Women In the Infantry

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
And if they are capable and want to contribute to the defense of their country, shouldn't they be allowed to?

Woman already serve in the military, what is about to change is putting them in the infantry branch of the military. Capt. Petronio is a classic case of why they should not be allowed to serve alongside men in combat. She herself admits to being one of the typical "I can do anything men can do" crowd as few as 5 years ago. But after one tour in Iraq and one in Afghanistan she has completely done an about face. Listen to her from about 16:30 in the link I posted and she touches on some of the reasons for her epiphany on the issue.

She spent just 7 months in Afghanistan and was sick and a physical wreck after her tour and can no longer have children because of the physical damage the stress of her duties caused to her body. And she wasn't even coming close to keeping up with the men she worked with according to her own account. It would probably have killed her had she tried to keep up with the men. The other woman was even worse off than her, but she didn't go into details about her ailments.

Women in combat will be just as pathetic as women on the police force in practice. Noble words and noble intent do NOT make up for ineptitude in execution and that's what will happen when they hit the brick wall of their own physical limitations. Like it or not they are not strong enough to do everything men do and putting them in jobs that require that kind of strength or sustained stamina will get people killed when the S**t hits the fan.

A female soldier will not be able to rapidly carry/move a 170-200lb soldier that has just been hit by sniper fire out of the danger zone. She might manage a few feet or yards, but imagine it's 50-100 yards to get out of the open. She will be faced with the horrific decision to leave her wounded comrade to die and run for cover or to stay with him and die as well. All the political correctness in the world isn't going to change that fact. I can think of hundreds of combat situations were strength and stamina is all that can save lives and in every instance 99.999% of females will fail utterly to save that life. But hey just as long as we don't discriminate against them good men dying for their political agenda is ok I guess.

Jim

[GaryChildress]

Well apparently many women in the IDF don't feel the same way as Captain Petronio. How is it that women are able to contribute to the defense of Israel but not the US. Do all women in the infantry experience the same thing as Cpt Petronio? I mean if a guy with PTSD got up and said that he was living proof that men shouldn't be forced to fight in wars would that count against men serving in the military? I'm sure there are many individuals who just aren't cut out for one job or another. But does that rule out the possbility that others may succeed? How is the IDF able to use women in the front line but certain other countries can't? Are Israeli women just stronger and more accustomed to hardship than American women?

[Jim D Burns]

Had you bothered to listen to her whole interview instead of simply spouting off your political doctrine, you'd have realized she touches on this exact issue. The military is about combat readiness and capability not the individual soldier. If you allow women in combat because a few can hack it, what effectively happens is all women in the military become a number on a page that can be moved where needed even if they don't want to be moved. They will be sent wholesale into infantry units without regard to individual abilities and the vast majority of them will be unable to perform their duties on the same level expected of men now.

According to her, she was and is an over-achiever in life, yet she admits she couldn't come close to performing on the level of her male peers. In practice she did the same thing I saw done over and over on the police force. She hid herself and the other female away somewhere safe and failed to do the job expected of the men. She wasn't shirking her duties, she simply wasn't able to do them and simply surviving the tour was a challenge. Now imagine that kind of performance on a massive scale across the entire military and you understand what she means when she says it will detrimentally effect our military readiness and combat ability.

The IDF uses women because they have no real choice. We however have a choice.

Jim

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Well apparently many women in the IDF don't feel the same way as Captain Petronio. How is it that women are able to contribute to the defense of Israel but not the US. Do all women in the infantry experience the same thing as Cpt Petronio? I mean if a guy with PTSD got up and said that he was living proof that men shouldn't be forced to fight in wars would that count against men serving in the military? I'm sure there are many individuals who just aren't cut out for one job or another. But does that rule out the possbility that others may succeed? How is the IDF able to use women in the front line but certain other countries can't? Are Israeli women just stronger and more accustomed to hardship than American women?

I hate to break it to folks who want to throw about "Israeli women in combat", well, NO I don't:

“History shows that the presence of women has had a devastating impact on the effectiveness of men in battle,” wrote John Luddy in July 27, 1994, for the Heritage Foundation backgrounder.

