Caspian Crusade

[Michael T]

M60 has conceded. He has been an excellent opponent and his counter attacks around Vyzama and Kalinin were the most agressive I have faced.

Seminole I spent turns 7 and 8 flying in gas at the limit of the supply net. Also HQBU a few corp in the rear and then moving up to the line topping up via the normal supply net. My railhead is just shy of Smolensk. It was a fun game [:)]

[schascha]

excellent game

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

While ppl can try and save the tanks divs, by avoding routs and the roll for that. Other wise its a 20% total random chance per unit, per turn, so its a crap shoot whether u will have (m)any by 1942. U could have non or u could have 10. Given reasonble statiscal rolls u shouldnt have many if any, but play enough and u will have "the lucky rolls" and thats the joy of the RandomNumberGenerator. I do understand what ppl mean by the saving part, but really its a crap shoot on the 20% ToE rolls.

Does the div/bde conversion chance start on turn 1?
If I understand you correctly there is an 80% chance to remain a tank division each turn. But over 20 turns that would be about a <1% chance (per unit), right?
(always preferred history to math)

ORIGINAL: Seminole

While ppl can try and save the tanks divs, by avoding routs and the roll for that. Other wise its a 20% total random chance per unit, per turn, so its a crap shoot whether u will have (m)any by 1942. U could have non or u could have 10. Given reasonble statiscal rolls u shouldnt have many if any, but play enough and u will have "the lucky rolls" and thats the joy of the RandomNumberGenerator. I do understand what ppl mean by the saving part, but really its a crap shoot on the 20% ToE rolls.

Does the div/bde conversion chance start on turn 1?
If I understand you correctly there is an 80% chance to remain a tank division each turn. But over 20 turns that would be about a <1% chance (per unit), right?
(always preferred history to math)

Apart from the rout roll, which can occur from turn 1. The Tank divisions ToE upgrade to tank bde starts at turn 12/september 1941. Yes, the ToE upgrade is a 20% roll per turn or 80% chance of staying. I guess one could curcumvent the rules regarding those tho IMO that would be exploiting those rules, but thats just me.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

P.S Oh, this is this MTs AAR, gratz on the win

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Michael T
M60 has conceded. He has been an excellent opponent and his counter attacks around Vyzama and Kalinin were the most agressive I have faced.

Seminole I spent turns 7 and 8 flying in gas at the limit of the supply net. Also HQBU a few corp in the rear and then moving up to the line topping up via the normal supply net. My railhead is just shy of Smolensk. It was a fun game [:)]

Congratulations, Michael. This is a Barbarossa advance at is best. Looking at the map, you bypassed some areas, invested LG early and thus shifted the mainstay of the Panzergroup south very early. You have many infantry units lagging behind, and in some areas your advancing forces are spread thin, but it worked. A perfect use of forces. And despite heavy fighting and counter-attacks as you said, you made Moscow by mid August's turn 10. That is simply amazing. One of the quickest games ever.

Could you elaborate a bit on M60's heavy counterattacks -- did they have any serious effect on you such as attrition, supply issues or whatever, or where they rather harmless from your view point? And how was your supply situation lately? Turn 10 Moscow sounds like there is no significant logistic limit for you at this point yet, or is it that you units are now all very low on replacements/supply/fuel/ and MP (in yellow or red state)?

[Michael T]

M60's attacks surprised me. For example he pushed a strong Pz XX out of Kalinin, he also relieved a small pocket around Vyzama about 3 turns in a row. It finally got to the point in that pocket where I lost patience and routed them. He used a mass of ID for each attack and they rarely failed. You have to ask him about his command structure but it seemed his CV was quadrupled on many occasions. It was somewhat unnerving because I really tried to tie up the Vyzama pocket and pushing my Pz xx of of Kalinin was annoying. But after studying the situation I thought well if he is strong in that area he must be weak elsewhere. So when I put it in to that context I figured let him keep attacking me in those areas and I will go elsewhere. And his attacks were not just one attack, he usually attacked 2 or 3 hexes in the area. It really was something I had not encountered before. Very aggressive Soviet play. If the units he was using had survived (they almost all must have ended up in pockets) they would have made Guard status very early. Might have been a nasty blizzard if we had got that far.

So overall no series effect on me. But not insignificant.

I was always operating at the fringe of the supply net after T3 in the centre and T6 in the south. On T7 and T8 in the Centre I virtually did nothing, just getting in to position, Inf catching up, and stocking up gas, there was some bluffing on my part as well.

The single most important thing I do now is let the Mot Inf do most of the running around and use Panzer gas for attacks and shorter runs. Fuel efficiency is the key for the Axis in 41. Always has been in this game. You need to devise methods to account for different problems. My tank strength in this game is the best it has ever been because I used them sparingly. You have to out manoeuvre the Red Army, a slugfest will lead to defeat.

