Women In the Infantry

[barkman44]

What we are witnessing is the pansiefication of the american male
If women are our total equals why then are the olympics devided into male and female categories?
These same creatures that we open doors for,stand up for if were sitting and they approuched
we're now going to throw a weapon and tell them"stand too soldier and act like a man"
Yea thats real lady-like behavior!But i forget we men want our women to be more like men and we be metrosexual
a kinder gentler WIMP!

[gunny]

We have had women in combat units in Canada for a while.

1. There were very few of them in Afghanistan, some sections had one, other sections had no females even though it is open to recruitment, they just weren't breaking the doors down to get in.
2. They are better shots, I have a theory as to why but I believe that is a fact
3. The hardest thing they had to overcome was cocking the FN Mag machine gun from a prone position. As a matter of fact this became a test they had to pass because it was recognized as a serious problem as all solders had to prove they could operate this weapon.
4. 40lb battle dress + 25lb minimum assaut pack took its toll. Add to that alot of other things like rats and water. Guys tended to get lean and buff out a bit, but by the end of the tour you could see the women lost alot of muscle mass and were quite scrawny. This didn't affect performance, but I know some filed for mechanical injuries after the tour.
5. Overall nothing stood out pro or con. They did their job like anyone else. Most moved on and didn't re-engage.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

What we are witnessing is the pansiefication of the american male
If women are our total equals why then are the olympics devided into male and female categories?
These same creatures that we open doors for,stand up for if were sitting and they approuched
we're now going to throw a weapon and tell them"stand too soldier and act like a man"
Yea thats real lady-like behavior!But i forget we men want our women to be more like men and we be metrosexual
a kinder gentler WIMP!

Hey, NO pansiefication with me. I am standing tall, with my wife, daughter, mother, grandmothers, several aunt's, numerous female friends saying...I/we are not ashamed to oppose this. So when people hurl insults at me, or imply I am sexist, well they need to contend with the large number of women standing shoulder to shoulder with me. Or do you think they will just ignore women who oppose female's in combat?????

[Orm]

Or do you think they will just ignore women who oppose female's in combat?????

Yes.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Or do you think they will just ignore women who oppose female's in combat?????

Yes.

Yes. My wife and I were discussing this issue with someone last night. This other human said I was being a "typical sexist" and "you think all women should stay home..." blah blah. My wife perked up and asked this progressive human what she thought of the fact that she(my wife) opposed women in combat. The answer was instructive - "women should not be under the thumb of their husbands." Ooooops, big mistake.[;)]

[hadberz]

ORIGINAL: mullk

Just out of curiosity how many of you folks calling for woman in front line combat have extensive military backgrounds? As many folks point out their are differences in standards but their is also a vast difference in treatment as well in the field that can and have been very bad for morale/unit cohesion.

I realize most folks are discussing this from a Army/Marine point of view. Next time I see my son-in-law (Army MP) I will ask his thoughts on this, but here my 2 cents. I'm 20 years Air Force still on active duty. I can only speak for the AF. Front line, second line, last line, direct, indirect whatever you want to call it women in the AF have been in combat my entire career. They've killed, been killed, and performed their duty inside the wire, outside the wire, during convoys, and CAS/CAP missions. I suspect the Army/Marines have just as many woman who performed their duty in the same situations. To say their not in combat right now is insulting.

Obviously each service will have to work out the details, but there is no doubt in my mind this will work. In fact below are the last AF AFSC left that barred women from combat on paper.

Officer / Enlisted Air Force Specialty Codes closed to women:
- 13DXA (Combat Control Officer - special operations forces / direct ground combat)
- 13DXB (Combat Rescue/Special Tactics Officer - special operations forces / direct ground combat)
- 15WXC (Special Operations Weather Officer - special operations forces / direct ground combat)
- 1C2XX (Enlisted Combat Controller - special operations forces /direct ground combat)
- 1C4XX (Enlisted Tactical Air Command and Control - some special operations forces /direct ground combat)
- 1T2XX (Enlisted Pararescue - special operations forces /direct ground combat)
- 1W0X2 (Enlisted Special Operations Weather - special operations forces /direct ground combat)

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I suppose a case could be made that a hundred years ago large numbers of blacks in front line roles in the US army might have undermined the confidence of white male soldiers who happened to adhere to the racial stereotypes of their time. I'm sure if we backpeddled a dozen decades there would be plenty of flak about allowing blacks to serve frontline status and all sorts of anecdotal evidence might be cited to reinforce this belief. I just wonder if this issue with women in combat is not another case of cultural prejudices getting in the way of the advancement of minority rights.