“For example, it is a common misperception that Israel allows women in combat units. In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be. The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield,” Luddy said.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2001/08/10269/#ZDbT9IO3t5qfJFlA.99

Edward Norton, a reservist in the Israel Defense Forces: “Women have always played an important role in the Israeli military, but they rarely see combat; if they do, it is usually by accident. No one in Israel, including feminists, has any objection to this situation. The fact that the Persian Gulf War has produced calls to allow women on the front lines proves only how atypical that war was and how little Americans really understand combat.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2001/08/10269/#ZDbT9IO3t5qfJFlA.99

But I fear that no amount of proof of the dangers and double standards of women in combat will go over the heads of those who don't care if women mangled and killed in combat.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Had you bothered to listen to her whole interview instead of simply spouting off your political doctrine, you'd have realized she touches on this exact issue. The military is about combat readiness and capability not the individual soldier. If you allow women in combat because a few can hack it, what effectively happens is all women in the military become a number on a page that can be moved where needed even if they don't want to be moved. They will be sent wholesale into infantry units without regard to individual abilities and the vast majority of them will be unable to perform their duties on the same level expected of men now.

According to her, she was and is an over-achiever in life, yet she admits she couldn't come close to performing on the level of her male peers. In practice she did the same thing I saw done over and over on the police force. She hid herself and the other female away somewhere safe and failed to do the job expected of the men. She wasn't shirking her duties, she simply wasn't able to do them and simply surviving the tour was a challenge. Now imagine that kind of performance on a massive scale across the entire military and you understand what she means when she says it will detrimentally effect our military readiness and combat ability.

The IDF uses women because they have no real choice. We however have a choice.

Jim

Some "overachieving" men probably aren't cut out for front line service either. The rigors of front line life seem to have different effects on different people, regardless of intelligence or physical shape. I'm not going to base my perception on women in combat based upon one testimony, especially when there is evidence that women are cutting it elsewhere on the globe. Sounds like you are using one testimony so you can "spout off your political doctrine."

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: parusski

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Well apparently many women in the IDF don't feel the same way as Captain Petronio. How is it that women are able to contribute to the defense of Israel but not the US. Do all women in the infantry experience the same thing as Cpt Petronio? I mean if a guy with PTSD got up and said that he was living proof that men shouldn't be forced to fight in wars would that count against men serving in the military? I'm sure there are many individuals who just aren't cut out for one job or another. But does that rule out the possbility that others may succeed? How is the IDF able to use women in the front line but certain other countries can't? Are Israeli women just stronger and more accustomed to hardship than American women?

I hate to break it to folks who want to throw about "Israeli women in combat", well, NO I don't:

“History shows that the presence of women has had a devastating impact on the effectiveness of men in battle,” wrote John Luddy in July 27, 1994, for the Heritage Foundation backgrounder.

Well if the Heritage Foundation says so then it must be true. I surrender my case.

[berto]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

So based on the fact that women serve in combat roles in the IDF doesn't prove that women are capable of doing so? Are women a detriment to the IDF? EDIT: And if they are a detriment then why would the IDF deploy them if they will reduce combat effectiveness of the IDF?

It's a question of some combat roles (maybe even most of them) vs. absolutely all of them. I for one am not willing to go the last final steps toward perfectly full equality. (Note: my concerns go beyond the narrow ones of physical fitness and strength.)

There are no value absolutes here. At some point, decreasing marginal returns become negative marginal returns. Costs outweigh benefits. Fulfilling the core defense mission becomes paramount.

Why would the Israelis, in their effective desperation, admit women to all combat roles? (And do they? Are you sure absolutely all?) Maybe because, faced with dire existential threat, numbers outweigh marginally reduced combat effectiveness, and trump all other considerations. Their circumstances, their considerations. Not ours.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Sounds like you are using one testimony so you can "spout off your political doctrine."

