yea

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well to be fair, it was probably more the lousy torpedo than the plane. The TBD was designed in 35 and went into service in 37. At the time it was probably the most advanced plane of it's type. But war brings about change a lot faster than peace. What was excellent in 37 was often obsolete in 41.

Case in point, the A6M - after that, the Zero lived off it's reputation.

[msieving1]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

What about the F5F Chickenhawk, built to replace the F4F in 1943?

F5F-

There really was an F5F, the Skyrocket, a twin engined carrier fighter that never went into production. The prototype was used in developing the F7F Tigercat.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Swordfish was also obsolete... but it had a working torpedo

Dili

If Devastator was obsolete what to say about Swordfish?

warspite1

....and was successful against the Bismarck, Richelieu, Dunkerque and of course at Taranto. No matter how obsolete an aircraft was, you can't put it in a "worst aircraft of WWII" if it achieved such success.

[alanschu]

Just knew the Komet had to be in there! HAHAHA

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

What about the F5F Chickenhawk, built to replace the F4F in 1943?

F5F-

As long as you have the altitude bonus and your fighter pilots have skill ratings in the 70s this air frame will do just swell on anything short of a 4E bomber...

[Cap Mandrake]

I did not know about the TBD hits on the Shoho. Interesting.

What is the difference between the attack on Shoho and Midway?

1) There were only 6 fighters on CAP.

2) AA fire was much weaker

3) The SBD's attacked first, Shoho was already hurt and the ship formation disorganized.


The TBD was not un-airworthy, but it was obsolete. It doesn't really deserve to be on the list. I blame the US Navy...or maybe the Congress. [:)]

[wdolson]

The TBD was still in service merely because its replacement wasn't ready yet. The war started too early. In 1938 the USN issued a specification for a new dive bomber, fighter and torpedo bomber. In the end the only one that was ready on schedule was the TBF which first saw combat at Midway. The F4U had a lot of problems passing carrier quals and the SB2C ended up with a lot of stability problems due to the requirement that two of the new dive bombers had to fit on a carrier elevator. The resulting plane was too short.

The TBD was the world's first carrier monoplane. It was very advanced for the time, but it was past its pill date by 1941 and the Navy knew it. There just was nothing they could do about it.

Bill

[Cap Mandrake]

Torpedo release speed 115 max

Glide bomb speed 200 mph

Lousy range.


I realize aircraft development was advancing quickly but that means you have to accelerate the product cycle or make some other adaptation (all SBD's for example). It may well be true the Navy could not do much between Dec 41 and June 42 but that just means there was a management failure beforehand. Seems to me they could have stolen SBD's dedicated to the Marine Corps.. [:)]

Many crews were lost at Midway because of decisions made before the war. Imagine if there were a more capable torepdo bomber at Midway. All 4 IJN carriers might ahve been sunk right off the bat?

[panzer cat]

You go to war with what you have, not what you want.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Torpedo release speed 115 max

Glide bomb speed 200 mph

Lousy range.


I realize aircraft development was advancing quickly but that means you have to accelerate the product cycle or make some other adaptation (all SBD's for example). It may well be true the Navy could not do much between Dec 41 and June 42 but that just means there was a management failure beforehand. Seems to me they could have stolen SBD's dedicated to the Marine Corps.. [:)]

Many crews were lost at Midway because of decisions made before the war. Imagine if there were a more capable torepdo bomber at Midway. All 4 IJN carriers might ahve been sunk right off the bat?

warspite1

Ditto the FAA - imagine what the RN could have done with a proper aircraft....

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: panzer cat

You go to war with what you have, not what you want.

Yes, of course, but my main point was in regard to prewar preparations. After all, when was the Japanese invasion of China? The writing was on the wall.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Torpedo release speed 115 max

Glide bomb speed 200 mph

Lousy range.


I realize aircraft development was advancing quickly but that means you have to accelerate the product cycle or make some other adaptation (all SBD's for example). It may well be true the Navy could not do much between Dec 41 and June 42 but that just means there was a management failure beforehand. Seems to me they could have stolen SBD's dedicated to the Marine Corps.. [:)]

Many crews were lost at Midway because of decisions made before the war. Imagine if there were a more capable torepdo bomber at Midway. All 4 IJN carriers might ahve been sunk right off the bat?

warspite1

Ditto the FAA - imagine what the RN could have done with a proper aircraft....

Not sure if this is said with a wink or not. Take the Bismarck. A stringbag jammed her rudder and doomed her but amore capable carrier force might have kept her at home.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Torpedo release speed 115 max

Glide bomb speed 200 mph

Lousy range.


I realize aircraft development was advancing quickly but that means you have to accelerate the product cycle or make some other adaptation (all SBD's for example). It may well be true the Navy could not do much between Dec 41 and June 42 but that just means there was a management failure beforehand. Seems to me they could have stolen SBD's dedicated to the Marine Corps.. [:)]

Many crews were lost at Midway because of decisions made before the war. Imagine if there were a more capable torepdo bomber at Midway. All 4 IJN carriers might ahve been sunk right off the bat?

warspite1

Ditto the FAA - imagine what the RN could have done with a proper aircraft....

Not sure if this is said with a wink or not. Take the Bismarck. A stringbag jammed her rudder and doomed her but amore capable carrier force might have kept her at home.

warspite1

A wink? No. Just as the USN could have done better at Midway (and elsewhere) with better equipment then so could the FAA.

