The campaign in Burma has not bee quiet, despite all apperances. It's actually very complex - and I'm hoping John doesn't realize that. Here's how its unfolding:
1. In early '42, the Allies retired in Burma without giving much of a fight. John was delighted to take the area without committing much.
2. The Allied retreat accomplished two things: (a) added weight to the appearance that the Allies were building NE India strong (thus discouraging John from invading) and (b) since Burma seemed to be a backwater, John didn't feel the need to devote troops there.
3. The Allies then began backfilling, first to Kolemyo and now towards the line of jungle hexes (see below) so that they will be in a position to attack into the clear terrain sooner rather than later and to give the Allied airforce a good shot at enemy troops in clear terrain. The move into the jungle hexes is ongoing and will take weeks, but I don't think John is aware of what's going on.
4. Eventually John's going to want to move on Myitkyina, but when he does so he's going to notice all those jungle hexes have Allied troops. I"m not sure he'll feel comfortable moving on Myitkyina while a fairly large enemy army is right on his flank. So it's possible the Allies will be able to hold onto this key base.
When I first began retreating in Burma, my main objective was to attend to NE India. It wasn't until about March that I began to really see how the big picture might come together.
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"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
The campaign in Burma has not bee quiet, despite all apperances. It's actually very complex - and I'm hoping John doesn't realize that. Here's how its unfolding:
1. In early '42, the Allies retired in Burma without giving much of a fight. John was delighted to take the area without committing much.
2. The Allied retreat accomplished two things: (a) added weight to the appearance that the Allies were building NE India strong (thus discouraging John from invading) and (b) since Burma seemed to be a backwater, John didn't feel the need to devote troops there.
3. The Allies then began backfilling, first to Kolemyo and now towards the line of jungle hexes (see below) so that they will be in a position to attack into the clear terrain sooner rather than later and to give the Allied airforce a good shot at enemy troops in clear terrain. The move into the jungle hexes is ongoing and will take weeks, but I don't think John is aware of what's going on.
4. Eventually John's going to want to move on Myitkyina, but when he does so he's going to notice all those jungle hexes have Allied troops. I"m not sure he'll feel comfortable moving on Myitkyina while a fairly large enemy army is right on his flank. So it's possible the Allies will be able to hold onto this key base.
When I first began retreating in Burma, my main objective was to attend to NE India. It wasn't until about March that I began to really see how the big picture might come together.
Cannot Agree more CR. Those hexes south of Kalemyo are the Key to Central Burma. Once you control them, you force the Jap player to a very unconfortable position cause if you get strong enough you can easily break south in very direction and get to the plains...which means the end of the Japanese efforts in northern Burma.
As long as you keep a those positions, you have a knife right at Japs' jugular in Burma.
In my game versus Brad i managed to get there in force very early and estabilish a strong perimeter in the jungle...which has frustrated Brad's efforts for 18 months now
5/3/42 and 5/4/42
China: John has assembled enough troops in the Changsha and vicinity region that he can give the Chinese a hard time. Right now the "bulge" is still contained, but things are a bit more iffy. Just as a bit of encouragement, I compared where the Japanese are in this game compared to where there were at the same date in the GJ vs. Q-Ball game. In that game, by this point the Japanese already had Changsha and Chengte and were pushing hard towards Chunking. In fact, Changsha fell much earlier than that - March or before. So I'm doing okay.
Burma: An IJ unit on the road west of Schwebo has "spotted" my Indian brigade in the jungle hex. I was hoping this would remain incognito longer. But I think the Allies will definately be able to seize at least three of the hexes and perhaps as many as five. Some of the troops involveed are two UK brigades (experience 80) and 9th Aussie Division. Once those three units occupy a hex Japan probably won't have a prayer of dislodging them.
India: IJN combat TF still loitering near Diego. I think John is feeling out patrol coverage (here and with the other raids in the Pacific).
