The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
John's Most Recent Email Message:  "SOOOOOOOOOOO close. Excellent idea Sir!  Time to re=start the Steamroller. Haven’t doing much STEAMING OR ROLLING but that is OK. Time to change this.  Home and working on the garage. We’ll be able to do 2-3 tomorrow."

I'm confused. This note from a few days ago suggests a re-starting of general offensives. Now you say you received a message from John-2 days later-that he's terminating offensive operations? What's going on?

Now that you bring it up, the "SOOOOOOOO close" and talk of "STEAMROLLERING" seems eerily prescient given CR's experiences today! [X(]

[paullus99]

An opponent is most dangerous when he appears to be at his most vulnerable........

[obvert]

John's Morale: My opponent has basically admitted he's shutting down major offensive operations. It's only March 1942. Said opponent has stopped updating his AAR weeks ago. This is a similar pattern to what I encountered vs. PzH and Q-Ball. Do I have some kind of subconcious ability for putting my opponents to sleep? (I actually think John will be fine; I think he's concluded that Reluctant Admiral gives him the ability to fight over the long haul rather than "up front." I hope so anyway.)

Some of this might come from your stated interest in playing someone capable of auto-vic. This already sets them up for disillusionment before the game begins. Anyone who is capable of it thus thinks they should be the one to prove it can be done, and this pushes them past normal operational tempo, thus forgetting to do the necessary things first. This was the case with Chez, with PzH, but Q-Ball to his credit actually did do first things first, then stretched himself so far in the attempt to reach the mark and due to your tough defense he couldn't come back from it.

John has stated elsewhere that this mod gives him more tools to fight with but at an economic cost that makes it harder to manage the Empire into the later years. It is a scenario built for fun early forays and lots of conquest, in essence for achieving auto-vic, but not so much for a defensive game where he hasn't won extra oil/fuel/supply centers and hasn't depleted Allied material.

If you want this game to progress past mid-43 you might have some conversations with him about his mind-set, not updating his AAR, the comments he has made in apparent desperation about the land war, and make sure he's still with you and ready to go for the long haul. It might just juggle his expectations a bit and make sure he buys into this new game that isn't what he had hoped it would be.

[GreyJoy]

That's why i don't think looking for an auto-victory is the right way to attend to this game in a Pbem match.
A match must be fun for both players and, for the allies, the real fun arrives from 1943 on. So any japanese player should, as he starts playing a pbem match, ask himself: "Am i ready to fight when things will become blue?"
And to do that, imho, the Jap player should never look for auto victory: the goal should always be to estabilish a defensive perimeter that allows you to last as long as possible. So even the offensive adventures of 1942 should be only seen as a way to fortify your defences, nothing more.
 
 

[Houtje]

Belatedly: glad to hear you and yours are OK, CR. Most 'excitement' we usually get over here is, say, our queen announcing her abdication. As for auto-vic, Greyjoy: I think CR relishes the thrill of having it on the board, and I agree: knowing that whatever happens and however far you withdraw, you will be there to bounce back after Dec. 31 1942 does seem to relieve that tension a bit too much.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

That's why i don't think looking for an auto-victory is the right way to attend to this game in a Pbem match.
A match must be fun for both players and, for the allies, the real fun arrives from 1943 on. So any japanese player should, as he starts playing a pbem match, ask himself: "Am i ready to fight when things will become blue?"
And to do that, imho, the Jap player should never look for auto victory: the goal should always be to estabilish a defensive perimeter that allows you to last as long as possible. So even the offensive adventures of 1942 should be only seen as a way to fortify your defences, nothing more.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (you young guys look it up [:)]) I will trot out once again:

The Allied player MUST win an auto-vic. Under the game design there is no other way for him to win. The Japanese player must only survive to achieve at least a draw. The Allied player must win, not just not-lose.

From the Japanese side then there are multiple ways to proceed. He can try for an auto-vic himself after 1/1/1943. Or he can play for a draw. Or he can play to win by not losing. This presupposes, however, that the Japanese player does not adopt this somewhat bizarre notion that they "are not playing for VPs." Which I believe John has announced. If Japan is "playing for the experience" many Japanese players will quit when the "experience" of blowing things up and breaking things becomes less intense. OTOH, if they are playing to win THE GAME this transition period is immaterial. When Japan transitions to defense the game experience changes, but it is still challenging, and above all, if one is true to the game design, it is still very possible to win the game.

IMO, any Allied player seeking a PBEM partner should well understand the exact position of his opponent on the GAME, not the war. As well as the Japanese player's position on whether Japanese auto-vic is "easier" to try than a traditional Japanese game winning strategy of survival.

