could be taken without having to cut supply to the island first.
Secondary Plan: With low probability consider declaring war on the CW if Malta could be taken but needs to have its supply cut first.
Modifications:
- Increased DOW probability if CW has navy at Malta.
- Slightly decreased DOW probability if Malta is in supply.
- Increased DOW probability if Malta is not in supply.
- Decreased DOW probability if Italy is at war with France.
- Slightly decreased DOW probability if Malta heavy defended
- …
• Malta Undefended
Primary Plan: DOW CW and invade it during the surprise impulse.
Secondary Plan: DOW CW and Paradrop it during the surprise impulse.
Backup Plan:
• Malta weak defended (Div/brigade, ex Royal engineers)
Primary Plan: DOW CW and invade it during the surprise impulse.
Secondary Plan: DOW CW and paradrop it during the surprise impulse.
Backup Plan: DOW CW, try to cut supply and then do Primary Plan or Secondary Plan or both if attack force not strong enough.
• Malta defended (1-2 CORP/ARMY/DIV/brigade black print, ex 5-4 INF)
Primary Plan: DOW CW and try to cut supply, try to disrupt the defenders with ground strikes then Invade, if possible during the surprise impulse.
Secondary Plan: DOW CW and try to cut supply, try to disrupt the defenders with ground strikes then paradrop, if possible during the surprise impulse.
Backup Plan: DOW CW, try to cut supply, try disrupt the defenders with ground strikes, and then do Primary Plan or Secondary Plan or both if attack force not strong enough.
• Malta heavy defended (1-2 CORP/ARMY/DIV/brigade at least one white print, ex 6-4 INF)
Primary Plan: DOW CW and try to cut supply, try to disrupt the defenders with ground strikes then Invade, if possible during the surprise impulse.
Secondary Plan: DOW CW and try to cut supply, try to disrupt the defenders with ground strikes then paradrop, if possible during the surprise impulse.
Backup Plan: DOW CW, try to cut supply; try to disrupt the defenders with ground strikes, and then do Primary Plan and Secondary Plan if attack force not strong enough.
• Malta has air cover (1-2 FTR/TAC/NAV, ex one 5 factor FTR)
Primary Plan: DOW CW when superior air force in position and ready to handle enemy planes, then depending on the situation continue with one of the appropriate plans.
Secondary Plan: DOW CW and try to cut supply, and then depending on then depending on the situation continue with one of the appropriate plans.
Backup Plan: DOW CW, try to disrupt the enemy plans with ground strikes, and then depending on the situation continue with one of the appropriate plans.
During all plans is naval ground support and escorts needed considered, air ground support and escort is also considered.
Things to ponder over:
1) How do you think the AIO should plan the assault?
2) What is the rough minimum forces estimate need for Italy to have ready in order to fulfill the needs of a Plan? Ex if Malta is undefended and SCS invasion are allowed the minimum force needed to do the Primary Plan could be: 1 Inf Div and 1 CA.
3) What situations could affect the DOW probabilities?
4) What options affect how the AIO should plan the assault?
5) How to cut the supply to Malta
6) What quick reactions can the Allies do when the Axis are attacking Malta?
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
-
brian brian
- Posts: 3191
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39 pm
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
The AIO has to decide during set-up if it might want to to do this, by breaking down a corps for extra divisions to invade with.
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
I always recommend that Italy breaks down an army into to two DIVs (if possible) during setup.
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
Which major powers Italy declares war on is heavy dependent on which Grand Strategic plan Germany has chosen. But the most interesting and dynamic choice Italy has is DOWing France and/or the CW and when to enter the war. Each strategy has its own advantage and disadvantage, below I have just tried to summarize the France and/or the CW choice.