Go back to my post on page two. I'm basing my opinion on years of experience in the police department and what I actually saw occur in practice on the streets every single day. Simply put female officers couldn't cut it and ended up working in the building as soon as they realized how helpless they were in physical confrontations. Very few made it past one year on the streets.

Combat will be far worse than police work when it comes to physical demands and violence. While there were lots of fights on almost a daily basis in Oakland, the vast majority were trying to flee so a lost fight usually didn't end in someone's death. Most female officers lost every fight they were in with male suspects if they didn't have a male officer to back them up. I suspect combat will be the same only a loss will equal someone dying.

So no politics here, just the cold hard facts about physical limitations in violent situations. Combat is unforgiving and many will die for this ideologically driven PC agenda.

Jim

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: parusski

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Well apparently many women in the IDF don't feel the same way as Captain Petronio. How is it that women are able to contribute to the defense of Israel but not the US. Do all women in the infantry experience the same thing as Cpt Petronio? I mean if a guy with PTSD got up and said that he was living proof that men shouldn't be forced to fight in wars would that count against men serving in the military? I'm sure there are many individuals who just aren't cut out for one job or another. But does that rule out the possbility that others may succeed? How is the IDF able to use women in the front line but certain other countries can't? Are Israeli women just stronger and more accustomed to hardship than American women?

I hate to break it to folks who want to throw about "Israeli women in combat", well, NO I don't:

“History shows that the presence of women has had a devastating impact on the effectiveness of men in battle,” wrote John Luddy in July 27, 1994, for the Heritage Foundation backgrounder.

Well if the Heritage Foundation says so then it must be true. I surrender my case.

Yeah. Right. All I know is that when I was a few years younger I DID support women in combat. But I have changed my mind for many, many, many reasons. And the most important one - my independent, strong minded, healthy athletic daughter, is 21 and the thought of her in combat is beyond comprehension. Of course I hope my sons never have to go into battle, but my wife and I could accept that much more easily than we could our little girl. And my daughter finds the whole idea "retarded" as she puts it.

One more thing, my little girl likes war games and loves her guns, which includes an AR-15, Springfield Armory 1911 semit-auto and a Browning BT-99 Grade III Shotgun.

[GaryChildress]

OK. So women on the front line maybe demoralizes men... I suppose a case could be made that a hundred years ago large numbers of blacks in front line roles in the US army might have undermined the confidence of white male soldiers who happened to adhere to the racial stereotypes of their time. I'm sure if we backpeddled a dozen decades there would be plenty of flak about allowing blacks to serve frontline status and all sorts of anecdotal evidence might be cited to reinforce this belief. I just wonder if this issue with women in combat is not another case of cultural prejudices getting in the way of the advancement of minority rights. Apparently male soldiers don't know how to handle female casualties. Is that the fault of females or do males need to simply get over their "paternalistic hangups"? I don't know the answer but the current debate certainly seems to provoke the passions just as much. I wonder if those passions aren't clouding peoples' judgement on the issue.

[parusski]

I wonder if those passions aren't clouding peoples' judgement on the issue.

Yes Gary, I agree. It is a shame that those who support women[;)] in combat have their judgement clouded by "feel good" politics. That is a shame.[8|][8|]

Also, I want to ad an excellent column by Walter Williams, it is worth contemplating:

http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2013/02/06/women-in-combat-n1504759/page/2[/size=4]

Great excerpt of another double standard:

There's another issue. The Selective Service System's website has the following message about draft registration: "Even though the Secretary of Defense has decided to allow women in combat jobs, the law has not been changed to include this. Consequently, only men are currently required to register by law with Selective Service during ages 18 thru 25. Women still do not register." How can that, coupled with differences in performance standards, possibly be consistent with the Defense Department's stated agenda "to provide a level, gender-neutral playing field"?

[rhondabrwn]

Prediction: In five years we will look back on this debate and wonder why it was an issue.

Hopefully, I'll still be alive to come back and post an "I told you so" [:D]

[berto]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Prediction: In five years we will look back on this debate and wonder why it was an issue.

