Night Bombing of Airfields

[Bullwinkle58]

And so, to quote the old Paul Harvey phrase, we have "the rest of the story."

[Sardaukar]

"The Eighth Air Force flew its first shuttle mission out of England on June 21, 1944. A force of 114 B-17s, escorted by 70 P-51 s, bombed a synthetic oil plant south of Berlin and proceeded to the Soviet bases. Undetected by the Americans, a German aircraft followed them to Poltava, and the pilot reported the location to his superiors. Later that night, the Luftwaffe bombed and strafed the Poltava airfield. The Eighth Air Force lost 43 B-17s and 15 P-5Is. The enemy also set off U.S. ammunition dumps and ignited 450,000 gallons of gasoline. Elated by that success, the Germans returned the next night to bomb the other shuttle sites."

I guess something like that happened.

[jolly_pillager]

Fair enough, I'll call it bad die rolls and working as designed.

On with the war [:)]

[jolly_pillager]

DATA:

Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5



Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 8
B-24D Liberator x 15


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
G4M1 Betty: 7 destroyed on ground
Ki-61-Ia Tony: 4 destroyed on ground
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 3 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 3 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 7 damaged



Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 26

Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3



Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 6


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 2 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged



Runway hits 1

Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2



Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 5


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 2 damaged



Runway hits 2


Total Losses: 37 aircraft destroyed, 44 damaged out of 180 total aircraft on base (size 4, stacking limit 200, not overstacked)

2 Allied bombers destroyed from ops losses out of a raid count of 34 attacking aircraft.

How do I fight this? From recon he has ~200 bombers stationed at Calcutta. Assuming 1/3 got lost due to night, he attacked with maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of his bomber force, allowing for continuous operations at this level.

[Sardaukar]

Night air combat is admittedly not the best part of the game.

[Numdydar]

In my PBEM game we just eliminated night bombing altoughter [;)] as results just did not reflect what they should have in our opinion [:)]

[AW1Steve]

Obviously the game is screwed up beyond all recognition. [:D]And if you truly belive that , go play monopoly.


Tell me gentlemen , how does it feel to be smarter than all the developers and people who contributed to creating this game? [&:]
To feel it necessary to rebuild this game with house rules? That obviously the creators are so incompetant that you can fix it all with a house rule? (Please insert sarcasm smiley here with lots of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). [:(]


I for one continue to feel admiration , indeed awe towards the developers , and won't accept a house rule till at least one of the developers comes forth and says, "yeah there's a problem", which they have done on other issues (like the "stratopheric fighter" problem).

Sorry for the rant, but it really grates to hear nothing but UNSUSTANTIATED complains because yet again someone got his head handed to him. Like the heavy casualties a previous poster mentioned on a clear night. With no mention of moonlight.

So potentially he got hit on a full moonlight night (historically called a "bombers moon" for a damned good reason) in clear weather from a massed attack at fairly low altitude. Naw. Couldn't happen. Obviously the game is borked, the dev's are on drugs, WE NEED A HOUSE RULE! (Please insert a really, really big sarcasm smiley in here). [:(]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Obviously the game is screwed up beyond all recognition. [:D]And if you truly belive that , go play monopoly.


Tell me gentlemen , how does it feel to be smarter than all the developers and people who contributed to creating this game? [&:]
To feel it necessary to rebuild this game with house rules? That obviously the creators are so incompetant that you can fix it all with a house rule? (Please insert sarcasm smiley here with lots of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). [:(]


I for one continue to feel admiration , indeed awe towards the developers , and won't accept a house rule till at least one of the developers comes forth and says, "yeah there's a problem", which they have done on other issues (like the "stratopheric fighter" problem).

Sorry for the rant, but it really grates to hear nothing but UNSUSTANTIATED complains because yet again someone got his head handed to him. Like the heavy casualties a previous poster mentioned on a clear night. With no mention of moonlight.

So potentially he got hit on a full moonlight night (historically called a "bombers moon" for a damned good reason) in clear weather from a massed attack at fairly low altitude. Naw. Couldn't happen. Obviously the game is borked, the dev's are on drugs, WE NEED A HOUSE RULE! (Please insert a really, really big sarcasm smiley in here). [:(]

Steve, have you really missed all those guys participating in development saying they have a house rule on night bombing? There wasn't just ONE but several of them saying they have houseruled night bombing. Besides that, your comment would mean the game at release would have been better than now, because when it was released, that's what the devs thought would be fine and there still were several (hundreds) of changes in all the years.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Obviously the game is screwed up beyond all recognition. [:D]And if you truly belive that , go play monopoly.