Australia: The more I think about it, the more unlikely it seems that John will move on the Perth region. He won't have any airbases at first (excepting carrier coverage) while the Allies have Kalgoorlie (3), Perth (6) and Geraldton (2) plus a number of level one bass. Also, with roughly two divisions in the area plus plenty of aircraft, the Allies are present in strength. John would probably need four divisions just to make me sweat. I just can't see him grabbing hold of a potential tar baby. I think it more likely that he'll try something in the Townsville/Cairns area. Three fighter squadrons arrived at Melbourne, fresh from Hawaii. The Allies now have 280 fighters to cover the carriers.
Pacific: Quiet. 9th Marines is aboard transports just a few days east of New Zealand. Originally I wanted to plant this unit at Noumea, but with IJN raiders recently in the area, I'm more likely to divert to Oz.
Overall Assessment: I have some concerns here and there, but at the moment I'm very pleased with the Allied position. The foundation built thus far appears strong.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Very clear, CR, thanks. Seems sloppy of John to allow this situation to develop, given his interest in China in this game.
Just to say the 4E home rule in this game ties CR's hands behind his back. Occupy those hexes and turn 4E's loose on units in open terrian and Burma becomes undefendable. Crossing into the Irrwaddy valley simply becomes a matter of not "if" but when and how many IJ forces will be lost in open terrain. On the other hand John is making the best of IJA 2E's to disrupt the Chineese [8|]
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
Somehow ended up with a duplicate post, so I've edited this one to eliminate the duplication. Later, I'll edit this to insert an actual report of something exciting happening. In the meantime, please enjoy my loquaciousness.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
5/5/42 and 5/6/42
China: Changsha fell. This is truly a sea change, for my entire MLR hinged on this key base. I knew my garrison was a bit tuckered (a recent bombing attack left my biggest unit 77% disrupted, though other units were at 0%), but I didn't think a collapse was imminent. Since everything hinged on Changsha, the fall leaves all kinds of units out of position with poor lines of retreat. IE, this is a mess! Nearly my entire MLR is untenable, including Chengte and Kweilin. I'll watch to see which way or ways John moves, try to slow him down, try to extricate as many of my "hey, I'm stuck out here" units as possible, and continue to configure a secondary line. There's much fighting left to do, but make no mistake this was bad news. (I also think it's the first time I've lost Changsha in any WitP or AE game, so kudos to John.)
Burma: IJ bombers visited the vanguard Indian brigade established on the line of key jungle hexes. I wish I'd had a few more weeks to surreptiously establish this line, but okay. It's possible that John will see the danger here and begin feeding in more troops, which may take some heat off elsewhere. Bottom line, though, is that he's probably too late to sieze the main hexes I'm shooting for.
India: The Allied position in India is almost beyond worrying about now. Pretty soon, I can begin "buying" Indian divisions and feeding them forward into the Upper Burma jungles. (The Allies still have a very thorough "defense in depth" from Chittagong through to Calcutta to Viz and all the interior bases to keep open the LOC to Bombay and Karachi.) The Allies have accumulated 1,800 political poitns towards the effort of buying restricted units. Before I spend PP wholesale, though, I want to see how supply works for my units in the Burmese jungles. India is flush with supply, so I'm hoping the trickle effect will work. If it does, the Allies go all out in Burma. If it doesn't, then it'll be more of an attritional war.
Australia: The little IJ army (400 or 600 AV?) is a hex from Geraldton. This army lacks armor, which is a fatal flaw, though I realize it may be acting merely as a feint while an amphibious assault targets Esperance or Albany or the like. But I just can't see it. The Allies have grown stout in Oz. I think it would take a six-division offensive to make me perspire. And even then I'd be gambling with house money, because the Perth theater is important, but not vital.
Pacific: Lots of IJ activity around the Santa Cruz islands. Two Marine regiments arrived, one at SD and one at East Coast. Since 8th Marines is at Akutan Island in the Aleutians, 2nd Marines just in at SD is likely to prep for an Aluetians target. 5th Marines at East Coast will prep for Tarawa and move down to San Diego. 7th Marines at Seattle is nearly 100% prepped for Adak. I'll have to make a call: do I really foresee a move on the Aluetians before winter? If not, I need to move 7th down to SD and have her prep for Tarawa.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE Burma, note the calendar and the monsoon rules. Was just reading an old thread on this yesterday. It's near the top of the stack somewhere on the forum. Pretty stiff penalties, but for both sides, especially in the north.