France only:
Advantage:
- Gibraltar and Suez open
- Germany can attack the Alps with Italian support
- German units can relatively safely be ship to North Africa (French navy is a lesser threat)
- British fleet left out before war
- Invasion\naval ground support in southern France possible(French navy is a lesser threat)
- Invasion of Syria (possibly activation of Iraq)
- Invasion of Algeria (Algerian resource, even march to Morocco) possible
- Capture of Tunisia with a march from Libya
- Port attack on French fleet might be possible (Bern, TRS)
- Possible blocking/attacks on French reinforcements returning to France
- Attack French Somaliland
- Attack Corsica
- Attack French Alps
- Fewer French units possible to be sent home to France
- Possible attacks on French convoys
- Italian units (often air units) can be sent to aid Germany against France
- Catch FR navy at sea during surprise
Disadvantage:
- Risk of a nasty surprise attack by CW
- Possibly second U.S. entry-roll required
- A large BEF possible to be sent to French aide
- CW has time to reinforce Mediterranean holdings before war with Italy
- Small use of frogmen (only Bern, TRS important targets)
- German units in North Africa have trouble with supply if CW acts (only presence in sea area need to block supply)
- Multiple states war of is often more complicated and different tactics/strategies may apply (Ex If Italy is at war with France, Italy can attack Commonwealth forces in France, even though Italy and Commonwealth is not at war)
CW only:
Advantage:
- Germany can attack the French Alps (without Italian support)
- French fleet left out before war
- Invasion of Malta
- Invasion of Cyprus
- Invasion of Egypt
- Invasion of Palestine
- Invasion of Gibraltar
- using Frogmen for lucrative targets (TRS, CV)
- Possible attacks on CW convoys
- Blockade of the Mediterranean
- Attack Anglo-Egyptian Sudan
- Fewer BEF units possible to be sent to French aide
- You may never need to declare war on France (Germany can defeat them without support, no risk for Italy)
- German forces may be shipped to Libya to Attack CW or FR holdings
- May get second surprise, with a DOW on CW
- Italian units (often air units) can be sent to aid Germany against the CW
- Catch CW navy at sea during surprise
Disadvantage:
- Risk of a surprise attack by the French
- Possibly second U.S. entry-roll required
- Risk of not having time to capture French holdings in the Med before Vichy government is installed
- German units in North Africa has trouble with supply if FR acts (only presence in sea area need to block supply)
- Multiple states of war is often more complicated and different tactics/strategies may apply (Ex If Italy is at war with France, Italy can attack Commonwealth forces in France, even though Italy and Commonwealth is not at war)
- No Italian aid to Germany against the France
CW and France:
Advantage:
- Only one U.S. entry-roll
- Invasion of Syria and attack from Libya Syria allows a simultaneous pincer attack on Suez
- No risk of nasty surprise attack
- German units in North Africa has no trouble with supply
- No Multiple states of war, less complicated tactics/strategies
- Catch CW/FR navy at sea during surprise
Disadvantage:
- Risk of facing a combined CW/FR fleet
- Italian plans more difficult to implement due to heavier resistance in the Med
- Due to low activities limits risk Italy can’t use the surprise to its full extent, targets may slip away. Compare with two DOWs at different time.
Any thoughts on when to use either choice or when Italy should enter the war?
France only:
Advantage:
- Gibraltar and Suez open
- Germany can attack the Alps with Italian support
- German units can relatively safely be ship to North Africa (French navy is a lesser threat)
- British fleet left out before war
- Invasion\naval ground support in southern France possible(French navy is a lesser threat)
- Invasion of Syria (possibly activation of Iraq)
- Invasion of Algeria (Algerian resource, even march to Morocco) possible
- Capture of Tunisia with a march from Libya
- Port attack on French fleet might be possible (Bern, TRS)
- Possible blocking/attacks on French reinforcements returning to France
- Attack French Somaliland
- Attack Corsica
- Attack French Alps
- Fewer French units possible to be sent home to France
- Possible attacks on French convoys
- Italian units (often air units) can be sent to aid Germany against France
- Catch FR navy at sea during surprise
Disadvantage:
- Risk of a nasty surprise attack by CW
- Possibly second U.S. entry-roll required
- A large BEF possible to be sent to French aide
- CW has time to reinforce Mediterranean holdings before war with Italy
- Small use of frogmen (only Bern, TRS important targets)
- German units in North Africa have trouble with supply if CW acts (only presence in sea area need to block supply)
- Multiple states war of is often more complicated and different tactics/strategies may apply (Ex If Italy is at war with France, Italy can attack Commonwealth forces in France, even though Italy and Commonwealth is not at war)
CW only:
Advantage:
- Germany can attack the French Alps (without Italian support)
- French fleet left out before war
- Invasion of Malta
- Invasion of Cyprus
- Invasion of Egypt
- Invasion of Palestine
- Invasion of Gibraltar
- using Frogmen for lucrative targets (TRS, CV)
- Possible attacks on CW convoys
- Blockade of the Mediterranean
- Attack Anglo-Egyptian Sudan
- Fewer BEF units possible to be sent to French aide
- You may never need to declare war on France (Germany can defeat them without support, no risk for Italy)
- German forces may be shipped to Libya to Attack CW or FR holdings
- May get second surprise, with a DOW on CW
- Italian units (often air units) can be sent to aid Germany against the CW
- Catch CW navy at sea during surprise
Disadvantage:
- Risk of a surprise attack by the French
- Possibly second U.S. entry-roll required
- Risk of not having time to capture French holdings in the Med before Vichy government is installed
- German units in North Africa has trouble with supply if FR acts (only presence in sea area need to block supply)
- Multiple states of war is often more complicated and different tactics/strategies may apply (Ex If Italy is at war with France, Italy can attack Commonwealth forces in France, even though Italy and Commonwealth is not at war)
- No Italian aid to Germany against the France
CW and France:
Advantage:
- Only one U.S. entry-roll
- Invasion of Syria and attack from Libya Syria allows a simultaneous pincer attack on Suez
- No risk of nasty surprise attack
- German units in North Africa has no trouble with supply
- No Multiple states of war, less complicated tactics/strategies
- Catch CW/FR navy at sea during surprise
Disadvantage:
- Risk of facing a combined CW/FR fleet
- Italian plans more difficult to implement due to heavier resistance in the Med
- Due to low activities limits risk Italy can’t use the surprise to its full extent, targets may slip away. Compare with two DOWs at different time.