Sup Gary, how's everything been? ……hope all is well as it is here !

That has to be your all-time” race card” record, I dont get your correlation/metal gymnastics and i'm not so sure you even get it , but thumps up on the Triple Lindy ….[&o]

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I suppose a case could be made that a hundred years ago large numbers of blacks in front line roles in the US army might have undermined the confidence of white male soldiers who happened to adhere to the racial stereotypes of their time. I'm sure if we backpeddled a dozen decades there would be plenty of flak about allowing blacks to serve frontline status and all sorts of anecdotal evidence might be cited to reinforce this belief. I just wonder if this issue with women in combat is not another case of cultural prejudices getting in the way of the advancement of minority rights.

Sup Gary, how's everything been? ……hope all is well as it is here !

That has to be your all-time” race card” record, I dont get your correlation/metal gymnastics and i'm not so sure you even get it , but thumps up on the Triple Lindy ….[&o]

Sarge, where did you get that image of Gary Childress??

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

What we are witnessing is the pansiefication of the american male
If women are our total equals why then are the olympics devided into male and female categories?
These same creatures that we open doors for,stand up for if were sitting and they approuched
we're now going to throw a weapon and tell them"stand too soldier and act like a man"
Yea thats real lady-like behavior!But i forget we men want our women to be more like men and we be metrosexual
a kinder gentler WIMP!

Honestly, we're talking about a small minority of women here who want the right to qualify for combat roles. I think you can rest assured that there will be plenty of us around who still want to have doors opened for us and other courtesies.

I don't want all men to become WIMPs but I also have no problem with the minority that are kinder and gentler. It takes all kinds of people to make a world and we need to respect everyone's right to be their own person. All gender attributes, both physical and mental reside on a wide spectrum between very masculine to very feminine. Males and females come down all over that spectrum... strong, masculine women and weak, effeminate males. We've all known people who deviate from the average male and female roles. There are strong women out there who will make great soldiers, just as there are weak males who have no business being anywhere close to combat.

I'll stand by my prediction that five years from now this will be a forgotten issue. It will work for some women and not for others. Standards will be adjusted as appropriate based upon experience with women in combat. We may very well discover that women make a significant contribution based on their gender differences and not despite them. If women are better shots as Gunny suggested, perhaps they will make excellent snipers. I've already suggested that women may be stealthier for infiltration and recon. We won't know till we try it.

Just as an aside, I watched "The Front Line" for the 2nd time last night and reflected on this discussion as the North Korean female sniper "2 second" killed one man after another. She wasn't carrying a 65 pound pack either, just her rifle and a rucksack. I would suggest that a woman in a combat unit doesn't necessarily have to carry the same load as the men as long as she has skills that compensate. For example, being able to act as a translator, special weapon skills, or maybe just being really, smart, or a natural leader.

It will be interesting whatever happens. I still say let's meet back here in five years and evaluate. In the meantime, the world isn't going to come to an end if some women get a combat MOS or even end up being a company commander (or higher). We have women commanding fighter squadrons now, so why not female infantry commanders. We can also discuss whether the Army collapsed due to the repeal of DADT (another hot button issue).

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
And if they are capable and want to contribute to the defense of their country, shouldn't they be allowed to?

Woman already serve in the military, what is about to change is putting them in the infantry branch of the military. Capt. Petronio is a classic case of why they should not be allowed to serve alongside men in combat. She herself admits to being one of the typical "I can do anything men can do" crowd as few as 5 years ago. But after one tour in Iraq and one in Afghanistan she has completely done an about face. Listen to her from about 16:30 in the link I posted and she touches on some of the reasons for her epiphany on the issue.

She spent just 7 months in Afghanistan and was sick and a physical wreck after her tour and can no longer have children because of the physical damage the stress of her duties caused to her body. And she wasn't even coming close to keeping up with the men she worked with according to her own account. It would probably have killed her had she tried to keep up with the men. The other woman was even worse off than her, but she didn't go into details about her ailments.

