help with SEPs

[Phoenix100]

Can anyone give me quick advice on how to place and get SEPs operational? I've searched posts and manuals with not much joy. I've decided to tamper with the SEPs in From the Maas to the Rhine because after playing this scenario through so many times I've decided - no surprise here - that the supply drop zones (the air supplied SEPs) are just too far from the objectives to keep going with the forces available against the forces the enemy can muster. So, as an experiment (my first tampering with the scenmaker) I want to add 2 SEPs (or even better, change the location of 2 SEPs) - the 2 SEPs in question being that for the entire Arnhem force ( SEP 2, which I would like to move to the flat open space just south of Heelsum (south of its present location) and that for the Eastern portion of the 82nd airborne (SEP 4, which I would like to move just south of Sint Anna, near to the sanitorium there). Once the two days drops are completed this might make it easier to keep in supply the battallions going for the bridges.

I have worked out easily enough how to make and position 2 extra SEPs and how to allocate supply to them, but I can't work out how to move the existent SEP 2 and SEP 4, which would probably be better.
So (1) Anyone know how to move existent SEPs in the scenmaker?

(2) If I simply create 2 more SEPs where I want them can anyone tell me what I would need to change to get the bases that supply the troops in question to actually take supply from the new SEPs? Or will they do this automatically?

(3) A supplementary question - one no doubt covered before, sorry - can anyone tell me what happens to the supply chain if a base gets destroyed? Do its units still get supply from the SEP?

[navwarcol]

Hi Phoenix..I have messed around some with the scenario editor. I can help with a couple of these.
For you #1..to move it, you grab it, holding down the mouse, and drag to its new location... you probably want this location to be back along the edge toward your LOC, because otherwise supply to and from it will be harassed.
#2, and #3, I have not yet messed with enough to know..but I will add a point based on your initial paragraph. Air dropped supply is inherently 'iffy', irl, as well as in the game. You CAN , by double clicking on the SEP, bring up its data, and change the 'air dropped' to a more secure method... maybe less realistic, but the game IS a 'what-if'..and there COULD have been other options..maybe a better prepared offense by the Germans, or a less surprised American defense, and the supply situation would have been better. In the end I think it is one of the best things about wargames, the ability to examine what would have happened, if X had gone differently.

[Phoenix100]

Many thanks Navwarcol. Will try that. I don't mind it being iffy. Don't want to make it a roll over (though I confess I have just upped my air support to 50 flights a day, just for a laugh...), just try to give the allies a chance. They don't have a chance at all, as it is, I don't think (as they didn't in reality). Not with me as general, anyway. And I've tried this scenario many, many times. In reality, of course, the allies did try to make supply drops into the oosterbeek pocket (with limited success, as it happens) - so some flexibility and change was possible. So, I think, why have those SEPS 10 kilometres away for 9 days when in reality drops were made much closer to the action? So i thought I'd tinker with it a little.

I worry about question 2 though. If I simply invent a new drop point will the bases automatically draw supply from it?

[navwarcol]

You will need to make sure it will provide supply... in the editor under "side" then "supply schedule".. make sure it is an active SEP by putting a '1' in the 3rd column. The second column I believe is a ratio of how much of the side's total supplies are routed to that one... so if you have 3 SEP, and one says "3" there, while another says "1" and another says "1" for example, the '3' would get 3/5, or 60% of the scheduled supplies...etc.
The first column there then shows what the 'scheduled supplies' are.. I think from how I can tell, it is a % of the expected total requirement for the entire side, for 1 day..so if it says "100%" then the side will get its entire (expected) requirements...while if it says 50%, the side will already be fighting an uphill battle as far as logistics, and a well prepared offensive could, at least in its first day or two, also be above 100%.
Hope this helps some...for myself, I usually love playing around with the creation, almost as much as playing the game..no offense to Dave who has made a very good one here.

[Arjuna]

As to which SEP a force will use will depend on the a umber of factors. These include range, type of SEP, capacity of SEP and reachability. There's a complex algorythm and I don't want to spend the time required to go into this in detail right now. Suffice to say that it will endeavour to go the closest reachable SEP with sufficient capacity. If there isn't enough capacity it may be diverted to a more distant reachable SEP.

[Phoenix100]

Thanks Dave. Thanks Navwarcol. All very helpful. Having fun with it. My God, though, Market Garden was doomed. I've moved the main SEP for the 82nd to just south of Nijmegan and limited myself to just trying for the rail bridge. I've moved the Arnhem SEP to Oosterbeek and again, I'm just going for the rail bridge. it's Day 3 now and Arnhem is sitting pretty on the rail bridge, but the Axis has flooded Nijmegan and we've lost even the rail bridge. Plus, I still haven't been able to stop the Axis cutting the vanguard supply, even with the SEP right there, as it were. Not enough troops to do this job! Might try to tamper with that next. Add 3 more battallions to the 82nd!