I'll hunt around and find the rules, which I know next to nothing about. At the moment, though, all my units in the India/Burma jungle hexes are flush with supply.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Just as a bit of encouragement, I compared where the Japanese are in this game compared to where there were at the same date in the GJ vs. Q-Ball game. In that game, by this point the Japanese already had Changsha and Chengte and were pushing hard towards Chunking. In fact, Changsha fell much earlier than that - March or before. So I'm doing okay.
Yes, thanks for the reminder![8D]
Greyjoy did a good job against me with that Tank assualt, and I was tardy in retreating, which I paid for
I also think something changed in China from older WITP-AE versions; China used to NEVER get rolled, and now it's a real opportunity spot for Japan. Not sure what the change was, but China is definitely weaker.
PS: As Moose says.....note that the Monsoon just started a few days ago, May 1.
From Blackhorse:
"Actually, the initial notes on the monsoon season was off. Its confirmed by Andy not being Jan-April, but from 15th of May to the 15th of Oct.
Monsoon affects base supply in Burma region. It does not affect weather in the game.
The main bases affected are the north Burmese ones north of Mandalay and the Assam bases east of Terapo plus Akyab and Chittagong. [And all of Thailand]
The way the new restriction works is that the amount of supply a base can receive per day is X x (Port+AF+Fort) so a base that is a trail base with no main road or rail connection may have a value of 50 say it starts as port 0, af 0, fort 3 then that means the base can receive 50 x 3 or 150 tonnes of supply per day over the jungle trails.
During the monsoon season all bases are reduced to 50% of normal capacity therefore the base will only receive 75 tons per day by land.
Thus the little un-built up bases cannot sustain huge forces
Q-Ball, I hope you don't mind me seeking encouragement where I can find it! Your game vs. GJ and my game vs. PzH were the only two that I've really kept up with about China. Well, that and Bullwinkle's game, but you have to toss out all notions of normalcy with regard to China in that one.
China can be defended pretty well, IMO, but the ability of Japan to fight a one-sided air war is a pretty much a game breaker here. I am confident I could hold China against nearly anybody, but the air war unhinges things.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I also think something changed in China from older WITP-AE versions; China used to NEVER get rolled, and now it's a real opportunity spot for Japan. Not sure what the change was, but China is definitely weaker.
I'm not sure that is true. As a Professional Forum Lurker I recall a bunch of games where Japan did very well in China. In fact I believe China getting rolled was the catalyst that got the way artillery behaves changed (to be less powerful). It seems more likely to me that the answer is "if a reasonable IJ player wants China and invests in it, it is do-able". Of course the resources and time devoted have implications on other theatres...
I think CR got a little over confident in Changsha - he kept seeing failed attacks and assumed IJ was breaking itsself against his walls. Only seeing it from CR's perspective it is a bit surprising. The IJ's approach seemed to lack a concentration of force and instead an attempt expected to use maneuver to force the issue. That seems like a fine tactic, but his maneuver didn't seem fully realized yet.
This is an easy arm chair general thing to say of course. Changsha is kind of a tricky spot on the map. (In fact it's probably one of the trickiest spots ont he map...)
As I said before I think China is almost impossible against a determined Japanese attack. At least against an opponent that know what he is doing. At least in most Allied AARs I read China is gone are about to be.
1. Supply is too low for the Chinese. It might be enough to sustain the Chinese but not enough to let them recover. So once things start going downhill the do so FAST.
2. IJAAF. There is simply no way to defend against the massed bombers. Almost all Chinese bases will be in red supply after only a few weeks so no combat missions (CAP/LRCAP) can be flown.
3. Armor. There is no defense against this for the Chinese. Even when getting 4:1 or better against armored units the Chinese suffer massive casualties while the Japanese tanks suffer almost none.