Women in combat will be just as pathetic as women on the police force in practice. Noble words and noble intent do NOT make up for ineptitude in execution and that's what will happen when they hit the brick wall of their own physical limitations. Like it or not they are not strong enough to do everything men do and putting them in jobs that require that kind of strength or sustained stamina will get people killed when the S**t hits the fan.

A female soldier will not be able to rapidly carry/move a 170-200lb soldier that has just been hit by sniper fire out of the danger zone. She might manage a few feet or yards, but imagine it's 50-100 yards to get out of the open. She will be faced with the horrific decision to leave her wounded comrade to die and run for cover or to stay with him and die as well. All the political correctness in the world isn't going to change that fact. I can think of hundreds of combat situations were strength and stamina is all that can save lives and in every instance 99.999% of females will fail utterly to save that life. But hey just as long as we don't discriminate against them good men dying for their political agenda is ok I guess.

Jim

++1
Absolutely right on the button Jim

[MrRoadrunner]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I suppose a case could be made that a hundred years ago large numbers of blacks in front line roles in the US army might have undermined the confidence of white male soldiers who happened to adhere to the racial stereotypes of their time. I'm sure if we backpeddled a dozen decades there would be plenty of flak about allowing blacks to serve frontline status and all sorts of anecdotal evidence might be cited to reinforce this belief. I just wonder if this issue with women in combat is not another case of cultural prejudices getting in the way of the advancement of minority rights.

Sup Gary, how's everything been? ……hope all is well as it is here !

That has to be your all-time” race card” record, I dont get your correlation/metal gymnastics and i'm not so sure you even get it , but thumps up on the Triple Lindy ….[&o]

Sarge, I agree with you.
It is funny how some feel the need to throw the "race" hand grenade into a discussion of gender difference.
It also displays that Gary does not know real (true) history.
Blacks were integrated into the military after the Civil War (during for the North and almost during for the South). Up until the racist President Wilson decreed that Blacks needed to be segregated to coincide with his domestic agenda regarding blacks. Blacks were in segregated units until Patton included them in rifle platoons, as replacements, at the end of WWII.

People like Wilson and Margret Sanger directed policy, against blacks, based upon the theories of Darwin, Freud, and Marx. We would not have had "white's only" water fountains and restaurants had it not be for the Presidential edicts of Wilson.

I'm sure that Gary is intellectually stable enough to do some research that might change his viewpoints and keep him from throwing race into every discussion. Especially throwing in false information.
The earliest issues governing the black enrollment in the military was overcoming the inherent view of the regulars toward the black group. Maybe Gary can look up the reason the Black Jack Pershing was called "Black Jack"?
It was the same as when Irish and Italians joined. Especially at the time when signs like "no dogs or Irishmen allowed" and "without papers (wops) go home" were prevalent.
Wilson simply plugged his own brand of racism onto things.
Blacks fought in every War the US had from the Revolution forward. In WWI many US blacks joined French and British units to fight on the front lines. Some even were pilots (and aces). But, they were not allowed to fight in US front line units.

Americans surely are not taught this in our schools.

There are no differences between Irish, Italian, or black men in performing combat soldiering duties. There are definite differences between men and women.

RR

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner


There are no differences between Irish, Italian, or black men in performing combat soldiering duties. There are definite differences between men and women.

RR

+1

I think RoadRunner summed up the entire thread very well in two sentences.

Nuff said.

[parusski]

People like Wilson and Margret Sanger directed policy, against blacks, based upon the theories of Darwin, Freud, and Marx. We would not have had "white's only" water fountains and restaurants had it not be for the Presidential edicts of Wilson.

And don't forget Sanger was a committed person of the (D) party. A Libtard.

[MrRoadrunner]

ORIGINAL: parusski
And don't forget Sanger was a committed person of the (D) party. A Libtard.

And, a Fabian Socialist who thought abortion should be legal up to the age of two years old.