[Arjuna]

phoenix,

And you call yourself a real man! [;)]

Don't give the 82nd more troops. But you could try shifting their priorities so they focus on securing Nijmegen at the expense of holding onto all the Groesbeeck Hgts. Just leave a very light screen in the hights and pull them back if pressed towards the city. The city is the key. They have to secure it asap.

[Phoenix100]

Nah. I would never claim to be a real man.


That's what I'm doing, Dave - leaving the heights and going for the city. I've got 2 Bns on the rail bridge, 1 blocking the road bridge (except that didn't last long and had to be pulled back before it surrendered), 1 in the centre of the city, and 1 at my moved SEP a little to the south, plus 1 at Somerchem. A Bn holds the Honinghutje bridge, and another the Grave bridge. 1 at the Mook bridge. That's my 9 Bns. The 6 that are in Nijmegan can barely hold on, I'm finding. XXX corps is threading its way up there now, painfully slow. But there's going to be a long fight to get them through to the rail bridge and an even longer, nastoer one if they trickle across. Then the long road up to Arnhem. The only good thing about my plan is that the entire Arnhem force looks hardly pushed at all. They're just sitting there in the Oosterbeek perimeter, their new SEP well within that perimeter, holding the rail bridge with some ease. I reckon they can wait, but I'm not confident I can get XXX Corps through Nijmegan. First 2 days I had a possible 50 flights a day for airstrikes, though didn't get that many. Got a lot though. Didn't do much good as far as I can see. And it's misty now, so no air support. We'll see. This is a tough scenario, I think. There has to be a reason it was a historical disaster.....

[Arjuna]

I would recommend you send a force of at least two Bn south from Arnhem and attack Nighmegen from the north. Even if they don't get through to the bridge they can tiw down German forces that would otherwise advance southward into Nijmegen. Alternatively, use the Brits to apply pressure on the Arnhem road bridge. It's pointless not using all of your forces.

[Phoenix100]

Good idea - to send 2 Bns sth. I was thinking about it.

At the moment the processor is having real difficulty with so many forces on such a huge map. It's not a bad rig - a Dell studio XPS with an i5 in and plenty of memory. But there must be a mass of crunching going on. It's staggering, in both senses.

Bed now. It's almost 2 in the morning. They'll have to wait until tomorrow for day 4 orders.

[Phoenix100]

Re the new SEP, Dave - see pic below. The troops in the big white ring have been out of supply for nearly twenty four hours. Their SEP is in the small white ring. I haven't noticed any obstructions. Is there something I might have done wrong when I made it. It's their orginal SEP, just moved to this position. Just in case there was something obvious...

[Phoenix100]

And I've noticed some odd behaviour. Feels like the processor can't cope with something so huge, so odd things happen....

HQs seem to be generating new positions and paths, all of their own accord. And this is not when their given rtask expires and they're left without orders. They still have the orders, yet they suddenly up sticks and run. In the pic below 1 para brigade HQ, I think, has upped sticks and is headed south of Nijmegan. The new task is one I've just put in, to stop it. You can see it's intention in grey.

Plus a couple of times I ordered parts of XXX Corps to just sth of Nijmegan and the task marker appeared as normal, then, instantly, a further grey snaking line, leading over the Nijmegan bridge and up to Arnhem!!!!! Like they can read my mind! But what on earth is going on. It was like my task was in bold white, then they tagged on an additional path in grey leading up to Arnhem?

Haven't got saves just yet. But just wondered is any of this rings any bells?

[Phoenix100]

re the post 2 above - does this pic help diagnose anything? I'm thinking, maybe they haven't enough trucks or some such.....



Looks grim. But as you can see, XXX Corps is near. If XXX Corps reach those out of supply boys of the 505th, wil they start taking supply form the XXX Corps base?

[wodin]

Looks to me like your supply is cut by German forces..all the roads have german trrops on them between the SEP and the units..so not sure what the problem is. The trucks wont use the railway line. Again though I could be wrong. To me the German troops in the city are cutting your supply North and their a a few units south cutting the supply down there. Also again check for motorized Movement issues..

[Phoenix100]

I don't think it's that, Wodin, but thanks. I think it might be an issue with (a) not enough trucks, and (b) me not understanding where this base gets its supply from. If it's from the higher base (the 82nd Base) then that's elsewhere and in a bad way. I note the base doesn't seem to have any bulk fuel! (and what does that mean?)I can see clear road paths to the troops that are not interdicted. But also i think the trucks would use the railway.

What's up with the suggested paths below? (Rail use in blue)



Plus all that city graphic includes roads, so they could easily get through without going near the enemy. They don't need a big red road. They can thread through the city blocks, motorized movement rate 10%.

[Lieste]

It seems to be very overloaded ~ mostly by losses?.

Remaining 'unused' supply is 1 ton of 'moveability'. While you only have 8 vehicles still running (in two columns). This is attempting to supply 16 units, plus itself (for the 17 total at the foot).

