Build 4.4.258 Feedback

[Arjuna]

Hi all,

So what do you think of the latest build? How is it playing? Are their any showstopper issues? We need your feedback here. Thanks.

[miya]

I got my first CTD after issueing move orders to the 3.502 in the Eindhoven scenario.

[miya]

the saved game, please change the file extension from .txt to .zip

[dazkaz15]

Hi Dave

The formations are great. I saw an arrowhead formation do exactly what it is meant to do. The point Coy made contact, and the two flanks moved round to envelop it. Very nicely done.

I have had two crashes so far, both times when using the Del key to delete an order waypoint. Both times on the saves I was not able to replicate it [:(]

Having been playing the old released version, I am still finding it hard to get to grips with the ammo expenditure. It's just so different from that version.

To that end I have been doing some testing of my own, from a scenario I made up just to test this out. I deleted all the Arty from the map so it was pure Inf on Inf engagement and also deleted the supply depots. The results are in my screenshot.

It takes a whole Bn 45 min or normal ammo expenditure to completely burn through its supply of ammo. In that time they will have done minimal damage to an Enemy Coy dug in. I actually did three tests using dug in, entrenched and deployed.
Bizarrely the entrenched ones took more damage, but I only did one test of each so it was probably just a random thing.

This ammo problem can have very extreme consequences.
It almost completely prohibits any kind of deep penetration of the enemy lines, any paras out of supply, are almost completely useless as they don't even have enough ammo to take a single enemy Coy position. Worst of all though is if your supply line is cut even a Bn with full supplies would not have enough ammo to come back and clear a Coy from the route if it was on the wrong side of it.

Which brings me to another balance problem. The units are far to resilient now, they hardly ever rout, but worst is they will just fight to the death if surrounded or more usually they just retreat and pass right through the envelopment. This results in ping ponging, units that you can never pin down, and walk all over your rear lines, which brings you back to the ammo problem [:'(]

Maybe I'm just finding it tricky because I'm use to the old version, and just need to adapt to the new.

What do you other guys think?

Edit:
I have just noticed the stubbornness is Tenacious on that unit. Maybe I should test with some other settings. I guess Tenacious means they will fight to the death right? [8|]

[wodin]

Surely you don't want units routing often again? We say they rout to much Dave sorts it..then say they don't rout enough...he is in a no win situation. I much prefer units retreating to routing it feels more realistic. Maybe when they are surrounded they should surrender more..but they wouldn't rout anyway as there is no where to route too.

As for the ammo situation..some tweaking for ammo conservation needs to be looked at..and maybe be more lethal with the ammo they spend. Also units be give more ammo maybe esp if defending? Some German MG teams in WW1 on July 1st went through 20,000 rounds..just one MG team 5 barrel changes..each one after 5,000 rounds!

Please look at other things..but lets leave rout alone for abit. It's taken this long to stop them routing all the time and I'd rather see units have abit of backbone than too weak.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Surely you don't want units routing often again? We say they rout to much Dave sorts it..then say they don't rout enough...he is in a no win situation. I much prefer units retreating to routing it feels more realistic. Maybe when they are surrounded they should surrender more..but they wouldn't rout anyway as there is no where to route too.

As for the ammo situation..some tweaking for ammo conservation needs to be looked at..and maybe be more lethal with the ammo they spend. Also units be give more ammo maybe esp if defending? Some German MG teams in WW1 on July 1st went through 20,000 rounds..just one MG team 5 barrel changes..each one after 5,000 rounds!

Please look at other things..but lets leave rout alone for abit. It's taken this long to stop them routing all the time and I'd rather see units have abit of backbone than too weak.

Yeah I absolutely agree with you wodin.
It's the surrender thing that needs looking at I think not the routing.
I think I'm right in saying that most units historically when surrounded, surrendered rather than fight to the death, not including the Japanese that is,
I must say it was a real LOL moment when I noticed that unit I was testing with was set to Tenacious while reading the post after it was posted [:'(]

I think the ammo does need a tweak, but like I said, I have got used to the old version again where the ammo lasts for ever, so maybe Dave feels its right now?