RR

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn
so why not female infantry commanders.

and there it is........this has nothing to do with equal combat rolls of the enlisted by any stretch, this is about that little blue CIB and their “career” advancement and nothing to do with defense or strategic advantage ..... [;)]

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

What we are witnessing is the pansiefication of the american male
If women are our total equals why then are the olympics devided into male and female categories?
These same creatures that we open doors for,stand up for if were sitting and they approuched
we're now going to throw a weapon and tell them"stand too soldier and act like a man"
Yea thats real lady-like behavior!But i forget we men want our women to be more like men and we be metrosexual
a kinder gentler WIMP!

Honestly, we're talking about a small minority of women here who want the right to qualify for combat roles. I think you can rest assured that there will be plenty of us around who still want to have doors opened for us and other courtesies.

I don't want all men to become WIMPs but I also have no problem with the minority that are kinder and gentler. It takes all kinds of people to make a world and we need to respect everyone's right to be their own person. All gender attributes, both physical and mental reside on a wide spectrum between very masculine to very feminine. Males and females come down all over that spectrum... strong, masculine women and weak, effeminate males. We've all known people who deviate from the average male and female roles. There are strong women out there who will make great soldiers, just as there are weak males who have no business being anywhere close to combat.

I'll stand by my prediction that five years from now this will be a forgotten issue. It will work for some women and not for others. Standards will be adjusted as appropriate based upon experience with women in combat. We may very well discover that women make a significant contribution based on their gender differences and not despite them. If women are better shots as Gunny suggested, perhaps they will make excellent snipers. I've already suggested that women may be stealthier for infiltration and recon. We won't know till we try it.

Just as an aside, I watched "The Front Line" for the 2nd time last night and reflected on this discussion as the North Korean female sniper "2 second" killed one man after another. She wasn't carrying a 65 pound pack either, just her rifle and a rucksack. I would suggest that a woman in a combat unit doesn't necessarily have to carry the same load as the men as long as she has skills that compensate. For example, being able to act as a translator, special weapon skills, or maybe just being really, smart, or a natural leader.

It will be interesting whatever happens. I still say let's meet back here in five years and evaluate. In the meantime, the world isn't going to come to an end if some women get a combat MOS or even end up being a company commander (or higher). We have women commanding fighter squadrons now, so why not female infantry commanders. We can also discuss whether the Army collapsed due to the repeal of DADT (another hot button issue).

Great thoughts on the issue rhonda. I would hold a door open for you anytime. Since the barn door has been opened we will get to see how this social experiment goes. I still think it is a mistake to do this. Politicians do things in baby steps that chip away from our basic freedoms, and yes, traditions. This is like a dripping faucet, it does not seem so bad as it drips, but overall it adds up.

Still, you posted the best, reasoned response to the pro-side we have had here.[&o]

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn
Honestly, we're talking about a small minority of women here who want the right to qualify for combat roles.

Nope, that's not how the military works. Women are going to be moved wholesale into infantry units just like the men. Numbers on a piece of paper are what they will be and you go where you are told to go in the military, personal choice has nothing to do with it. No pre-selection process to filter out only those who can cut it exists nor will one be made. Instead what will happen is what has happened in every other field women have entered where they failed to meet the male standard. The standard will be dropped so they can qualify and it will have an overall devastating effect on combat readiness and morale.

Jim

[EisenHammer]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Women are going to be moved wholesale into infantry units just like the men.

I don't see this happening at all. Things would have to get really bad for that to happen. Like maybe an alien invasion or something. lol

The most I think we'll see is women as tankers, snipers, medics, chopper pilots, Artillery, Drones pilots, and frontline HQ staff and support units. The Army may come out with one experimental Amazon Battalion just to see how it would work out, but that would be about it. I think most of you are overreacting.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

ORIGINAL: parusski
And don't forget Sanger was a committed person of the (D) party. A Libtard.

And, a Fabian Socialist who thought abortion should be legal up to the age of two years old.

RR

Yeah, she also wanted to control the black population with abortion.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Women are going to be moved wholesale into infantry units just like the men.

I don't see this happening at all. Things would have to get really bad for that to happen. Like maybe an alien invasion or something. lol

The most I think we'll see is women as tankers, snipers, medics, chopper pilots, Artillery, Drones pilots, and frontline HQ staff and support units. The Army may come out with one experimental Amazon Battalion just to see how it would work out, but that would be about it. I think most of you are overreacting.

warspite1

Women as chopper pilots.... oh well made me laugh [:)][:D]