A more capable carrier force (from the Victorious) could have sunk/damaged Bismarck earlier. A more capable carrier force could have given Cunningham the chance to properly engage the Italians at Calabria or Spartivento. The damage at Taranto could have been much worse or the outcome at Matapan even better.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

A wink? No. Just as the USN could have done better at Midway (and elsewhere) with better equipment then so could the FAA.

A more capable carrier force (from the Victorious) could have sunk/damaged Bismarck earlier. A more capable carrier force could have given Cunningham the chance to properly engage the Italians at Calabria or Spartivento. The damage at Taranto could have been much worse or the outcome at Matapan even better.

Agreed. Not to mention a bit less suffering on the way to Murmansk and a possible shutdown of supply convoys to North Africa.

[wdolson]

The US probably wouldn't have done much better at Midway with TBFs in the CV air groups. The first batch of TBFs had already been delivered to VT-8. They arrived at PH the day after the Hornet left for Midway. Because there was an operational gag order on, the TBFs could not fly out to the carrier. Most of the crews were left cooling their heels in Pearl, however 6 were sent to Midway.

In their first sortie the TBFs from Midway had an identical survivor to loss ration as the 3 TBD squadrons from the carriers. The torpedo planes were dropping a poor torpedo with only limited or no fighter cover against some of the best carrier fighter pilots in the world. The Japanese also put a priority on shooting down torpedo bombers because they saw them as the greater threat. In their own air wings the Kates were the ship killers and the Vals were primarily there to just cause damage to allow the Kates to get through (at least against large ships).

Until 1938 the US didn't have the political will to put much money into new military aircraft. When Roosevelt got money broken free for military build-up, the bulk of the first installment went into ship building. In part because of the long lead time, but also because Roosevelt liked ships. He had been Secretary of the Navy. The Navy issued the specifications for modern carrier aircraft as soon as it was able to, which was 1938. The specification showed a very forward thinking design philosophy. The fighter that came out of that specification remained in the Navy's inventory until around 1955. The torpedo bomber soldiered on in auxiliary roles almost as long.

The Navy was doing the best they could with what they could get politically.

If you want to play the "what if" game with Midway, you should look to the leadership on the Hornet. Waldron was the only really competent commander in the air group. Stanhope Ring, the CAG was someone who had risen in the ranks due to political connections and was completely out of his depth commanding an air group. At Midway Waldron asked that half the fighters cover his TBDs, but Ring refused and insisted that all fighters stay with the SBDs (Ring was flying an SBD). When they were briefing for the mission, Waldron correctly surmised where the KB was from the sighting reports, but Rang didn't believe him and insisted on a course that took him a long ways from the KB. When they set off, Waldron broke from the air group and went his own way. If Waldron had survived, ring probably would have court martialed him.

Ring flew off over empty ocean and found nothing. When his fighter commander told him they had to turn back due to low fuel, Ring ignored him and kept going until the SBDs had to turn back. By that point the Wildcats were past the point of no return. On their own initiative Wildcat pilots started turning around on their own. I believe all of VF-8's F4Fs on the strike were lost. A heroic effort after the battle rescued about half of them, though the PBYs were searching the wrong area at first because Ring lied about where he had flown off to.

If the Hornet SBDs had followed Waldron instead of Ring, they would have found themselves over the KB before the SBDs from the Yorktown and Enterprise arrived. It's unknown if they would have scored any hits. VB-8 and VS-8 scored 0 hits against the Hiryu or the Mikuma and Mogami in the battle. No AG-8 aircraft hit a ship until later in the year in the battles around Guadalcanal.

So the US could have knocked out the KB in one strike if two things that actually were possible had happened:

1) They had a better AG commander
2) One of the 36 SBDs had scored on the Hiryu when they got there early.

Bill

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Until 1938 the US didn't have the political will to put much money into new military aircraft. When Roosevelt got money broken free for military build-up, the bulk of the first installment went into ship building. In part because of the long lead time, but also because Roosevelt liked ships. He had been Secretary of the Navy. The Navy issued the specifications for modern carrier aircraft as soon as it was able to, which was 1938. The specification showed a very forward thinking design philosophy. The fighter that came out of that specification remained in the Navy's inventory until around 1955. The torpedo bomber soldiered on in auxiliary roles almost as long.

The Navy was doing the best they could with what they could get politically.
Bill

Yes, I figured there was an isolationist thing going on in the Congress. That's why I mentioned them. [;)] Once the war started the application of technology, innovation in equipment and tactics and and the massive upsurge in industrial output was truly amazing.

The Navy was perhaps the quickest branch to adapt.

I imagine you are talking about the Corsair. Great aircraft, no dobt.

[witpqs]

Plus if both of Yorktown's SBD squadrons had been sent on the strike.

[borner]

It's easier to point at aircraft that were outdated by the time combat started. My question would be the 10 worst planes that came into production AFTER sept 39.

[wdolson]

Or at least were in development when the war started and went into production anyway. I would include the Boulton Paul Defiant on the list.

Bill

[JeffroK]

The Defiant shot down more Luftwaffe aircraft in the Blitz of 1940-41 than any other type.

Far from a succesful type, it was also far from a failure.
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/battle- ... fiant.html
It was also used as a RADAR support aircraft, jamming German RADARs until better aircraft were available.