[dazkaz15]

Oh yeah the bombardment box is open ended instead of square. but I expect you know that by now [:'(]

[Arjuna]

daz,

First off, 45 minutes of fire is what I would expect line units to be able to maintain. In fact if they were firing each and every minute they might not have that much. Your average foot MG team had 500 rounds with them. At 20 rds per min this would give them 25 minutes. However, once they get to 25% they will drop to low rates of 10 rpm so they should be able to last 31 minutes. But there will be times within that firefight that they don't fire. moreover, not all of the weapons in a unit get to fire because of their formation and deployment etc. So 45 minutes sounds pretty right.

Now you say these were against dig in and entrenched units. I would be interested to see what the cas effect on the defenders were for deployed units. There is a reason why units dug in. It offers very significant reduction to enemy direct and indirect fire. The code now reduces this effect if the units are very close or overlapping, but even so I would expect a big difference. That's why if you encounter a dug in enemy you do need to soften them up with arty and have supporting direct fire as well as the moving assault force. There is some scope to further tweak the reduction in effect of dug in and entrenched and fortified units. But first, lest see what results you get from a test against deployed defenders and see if this is resonable. If it's not then perhaps we need to look at something else.

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Oh yeah the bombardment box is open ended instead of square. but I expect you know that by now [:'(]

No I had not. Thanks.

Daz,

I have just checked and opn mu machine if you order a bombardment you get a closed bombardment box, not an opened one. Are you sure you are not getting confused with the box drawn around the arty unit when you give it a defend order with a specific facing. then it will have an open ended box, but that's its task perimeter for defending at its location.

[wodin]

Dave wouldn't some of the halftracks lets say carry lots of spare ammo for the units? 500 round son hand sounds right..but surely they had access to far more ammo during a sustained attack alot closer than the supply depot?

Or maybe units should be calling in resupply when down to say 30% or 40% ammo..so when they run out it's more or less turning up to be issued.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Oh yeah the bombardment box is open ended instead of square. but I expect you know that by now [:'(]

Confirming. IIRC I already noticed that in the last build, but somehow thought it was a new feature (ARTY shell fall pattern something)[X(]

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Oh yeah the bombardment box is open ended instead of square. but I expect you know that by now [:'(]

Confirming. IIRC I already noticed that in the last build, but somehow thought it was a new feature (ARTY shell fall pattern something)[X(]

Show me - I need a screen dump.

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Dave wouldn't some of the halftracks lets say carry lots of spare ammo for the units? 500 round son hand sounds right..but surely they had access to far more ammo during a sustained attack alot closer than the supply depot?

In mechanised units you will often see them with more ammo on hand but I was talking about a bog standard leg inf unit.

Or maybe units should be calling in resupply when down to say 30% or 40% ammo..so when they run out it's more or less turning up to be issued.

They do start requesting supplies once the level falls below 50%. It just takes a lot of time to get to them.

[RockinHarry]

Sort of glitch I think. Just fired up St vith, german side and with game paused at H0, I test ordered bombardement with all german mortars and IG units one after a time. Sometimes the odd open ended box appears and next time it does not, with varying units. As said, also saw that happen in running game.

[RockinHarry]

It´s not always that mortar unit in Steinebrück. Could also be any other, or vanishes entirely before happenening to another unit. I control clicked units and bombard markers, to show that it also mixes with the normal footprints.

[Arjuna]

RH,

Thanks for that. Interesting. We'll have to see if we can get to the bottom of it.

[RockinHarry]

Beside the box sometimes beeing open ended, I did not notice any side effects and actual bombardment appears to be resolved normally. I keep an eye on it during next test runs...

[Renato]

The order cancellation bug is still present: now and then during play, some units cancel their order and remain still.

This should be quite visible by a human player; of course, if the test is performed with a computer, it may go undetected because the AI will do a replan after some time.

[loyalcitizen]

When I give a command unit a Defend order, the Auto button is unchecked under the FACING compass. Intentional?
I've always preferred that the commander decides that unless I step in. Prefer it was left checked.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Renato

The order cancellation bug is still present: now and then during play, some units cancel their order and remain still.

This should be quite visible by a human player; of course, if the test is performed with a computer, it may go undetected because the AI will do a replan after some time.

Just check your not trying to give an order to a wheel unit to impassable terrain for a wheel unit..just a thought