Any thoughts on when to use either choice or when Italy should enter the war?
"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
-
brian brian
- Posts: 3191
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39 pm
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
Well peskpesk you certainly work hard on these questions, thank you.
I hate to do it, but I would suggest the script-writer has to answer another question first. Defining the Axis war aims comes before Italian DOW policy, sure.
You set that up well several posts ago. But how much Italy will support Germany is part of a question that has been part of this thread for all 8 years it has been here - will the Italian AI act like a German minor ally, as many players will command the Italian pieces? (And they would certainly be free to do so against an Allied AI.) Will the AI play as in a multi-player game, or as in a 2-player game? Will there be a switch a player can set for the AI to play "non-historically", possibly to a radical degree?
I can't recall if those questions have ever been answered. But the idea of the Italy AI not declaring war on the Allies, keeping their army in Italy, carefully withdrawing a gun and INF from Libya whenever the CW CV aren't looking, and building all air units to bomb Russians (i.e. playing to the game system, which rewards this) ... will cause waves with some people. (Not me).
Leaving that aside, there is that option of no DOW on the Western Allies at all. Radical, but possible.
If Germany wants to take Gibraltar, I think Italy should go all in on the first turn. Break down the MTN corps at set-up and invade Oran if the French leave it empty, via a dual DOW. That is the best Italian strategy. Pressure the Gibraltar front as soon as possible. Not as much surprise-bang against the CW unless their CVs are out in the West Med already, looking to Pearl Harbor you, then things can get interesting. But more economical on US Entry, and avoids CW surprise strike later. That is the best solution to adding all those pluses and minuses, imo.
There is one Axis grand strategy that ties all 3 Axis countries together. Poland-France-Gibraltar-Middle East-Russia. That was somewhat on the list, but I just wanted to emphasize the Middle East part. The Axis not only closes the Med, but takes all 6 oil in the Middle East. This works better with a Japanese commitment in the Indian Ocean for a time to help defend the southern flank of the Middle East, for which they can be paid with some oil. Then a 2 front 1942 Barbarossa, grinding up the Red Army as much as possible and taking the Ukraine, but with some of the choicest Axis resources (and O-Chits) deployed to break into Russia from the south to align Turkey, further strengthening the possible defense of the Middle East to keep that oil flowing to Axis storage tanks. If the Axis get all of that oil for enough turns (quite possibly overlooked by the Allies fixated on breaking back into the Med from the west), they might be able to build a strong enough war machine to withstand the USA, even without pushing the Russians off the European map. A very active strategy for Italy all the way through. One of 2 that can tie Euro-Axis and Japanese strategy together, along with a more straight-forward Conquer Russia strategic goal.
I hate to do it, but I would suggest the script-writer has to answer another question first. Defining the Axis war aims comes before Italian DOW policy, sure.
You set that up well several posts ago. But how much Italy will support Germany is part of a question that has been part of this thread for all 8 years it has been here - will the Italian AI act like a German minor ally, as many players will command the Italian pieces? (And they would certainly be free to do so against an Allied AI.) Will the AI play as in a multi-player game, or as in a 2-player game? Will there be a switch a player can set for the AI to play "non-historically", possibly to a radical degree?
I can't recall if those questions have ever been answered. But the idea of the Italy AI not declaring war on the Allies, keeping their army in Italy, carefully withdrawing a gun and INF from Libya whenever the CW CV aren't looking, and building all air units to bomb Russians (i.e. playing to the game system, which rewards this) ... will cause waves with some people. (Not me).
Leaving that aside, there is that option of no DOW on the Western Allies at all. Radical, but possible.
If Germany wants to take Gibraltar, I think Italy should go all in on the first turn. Break down the MTN corps at set-up and invade Oran if the French leave it empty, via a dual DOW. That is the best Italian strategy. Pressure the Gibraltar front as soon as possible. Not as much surprise-bang against the CW unless their CVs are out in the West Med already, looking to Pearl Harbor you, then things can get interesting. But more economical on US Entry, and avoids CW surprise strike later. That is the best solution to adding all those pluses and minuses, imo.