Basically, everyone is using up ammunition faster than they can get it, and the attempt to bring supply along blocked routes has eroded almost all your ability to move supplies.

505/82 is a spent force, and needs immediate (or sooner) relief from XXX Corps.

Given enough time and no 'internal' enemy presence, you have ample 'on hand' supplies to bring the Regt back to combat effectiveness, though with a mangled 82nd still in existence you may struggle to see much feeding to 505th reserves any time soon... if you have any 'exit' objectives I'd consider 'retreating' 82nd Base or allow it to disband to recover a usable supply route... unless the AI decides to shift 505 to draw from XXX Corps directly.

For future runs it might be useful to reduce the 'calls' for supply priority for the most exposed elements ~ although this makes their immediate task harder and may increase casualties a small amount, it provides a better sustainment, and may reduce casualties overall.

When supply stocks are high it can be beneficial to shift the Supply Hub to be near the centre of gravity of the formation, rather than trying to sit on the SEP ~ you might need to fiddle with settings that reduce the attempts to 'collect' supplies from a "lost" SEP ~ and do try to keep 'eyes' on the SEP even once lost to confirm to the supply code that is isn't "valid".

I'd have to look at 'at start values' to confirm casualties to 505/82 Base, but it at first glance no longer seems adequate to task.

[Lieste]

Roads are favoured strongly for movement ~ you can 'roughly' check the supply route by drawing a 'fastest' or 'avoidance' route from SEP to Base, and from Base to each unit. Anything passing within LOS and effective range of enemy units (even those you only suspect, rather than are displayed) isn't likely to get through and you need to displace the Base, unit or minimise supply priority for the link.

Bringing the Base closer to the supplied units increases the probability that each supply run attempted will succeed. It will increase the risk of being isolated from an airbourne SEP (where you must 'collect' supply), but while the individual risk (larger convoy) is greater, the far fewer needed runs (2x) for a single run, rather than (32x) to get to everyone (and back) make this more survivable overall.

Bigger risk to the Base if you are being overrun ~ though this tends to happen most often when hard-pressed and out of AT or Artillery/Mortar ammunition ~ a day-day risk minimised by being closer to the Base unit.

Note that while access to the SEP is good is an excellent time to choose a good 'sustainable' location for the base... it can then build up, and retain access to dumped supply ~ being retreated/routed is very bad for supply levels. Attempting to run a Regt with the supply dump immediately in the open field where supplies are dropped is not going to end well ~ particularly when the objectives the bulk of the combat forces are going for are miles away.

A very careful balance is needed between retaining access to the SEP/Drop locations long enough to not run out, and not overstretching outnumbered and depleted troops (and their supply echelon) holding too large a perimeter... much depends then on breaking in as quickly as possible with XXX Corps.

[Phoenix100]

Brilliant. Thanks so much, Lieste. Why couldn't I see all that? I note now that the 82nd Base has shifted to draw from the bottom edge road SEP supplying XXX Corps, but the 505 is still drawing from it's own base. It would be nice if I could somehow eradicate the 505 base, so that the 505 would draw from 82 base, but can't see how to do that. No exits on hand.

When I examine the info I note that the 505 base started with 25 jeeps as its 'trucks'. Now, in the E&S, it has 1 left!!!! But the dep tab says 8 vehicles on the road. Which is correct, Lieste - do you know?

Are the trucks that a base uses basically those that appear in the E&S tab?

If so that's my prob. 1 jeep to go round....

And do they never recover? So if my force loses all its supply jeeps/trucks does it basically wither and die, eventually, even if its sitting very near the SEPs? Is this true for regular army units too - the bases don't, as it were, recover from loss of jeeps - they don't over time get more jeeps from off map?

[Lieste]

It has 9. 1 on hand and 8 in convoys. It also has 16 men additional to the E&S.

Casualties in convoys (mostly) to date have been therefore ~ 16, and 32 men - Probably few if any additional casualties from combat though?

[Lieste]

Easy way to 'withdraw' a Base which is truly spent (though this one isn't quite (and you don't yet have secure alternatives to take over)... send it to annoy the Germans ~ Gamey/Naff but it will mostly disband with elements joining nearby infantry/supply elements. Would be good to be able to 'scrounge' M/T from artillery/infantry/HQ units, or to re-arrange supply to bypass/disband/recombine branches of the supply tree, but this isn't available yet... (It can also be made so that there is a no-points exit location on the XXX Corps road, so that depleted Bases can be withdrawn). Bear in mind that you need to open the road first, then move the Base to it, and wait for the 'unsupported' elements to begin drawing from their most convenient base... but that might be better in a really long scenario than having a large branch of combat troops unusable.

There is a limited ability to by-pass supply chain ~ I've seen Div-Arty drawing directly from Army & Corps once the Divisional Base was completely depleted and saturated with requests, but mostly you stick with what you get.

Of course too many elements drawing directly to a higher level Base will saturate the ability to feed supply forward, and also risk the 'trunk' of the supply network too near the front line.