All this is my own opinion based on loosing China in one game and about to loose it again in my second! I hope I´m proven right in the future. That way I can always blame the game and not my own bad play! [:D]
5/7/42
China: Too early to tell which way John will go from Changsha. Too soon for any of my units to make headway. I'm going to have trouble with alot of units getting cut off and pummeled, so the next month is going to be painful in China.
Burma: SigInt reports 4th Division (the conquerors of Cocos Island and later part of the Java campaign) is bound for Burma. This is essentially ironclad proof that John isn't making a big move on India. While Ceylon isn't safe by any means, I will continue to move Indian units forward towards the front lines, reinforcing the Cox's Bazaar and Kalemyo sectors.
India: I'm awaiting an Oz engineer unit (100% prepped Cocos) to arrive at Bombay from Cochin. When it does so, I may go ahead and load the invasion force. I want to have this group at sea in case an opportunity presents itself in the next few weeks. If it doesn't, the troops will likely move to Oz to join other Cocos-prepped troops (to make the Cocos operation logistically easier should I ever pull the trigger).
Oz: The little IJA stack is one hex outside Geraldton. I'm waiting to see what happens next. Esperance airfield goes to level two, giving the Allies four "real" bases to work with in theater. Lots of fuel is arriving at Melbourne . Quite a few American base forces to arrive incoming weeks.
Pacific: Yikes! Enemy patrol planes near Auckland! I'm not sure yet whether it/they come from subs or carriers. I have a small combat TF and two nice tankers there. Some of these ships to flee and a few to remain in place.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
India is flush with supply, so I'm hoping the trickle effect will work. If it does, the Allies go all out in Burma. If it doesn't, then it'll be more of an attritional war.
I can tell you that once the forward bases are built up -- supply will flow to the Irrawaddy Valley. N=2 PBEM games. Much to the strong objection of the IJ "This game is sooo borked -- its impossible!!!" I have supported 2 US Army divisions, the AUS I Corps and 5 Commonwealth division equalvalents invading Burma in 1942. You will have to use 4E's to supress air fields and you will be unable to smack units in the open .. and because of that you will need more 2E's proficent in ground attack than I have needed .. but believe me it can be done .. the HQ bonuses is really gravy in this theater ... and once the Irrawaddy Valley falls in 1942 ... it is game over in 1944 ...See my AAR Newbie vs. WiTP and a couple of posting showing my Burma campaign in my second game ... Allied Armor in the Irrawaddy valley produces the same results as IJ armor in China [;)]
I might add that training low nav pilots is critical also to a Burma campaign... For example, the IJN will be visting Moulumein once you take this base and this base is key for any adventures into Thailand ... .. Low Nav attacks using B25's out to a full 11 hexes will be very discouraging to the IJN parking just to maximum range to bombard at night .. The rest of DB's/TB's have too short of range and the IJ can get in and out before an attack ...the really beautiful thing is if a BB is hurt but not crippled to produce an escort TF .. This will slow the bombardment TF to stall in range of the other shorter ranged LB/DB's/TBs' ...then the IJ will be most reluctant to keep bombarding .... [:D] Docup showed me that P39's carry bombs and can be effective at low nav attacks too ...
It will be interesting if you decide to committ to a full Burma Campaign ..
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
From Blackhorse:
"Actually, the initial notes on the monsoon season was off. Its confirmed by Andy not being Jan-April, but from 15th of May to the 15th of Oct.
Monsoon affects base supply in Burma region. It does not affect weather in the game.
The main bases affected are the north Burmese ones north of Mandalay and the Assam bases east of Terapo plus Akyab and Chittagong. [And all of Thailand]
The way the new restriction works is that the amount of supply a base can receive per day is X x (Port+AF+Fort) so a base that is a trail base with no main road or rail connection may have a value of 50 say it starts as port 0, af 0, fort 3 then that means the base can receive 50 x 3 or 150 tonnes of supply per day over the jungle trails.
During the monsoon season all bases are reduced to 50% of normal capacity therefore the base will only receive 75 tons per day by land.
Thus the little un-built up bases cannot sustain huge forces
"
That's the thread. Thanks.
Key seems to be to build, build, build the northern bases.