Tell me gentlemen , how does it feel to be smarter than all the developers and people who contributed to creating this game? [&:]
To feel it necessary to rebuild this game with house rules? That obviously the creators are so incompetant that you can fix it all with a house rule? (Please insert sarcasm smiley here with lots of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). [:(]


I for one continue to feel admiration , indeed awe towards the developers , and won't accept a house rule till at least one of the developers comes forth and says, "yeah there's a problem", which they have done on other issues (like the "stratopheric fighter" problem).

Sorry for the rant, but it really grates to hear nothing but UNSUSTANTIATED complains because yet again someone got his head handed to him. Like the heavy casualties a previous poster mentioned on a clear night. With no mention of moonlight.

So potentially he got hit on a full moonlight night (historically called a "bombers moon" for a damned good reason) in clear weather from a massed attack at fairly low altitude. Naw. Couldn't happen. Obviously the game is borked, the dev's are on drugs, WE NEED A HOUSE RULE! (Please insert a really, really big sarcasm smiley in here). [:(]

Steve, have you really missed all those guys participating in development saying they have a house rule on night bombing? There wasn't just ONE but several of them saying they have houseruled night bombing. Besides that, your comment would mean the game at release would have been better than now, because when it was released, that's what the devs thought would be fine and there still were several (hundreds) of changes in all the years.

Apparently I did miss it. Please show me Castor. I which threads did delelopers say "night bombing is screwed up and here's the house rule to fix it". I must have missed that for sure. Where and when please? [&:]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Obviously the game is screwed up beyond all recognition. [:D]And if you truly belive that , go play monopoly.


Tell me gentlemen , how does it feel to be smarter than all the developers and people who contributed to creating this game? [&:]
To feel it necessary to rebuild this game with house rules? That obviously the creators are so incompetant that you can fix it all with a house rule? (Please insert sarcasm smiley here with lots of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). [:(]


I for one continue to feel admiration , indeed awe towards the developers , and won't accept a house rule till at least one of the developers comes forth and says, "yeah there's a problem", which they have done on other issues (like the "stratopheric fighter" problem).

Sorry for the rant, but it really grates to hear nothing but UNSUSTANTIATED complains because yet again someone got his head handed to him. Like the heavy casualties a previous poster mentioned on a clear night. With no mention of moonlight.

So potentially he got hit on a full moonlight night (historically called a "bombers moon" for a damned good reason) in clear weather from a massed attack at fairly low altitude. Naw. Couldn't happen. Obviously the game is borked, the dev's are on drugs, WE NEED A HOUSE RULE! (Please insert a really, really big sarcasm smiley in here). [:(]

Steve, have you really missed all those guys participating in development saying they have a house rule on night bombing? There wasn't just ONE but several of them saying they have houseruled night bombing. Besides that, your comment would mean the game at release would have been better than now, because when it was released, that's what the devs thought would be fine and there still were several (hundreds) of changes in all the years.

Apparently I did miss it. Please show me Castor. I which threads did delelopers say "night bombing is screwed up and here's the house rule to fix it". I must have missed that for sure. Where and when please? [&:]

I know Nikademus and Joe Wilkerson for example who have spoken about having house rules on night bombing. I don't have to tell you they didn't say: "night bombing is screwed up and here's the house rule to fix it" ? And still they had a house rule. Both Nik and Joe have been part of the dev team and they are probably not the only ones using a hr. Noone forces you to use a hr nor is there anyone forcing you out of your oppinion of pin point attacks at night but if you just want to go with your above statement, there was more than one dev using a hr, so...

one of the official patches had a change in regards to night bombing which made it far better (means less effective) but ppl are still using hr, to each his own I'd say

suggest either the search function or pm the guys

[AW1Steve]

PM's have been sent. My search was inconclusive so far. I'll report back what I'm told and I find.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I know Nikademus and Joe Wilkerson for example who have spoken about having house rules on night bombing. I don't have to tell you they didn't say: "night bombing is screwed up and here's the house rule to fix it" ? And still they had a house rule. Both Nik and Joe have been part of the dev team and they are probably not the only ones using a hr. Noone forces you to use a hr nor is there anyone forcing you out of your oppinion of pin point attacks at night but if you just want to go with your above statement, there was more than one dev using a hr, so...

one of the official patches had a change in regards to night bombing which made it far better (means less effective) but ppl are still using hr, to each his own I'd say

suggest either the search function or pm the guys

Hi Castor Troy,

This jibes with my recollection from reading Nik's contributions on the matter. Don't recall hearing about JWilkerson's POV on this.