[Bullwinkle58]

CR, to add a coda to yesterday's events, in our local paper here the AP newswire story included a few quotes from a female employee of Owens BBQ who was a resident of the restrooom with your sons.

[Crackaces]

I noted that the weather channel did not seek our articulate 'penmeister' CanoeRebel .. but ..

You know you're a redneck if : If you have appeared on TV more than 7 times just to explain a tornado.

[:D]

I think CR's rendition of this story would have been a lot more interesting that the wild eyed look of the poor man they interviewed .then again that look told the story ...[:(]

There are no atheist in a free fire zone .. ... or a tornado ..

[;)]

Right now the Weather channel is reporting the Adirsville event as an EF2 [there is a new scale called the Enhanced Fujita scale that is highly weighted on damage alone rather than doppler wind speeds that are often not as accurate in describing the real energy expressed] .. My prayers with the community .. . Think the terror of a F5 ... [&o]

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

That's why i don't think looking for an auto-victory is the right way to attend to this game in a Pbem match.
A match must be fun for both players and, for the allies, the real fun arrives from 1943 on. So any japanese player should, as he starts playing a pbem match, ask himself: "Am i ready to fight when things will become blue?"
And to do that, imho, the Jap player should never look for auto victory: the goal should always be to estabilish a defensive perimeter that allows you to last as long as possible. So even the offensive adventures of 1942 should be only seen as a way to fortify your defences, nothing more.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (you young guys look it up [:)]) I will trot out once again:

The Allied player MUST win an auto-vic. Under the game design there is no other way for him to win. The Japanese player must only survive to achieve at least a draw. The Allied player must win, not just not-lose.

From the Japanese side then there are multiple ways to proceed. He can try for an auto-vic himself after 1/1/1943. Or he can play for a draw. Or he can play to win by not losing. This presupposes, however, that the Japanese player does not adopt this somewhat bizarre notion that they "are not playing for VPs." Which I believe John has announced. If Japan is "playing for the experience" many Japanese players will quit when the "experience" of blowing things up and breaking things becomes less intense. OTOH, if they are playing to win THE GAME this transition period is immaterial. When Japan transitions to defense the game experience changes, but it is still challenging, and above all, if one is true to the game design, it is still very possible to win the game.

IMO, any Allied player seeking a PBEM partner should well understand the exact position of his opponent on the GAME, not the war. As well as the Japanese player's position on whether Japanese auto-vic is "easier" to try than a traditional Japanese game winning strategy of survival.

There is one other hope .. the Allies use more than 2 A-bombs .. [;)] Automatic victory for the IJ .. [8D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

That's why i don't think looking for an auto-victory is the right way to attend to this game in a Pbem match.
A match must be fun for both players and, for the allies, the real fun arrives from 1943 on. So any japanese player should, as he starts playing a pbem match, ask himself: "Am i ready to fight when things will become blue?"
And to do that, imho, the Jap player should never look for auto victory: the goal should always be to estabilish a defensive perimeter that allows you to last as long as possible. So even the offensive adventures of 1942 should be only seen as a way to fortify your defences, nothing more.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (you young guys look it up [:)]) I will trot out once again:

The Allied player MUST win an auto-vic. Under the game design there is no other way for him to win. The Japanese player must only survive to achieve at least a draw. The Allied player must win, not just not-lose.

From the Japanese side then there are multiple ways to proceed. He can try for an auto-vic himself after 1/1/1943. Or he can play for a draw. Or he can play to win by not losing. This presupposes, however, that the Japanese player does not adopt this somewhat bizarre notion that they "are not playing for VPs." Which I believe John has announced. If Japan is "playing for the experience" many Japanese players will quit when the "experience" of blowing things up and breaking things becomes less intense. OTOH, if they are playing to win THE GAME this transition period is immaterial. When Japan transitions to defense the game experience changes, but it is still challenging, and above all, if one is true to the game design, it is still very possible to win the game.

IMO, any Allied player seeking a PBEM partner should well understand the exact position of his opponent on the GAME, not the war. As well as the Japanese player's position on whether Japanese auto-vic is "easier" to try than a traditional Japanese game winning strategy of survival.

There is one other hope .. the Allies use more than 2 A-bombs .. [;)] Automatic victory for the IJ .. [8D]

That rule itself is . . . bizarre! [:'(]

After Cup of Coffee #2 I realized I dissed Greyjoy and his valid point. While I disagree that a Japanese player should never go for auto-vic--it's there, it's a valid strategy which can make for an exciting game--I would note that the key is for the Japanese player to not quit if it fails to work. The true measure of a masterful Japanese player would be one who "went for auto-vic", failed, and then backed into defense, played to not-lose under the design, and won the game after all.

To my knowledge that has never been done in an AARed game.