Hopefully, I'll still be alive to come back and post an "I told you so" [:D]

Yes, Rhonda, I believe you're right.

I predict that in five years time

[*] we will have pretend equality
[*] we (most of us) will turn a blind eye to the many inevitable de jure and de facto exceptions
[*] combat effectiveness will be reduced (no big deal, right?)
[*] the mainstream media will sweep under the rug many of the bad after effects
[*] the mainstream media, hence popular attention, will have moved on to The Next Big Thing (gender "equality" in pro sports? legalized polygamy?)

We will have been spun, we will recover our balance, and we will await the next go-around.

Get over it. That's just the way it is. Life in these times. [:(]

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
So no politics here, just the cold hard facts about physical limitations in violent situations. Combat is unforgiving and many will die for this ideologically driven PC agenda.

ORIGINAL: berto

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Prediction: In five years we will look back on this debate and wonder why it was an issue.

Hopefully, I'll still be alive to come back and post an "I told you so" [:D]

Yes, Rhonda, I believe you're right.

I predict that in five years time

[*] we will have pretend equality
[*] we (most of us) will turn a blind eye to the many inevitable de jure and de facto exceptions
[*] combat effectiveness will be reduced (no big deal, right?)
[*] the mainstream media will sweep under the rug many of the bad after effects
[*] the mainstream media, hence popular attention, will have moved on to The Next Big Thing (gender "equality" in pro sports? legalized polygamy?)

We will have been spun, we will recover our balance, and we will await the next go-around.

Get over it. That's just the way it is. Life in these times. [:(]

+1. Life in these times ......unfortunately.

Equality.....pah!! Yeah only for the 'good, easy' jobs.
You don't see women flocking to become coalminers or dustbin collectors.

A women changing a tyre on a car????? Puhleeaasse!!
99.9% of women would'nt even consider the possibility of doing that...its dirty and its not nice.
The men can carry on doing all the shite jobs....... women want to start on the job ladder as a CEO.

[pmelheck1]

Just out of curiosity how many of you folks calling for woman in front line combat have extensive military backgrounds? As many folks point out their are differences in standards but their is also a vast difference in treatment as well in the field that can and have been very bad for morale/unit cohesion.

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: mullk

Just out of curiosity how many of you folks calling for woman in front line combat have extensive military backgrounds? As many folks point out their are differences in standards but their is also a vast difference in treatment as well in the field that can and have been very bad for morale/unit cohesion.

8 years in a regular tank regiment.

[Sarge]

B co 2/502 ABN 88-94

[Titanwarrior89]

See first post in this thread.

ORIGINAL: mullk

Just out of curiosity how many of you folks calling for woman in front line combat have extensive military backgrounds? As many folks point out their are differences in standards but their is also a vast difference in treatment as well in the field that can and have been very bad for morale/unit cohesion.

[Titanwarrior89]

ORIGINAL: berto

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Prediction: In five years we will look back on this debate and wonder why it was an issue.

Hopefully, I'll still be alive to come back and post an "I told you so" [:D]

Yes, Rhonda, I believe you're right.

I predict that in five years time

[*] we will have pretend equality
[*] we (most of us) will turn a blind eye to the many inevitable de jure and de facto exceptions
[*] combat effectiveness will be reduced (no big deal, right?)
[*] the mainstream media will sweep under the rug many of the bad after effects
[*] the mainstream media, hence popular attention, will have moved on to The Next Big Thing (gender "equality" in pro sports? legalized polygamy?)

We will have been spun, we will recover our balance, and we will await the next go-around.

Get over it. That's just the way it is. Life in these times. [:(]

[&o]

[pmelheck1]

I agree with several folks who's sentiments are this is not going to end well. I also agree that no matter how horrible the results as this is an ideological move it will be spun to be just wonderful but I also think we will suspend it due to some other ideological reason or worse keep it even if it means the loss of combat ability. For the last few years the military has been much more about social experimentation that about combat readiness. The major issue with these discussions is this is an ideology issue in more than a few peoples minds and so their can be no rational discussion as this is about beliefs and not a decision.