[LoBaron]

Just my 2c´s:

Night bombings are still a bit overpowered, but it is now highly dependent on the situation.

The most effective positive modifiers for night bombings still are:
- DL of the base under attack
- Weather
- Altitude

I still think the effect of night bombings is a bit too high with maxed out DL, below it is absolutely reasonable for mid-late war.
The problem is, it is much too easy for a player to max out DL. In addition to accuracy, the op loss figures for night attacks are not high enough, more
so for low exp crews.



For this, in our PBEM, we use the following houserules:

*) Night bombings must have squadrons set to 50% rest
*) Night bombings may not be performed below 10000ft
(the baloons mentioned are only effective at or below 6k, and only at bases with a combined port&airfield of at least 6, so their existence is no point against an alt restriction,
as the bands from 7-9k are still overpowering night bombing)

Targets may only be chosen depending on moon:

*) Below 20%: no missions possible
*) From 20-50%: only coastal cities may be attacked (no specified industry)
*) Above 50%: non coastal attacks are possible (no specified industry)
*) Above 70%: everything goes, including specified industry, ports, airfields,...

Up to now we have not identified any issues using these HRs, additional advantage is, it restricts tactical targets to 30% of the month.


My personal wish for the next PBEM would be to additionally flavor those HRs depending on the year.

[jolly_pillager]

LoBaron

Those sound reasonable, but we are trying to avoid complex house rules and have agreed to proceed without a night bombing rule at this time, and will revisit the issue if it becomes obvious that there is a problem.

To that end I am tracking bombing data. So far my impression is that bombers attacking at low altitude against well reconned bases are capable of inflicting very heavy losses without much cost even if those bases are not overstacked. It may be that insufficient AA is a factor, and steps are being taken to rectify the issue, though security and anti-submarine measures are going to delay delivery considerably...

[Yaab]

Right now any bomber group can perform night bombing missions provided it has 6 ready planes and 50 morale. Why not add an experience threshold to the code so we would have i.e. 6 planes, 50 morale, 65 experience?

[Gaspote]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Just my 2c´s:

Night bombings are still a bit overpowered, but it is now highly dependent on the situation.

The most effective positive modifiers for night bombings still are:
- DL of the base under attack
- Weather
- Altitude

I still think the effect of night bombings is a bit too high with maxed out DL, below it is absolutely reasonable for mid-late war.
The problem is, it is much too easy for a player to max out DL. In addition to accuracy, the op loss figures for night attacks are not high enough, more
so for low exp crews.

In my PBEM, I started night bombing with 40 bombers at 15000 feet and didn't got crazy result even with high moonlight, high DL and good weather on hex with more than 100 planes. Something like 1 planes destroyed max and usually 2-3 hits on airfield.
My opponent replicated with 8 B17 at 8000 feet at night and without DL, in thunderstorm but moonlight, he destroyed 2 planes on ground and damage a lot others and got 2-5 airfield hit.

Although AA was present in my hex, with searchlight and figher set on night CAP (I saw it's useless) when nothing in his case except bofors (but not shooting over 10000 feet).

I then start using my bombers at 8000 feet too and without getting loss from flak I got approximatly the same result using 24 G3M.

In my opinion, only altitude matter but it's wrong because flying so low, bomber got no chance against flak even at night because of searchlight, even if the flak don't hit the blast at this alt reduce accuracy.

[JocMeister]

An easy Night bombing HR that works reasonably well is to only allow it against strategic targets.

[Gaspote]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

An easy Night bombing HR that works reasonably well is to only allow it against strategic targets.

Pretty unfair for the jap when you know most of japanese bomber operate at night. Sending them on daylight make them easy target too.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Pretty unfair for the jap when you know most of japanese bomber operate at night. Sending them on daylight make them easy target too.

On the contrary that HR is actually a boon to the Japanese player. Japanese night bombings is never going to be more then a nuisance in the game. Neither over land nor water. 500 B24s on night bombing on the other hand...

[Gaspote]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Pretty unfair for the jap when you know most of japanese bomber operate at night. Sending them on daylight make them easy target too.

On the contrary that HR is actually a boon to the Japanese player. Japanese night bombings is never going to be more then a nuisance in the game. Neither over land nor water. 500 B24s on night bombing on the other hand...

IRL, a raid of 500 4E at night would result in heavy loss from collision.
I don't really understand why 4E perform so well at night because it wasn't the case historically. I didn't fix a HR in my PBEM, I don't know if my opponent will do this though, because he seems to not use night bombing that much and me too.