[witpqs]

CR,

Glad you are safe and those around you were not seriously hurt, despite their obvious losses. As no one else has, I must ask you:

So how was lunch?

[Alfred]

It isn't Canoerebel's fault that his opponents don't really have the right mental attitude.

1. Chez approached it as an historical reenactment and never adjusted to the different circumstances.

2. Q-Ball mishandled his stage two operations.

3. The other two opponents have a history of going for showy things and then losing interest when the "sexy" things are no longer available.

When Canoerebel tells prospective opponents that he is seeking one who will push for auto victory, he is not saying that they must win on 1 January 1943. What he is saying is he is looking for an opponent who will fully take into account the game's victory conditions. In a GC, an auto victory is available anytime after 1 January 1943. Japanese players who exhibit an attitude that if they can't get an auto victory on 1 January 1943, and only on that specific date, have a very shallow understanding of how to win this game.

The problem is really this:

(a) too many players just puff out their chests and loudly proclaim they willfully disregard VPs because they know when they have won, and

(b) too many play Japan because, irrespective of their own skill level, they get to blow up things at the beginning and are not temperamentally suited to properly playing a Japan which is confronted with the real constraints that country was confronted with in prosecuting the real war.

In both instances players fail to see how the game is structured and how it gives Japan a very real chance at either grabbing an auto victory itself sometime in 1943 or 1944, or alternatively depriving the Allied player from achieving one themself in 1944 or 1945, and in the process dragging out the game to September 1945 when the victory levels shift markedly in favour of Japan.

I can think of a couple of Japanese players at least who would fully meet Canoerebel's oft stated criterion. Unfortunately they are still heavily involved in their current PBEM matches. So there are suitable opponents out there.

Alfred

[Canoerebel]

We had actually had a very late breakfast of southern biscuits.  Owens is owned by family friends.  Josh, the 25-year-old son, is the fellow that always joins me and my sons for Appalachian Trail backpacking trips.  Neither Josh or anyone else in his family was there when the storm hit.  Just before the mayhem started, I was standing at the counter getting a refill of unsweetened ice tea in a big styrofoam cup filled with ice.  I had taken a sip and noticed just how good it was (unsweet tea probably doesn't sound great, but I love it), but I don't know what became of that cup.  I actually looked for it later.  I also looked for the copy of the Atlanta Consitution I had been holding in my hand.  I found a sodden section under the table where I had sought refgue.  The rest of the paper was gone.  P.S.  Two nights before, me and my boys had watched Gone With the Wind.  [X(]

[Canoerebel]

Gents, in my discussions with John prior to launching this game, the topic of auto vic was never mentioned.  In other words, there were no expectations by either side in that regard.  I did tell Moose via PM that I did not think auto vic was a realistic possibility in this scenario for several reasons:  (1) Japan doesn't get the Scenario Two extra divisions which can make a huge difference in a conquest of India or Oz; (2) I know my opponent well.  Given his aggressiveness, I was confident I could attrit him efficiently so that a 4:1 ratio would be highly improbable.
 
I think Alfred's comments are right on the mark.

[catwhoorg]

Glad to hear you and yours are OK. The I75 carnage pictures were unreal.

We were just a little to the South and East of the worst cells, so just a drenching rain and some straight line winds.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gents, in my discussions with John prior to launching this game, the topic of auto vic was never mentioned.  In other words, there were no expectations by either side in that regard.  I did tell Moose via PM that I did not think auto vic was a realistic possibility in this scenario for several reasons:  (1) Japan doesn't get the Scenario Two extra divisions which can make a huge difference in a conquest of India or Oz; (2) I know my opponent well.  Given his aggressiveness, I was confident I could attrit him efficiently so that a 4:1 ratio would be highly improbable.

I think Alfred's comments are right on the mark.

The RA scenario details are important in this case, but in an overall sense I think that my crusade (and Alfred's, but he can speak for himself) to urge PBEM players to play to the design are vital to the long term future of AE. I see the constant abandonment of games by Japanese players who "don't pay attention to VPs" and don't play to win the game, as perhaps leading to the demise of PBEM. Allied players get tired of playing 1942 over and over and over. Not only is it not "fun" in a sense, even if it is a challenge, but it robs both players of seeing the huge amount of gameplay which is included in the game design and purchase price during the out years.

If anything can kill the game and the forum culture over time it's going to be mid-game quitting.

[Canoerebel]

Hopefully this game will go the limit, but the three games I played before this ended in 1/43, 12/42, and 6/42, each at the request or disappearance of the Japanese player (I need to clearly state for the record that I agreed with Chez's offer of a ceasefire as that game had just gone completey weird).  But, like Moose says, it gets really old for an Allied player to never get deep into '43 or later.