There is one Axis grand strategy that ties all 3 Axis countries together. Poland-France-Gibraltar-Middle East-Russia. That was somewhat on the list, but I just wanted to emphasize the Middle East part. The Axis not only closes the Med, but takes all 6 oil in the Middle East. This works better with a Japanese commitment in the Indian Ocean for a time to help defend the southern flank of the Middle East, for which they can be paid with some oil. Then a 2 front 1942 Barbarossa, grinding up the Red Army as much as possible and taking the Ukraine, but with some of the choicest Axis resources (and O-Chits) deployed to break into Russia from the south to align Turkey, further strengthening the possible defense of the Middle East to keep that oil flowing to Axis storage tanks. If the Axis get all of that oil for enough turns (quite possibly overlooked by the Allies fixated on breaking back into the Med from the west), they might be able to build a strong enough war machine to withstand the USA, even without pushing the Russians off the European map. A very active strategy for Italy all the way through. One of 2 that can tie Euro-Axis and Japanese strategy together, along with a more straight-forward Conquer Russia strategic goal.
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Shannon V. OKeets
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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
Brian,
The AIO will play as one unified opponent. However, there are many reasons why the decision making should be fragmented. I would argue that human opponents do that all the time.
The decisions aren't what sea areas should the Allied side occupy this turn, but rather what sea areas should the Commonwealth, then the French, then the US, then the ... occupy. Even more fragmentation takes place with the Atlantic and the Pacific being viewed as virtually separate decision making processes at the operational and tactical level. The are overall strategic decisions, but they are also made for each major power in turn. Merging all the units on one side into tactical plans is rare. The rules force the players to think n terms of action limits, build points, force pools, and the like. All of those are per major power.
The AIO will play as one unified opponent. However, there are many reasons why the decision making should be fragmented. I would argue that human opponents do that all the time.
The decisions aren't what sea areas should the Allied side occupy this turn, but rather what sea areas should the Commonwealth, then the French, then the US, then the ... occupy. Even more fragmentation takes place with the Atlantic and the Pacific being viewed as virtually separate decision making processes at the operational and tactical level. The are overall strategic decisions, but they are also made for each major power in turn. Merging all the units on one side into tactical plans is rare. The rules force the players to think n terms of action limits, build points, force pools, and the like. All of those are per major power.
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
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brian brian
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- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39 pm
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy
I would agree completely Steve. But all those decisions flow from a root decision of what are the Axis/Allies aiming to do in the war. (Axis - break the CW or break Russia or sitzkrieg it and make the Allies break them; Allies - Japan first or Europe first).
Using the Italians as an independent air force in Russia is a very powerful combination of strategy & tactics, but is a WiF game system strategy only for the most part, and players do just that - merging a lot of one country's units into another's tactical plans. It is a well known part of the game amongst regular players.
Mussolini famously asked for a lot of raw materials from Germany. Perhaps had the Germans agreed to that, he would have agreed to merely fly panes while German boots controlled all conquests and got all the glory and his army sat in Italy. Doesn't sound like even a well paid-off Mussolini to me. It is a famous part of the study of possible ways the Axis could have won the war (a reason we all play wargames) "If only Italy and Germany had a more unified strategy..." So programming their 2 AI's has to answer the question of just how unified will it make them and how much the AI will play to the action limits game system vs. playing to a more rational appearing set of tactics. The AI will have to defend itself from such tactics.
Some western Allied teams will mimic that with a large RAF backing a potent US Army. Would Churchill go for that?
Although I would be OK seeing the AI I am playing use such tricks, not all customers would be. The old idea of having a switch that could be set on this topic is a valid idea.
Right from the first turn of deciding to issue an Italian DOW, or what units the Italians build and where they put them; this part of World in Flames comes into play for writing an AI to do it.
Using the Italians as an independent air force in Russia is a very powerful combination of strategy & tactics, but is a WiF game system strategy only for the most part, and players do just that - merging a lot of one country's units into another's tactical plans. It is a well known part of the game amongst regular players.
Mussolini famously asked for a lot of raw materials from Germany. Perhaps had the Germans agreed to that, he would have agreed to merely fly panes while German boots controlled all conquests and got all the glory and his army sat in Italy. Doesn't sound like even a well paid-off Mussolini to me. It is a famous part of the study of possible ways the Axis could have won the war (a reason we all play wargames) "If only Italy and Germany had a more unified strategy..." So programming their 2 AI's has to answer the question of just how unified will it make them and how much the AI will play to the action limits game system vs. playing to a more rational appearing set of tactics. The AI will have to defend itself from such tactics.
Some western Allied teams will mimic that with a large RAF backing a potent US Army. Would Churchill go for that?
Although I would be OK seeing the AI I am playing use such tricks, not all customers would be. The old idea of having a switch that could be set on this topic is a valid idea.
Right from the first turn of deciding to issue an Italian DOW, or what units the Italians build and where they put them; this part of World in Flames comes into play for writing an AI to do it.