I will also say that I love 1942 when the game and survival of the Allies is in question (at least against an experienced, aggressive, and capable IJ player).  The tension of fighting against overwhelming numbers is just a blast.  So, whereas many players seem to hate AV, I love it.  Love it.  Love it.

[Canoerebel]

3/8/42
 
NoPac:  Japan is very busy garrisoning the western Aleutians.  This is good!
 
Pacific:  No more sightings of that unknown TF west of Koumac.  I'm worried about it - what it is and where it migth go (especially with lots of troop transports moving between Tahiti and Dunedin).  John is mopping up dot hexes in the Solmons with great zeal.  Could it be he doesn't plan on going as far as Luganville, Noumea or Fiji?  This does not seem possible in a game vs. John III.
 
Oz:  Same situation at Geraldton, including John flying LRCAP all the way from Carnavon.  Very mysterious.
 
DEI:  John has stopped bombing Singers for a couple of turns, meaning the meager Dutch patrol planes at Batavia are bringing in enough supply to get the AA units back into the game.  Meanwhile, 100+ Japanese bombers (Betties and Nells) visit one of the tiny islands to the SE, where a KNIL detachment with AV 0 is holding out.  What the heck?
 
India:  While maintaining MRG (minimum reasonable garrisons) at Bombay and Karachi, Allied troops are beginning to move forward to areas around Calcutta and the Ledo line.
 
China:  A vastly outnumbered and outgunned Chinese unit near Kweilin held off an IJ shock attack by a divisions plus four or five tank units.  Holy cow!  It's the Alamo!  Chinese reinforcements are moving into the region fairly well, so I think I can ultimately frustrate John on this flank.  One USA B-26 squadron has entered theater and will try to tickle (slow down) the IJ army tomorrow.
 
 

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I think Alfred's comments are right on the mark.

The RA scenario details are important in this case, but in an overall sense I think that my crusade (and Alfred's, but he can speak for himself) to urge PBEM players to play to the design are vital to the long term future of AE. I see the constant abandonment of games by Japanese players who "don't pay attention to VPs" and don't play to win the game, as perhaps leading to the demise of PBEM. Allied players get tired of playing 1942 over and over and over. Not only is it not "fun" in a sense, even if it is a challenge, but it robs both players of seeing the huge amount of gameplay which is included in the game design and purchase price during the out years.

If anything can kill the game and the forum culture over time it's going to be mid-game quitting.

I agree. It's tough though. My first PBEM experience was so-so. My first game of WitPAE ever and I'd never played WitP before. I chose Japan and Scenario 1 with PDU off. I had no prior experience with playing Japan and ran into a "Sir Robin" defence. Needless to say the first year of the war was boring and not enjoyable, for either of us. I contemplated quitting at one point, thought better of it and continued. Unfortunately, my Allied opponent suffered a setback in his first major offensive operation and quit within days, stating he just wasn't enjoying the game. We'd reached March or April 1943.

I understood this having almost quit myself. I just wanted to say it's not just a case of Japanese players quitting, it happens to both sides. Personally, I can say that I'm a reliable opponent and was actually looking forward to moving forward in the game, I too felt robbed after spending 2 years playing a less than enjoyable 1942 only to see the game end just when things were getting interesting. I hope to improve my skills to the point where I'd be a good opponent for some of the better and more reliable players here on the forum.

I play for fun, but not to the point where I don't play to win or at least be as competitive as possible and give a good account of myself. I hate to see games end, but it really comes down to the compatibility of opponents, that's the key to finding lasting games in my opinion.

[Canoerebel]

3/9/42
 
NoPac:  Aleutians remain the same busy hub of enemy activity.

West Coast:  A US Army combat engineer unit arrives at SF, begins prep for Cocos Island, and will immediately ship out for Oz via Tahiti.

Pacific:  Lots of enemy TFs up around Lunga that might be making a move to the SE. We'll see.

Oz:  No developments.

DEI:  Desultory enemy air attacks vs. Singers run into the usual flak trouble.  John should try an attack soon,  I would think.

India/Burma: An IJA mixed brigade crosses the river into Schwebo, evicting an Allied army of equal AV but not of equal ability.  So the remnants of the Allied army will begin to move toward the Ledo line.

China:  The enemy division and tank units on my extreme right flank won the Battle of the Alamo.  My little army retired to Liuchow, which was ideal for me, with two enemy tank units doing the same.  I might be able to handle them tomorrow.  Suddenly five enemy units are at Kweilin (there were just two last turn).  I have 1400 AV in the wooded hex, so I think I can hold.  Via email, John expressed great enthusiasm for the "Gettysburg nature" of the campaign in China, with both sides constantly extending flanks and searching for weaknesses.  This is an accurate description, but it strikes me as odd that John is excited about China.