[M60A3TTS]

Another short campaign. Well by taking on Pelton, Saper, and MT, no one can accuse me of going after the small fry. No great sorrow at this end, I have another game going where the Axis is about to go into rasputitsa with Moscow well out of range and Stalino/Kharkov in Soviet hands. Meanwhile, guards divisions are popping up across the front.

In this one, I'll mention a couple things. First, the Smolensk land bridge. Pelton was speaking largely out of ignorance, going by MTs map when he talked about me having all these units lying around idle in the south. In fact, when you look at what combat units I had there at turn 2 you would see there was no excess at all.



Keep in mind the extended Lvov pocket wipes out 3/4 of the combat units of Southwestern Front. There are some remaining divisions, but there's also an assortment of security regiments that go away, along with weak para brigades and tank units that only rarely are in a postion to make deliberate attacks, and then they are pretty much sacrificed as they get surrounded the following turn. By turn 3 there are some reinforcements coming in, but it's hardly an avalanche considering the shape of the Western and Northwestern Fronts. Flavius talks about picketing the center of the land bridge, and sending the reinforcements in the swamps around Vyazma. I'd like to see an example of that. My guess is MT goes right on through such a defense. I'm not clear what Flavius would propose next. Soviet units are then in a challenging situation with only two east-west rail lines at VL and Staraya Russia if you need to back them out in a hurry.

The rapid encirclement of my units defending behind the southern Dnepr just goes to show that with the fort nerf of a while back, it's not hard for the Axis to get over a major river obstacle. I could have checkerboarded behind the Dnepr, but that likely wouldn't have changed anything as my southern units were in a weak state regardless. It's one of those things that in reality shouldn't happen, but the game is what it is. MT did a great job managing his fuel situation and I paid the price. I don't believe you can simply run away in the south all the way to Rostov without making sure first of all that you can safely get out the large arms factories along the way. There are more than the 30 at risk in the south which Pelton casually throws out as a figure, plus there are the vehicles in Kharkov to be considered. If you are planning on tank and mech forces of considerable numbers, then you have to have the vehicles available to support them. If the Axis can also threaten to lock down Tula and its large arms cache, there are some hard choices for the Soviet player to make. That's one reason, I'd be reluctant to picket the land bridge at Smolensk.

As far as the counterattacks go, I had my best rifle units in line in front of Moscow, taking a few of the remaining strong tank divisions from the south. I also had a full strength army of cav divisions in the area for pocket breaking and extra attack units where it made sense. I prefer to attack with as many units as I can to max their win rates and put them on the fast road to guards status.

[Flaviusx]

M60, the idea is to basically abandon the landbridge area and start setting up the real MLR along Rzhev-Vyazma-Bryansk. Don't reinforce the area at all with the starting reserve armies. They go north. Then the mass cadre reinforcements arriving assume positions along the as indicated above. The landbridge area is covered with a screen of whatever survivors you've got from West Front. There won't be many of those left after turns 1-2.

For whatever it is worth, despite your mistakes, I think anybody playing MT on non random weather is nuts. He just knows how to trick out the logistics system too good. You need some unanticipated mud turns to slow him down and bring the op tempo down something approaching reality. I fear for Bobo.

[Michael T]

Robert asked me for the game. I told him my conditions and that HE could choose his side. I am happy to play either under these conditions. HE chose Soviet. The only time I will play with random weather is when the German player requests it (he can sign his own death warrant).

As for trickery, if just being super efficient with available resources and non wasteful means being tricky then I guess I am tricky. If only using the amount of force (and thus fuel) required and not using overkill means tricky then yeah I am tricky. I guess the next patch better nerf intelligence.

[Flaviusx]

There won't be any nerfing, it's a done deal until WITW. No changes are in the offing.

But I shake my head at your easy acceptance of what you are doing from a historical standpoint. It is fantastical. I salute your skill but deplore that it is even possible to do the things you do. It is a failure in game design.

[821Bobo]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
For whatever it is worth, despite your mistakes, I think anybody playing MT on non random weather is nuts. He just knows how to trick out the logistics system too good. You need some unanticipated mud turns to slow him down and bring the op tempo down something approaching reality. I fear for Bobo.

Actually I was considering to ask Michael for random weather as I usually play with random weather. But even with random weather you do not have any warranty of mud turn. It can even be disadvantage for Soviets if you are unlucky(me vs notenome).
If Michael wants to play with non random, I do not have any problem with it.

[Flaviusx]

On balance and on average, random weather is to the Soviet advantage in 1941 although not necessarily in future years. It's true the rolls can blow up in your face and make things worse (too many snow turns, for example. Or even mud in the wrong time or place.)

The main thing, I think, is it introduces an element of uncertainty and makes it harder to min/max the game and make perfect plans and squeeze every last drop out of the game mechanics...and break the game in the process. It gives the attacker pause. It should in theory help slow the pace of the game down.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Michael T
M60's attacks surprised me. For example he pushed a strong Pz XX out of Kalinin, he also relieved a small pocket around Vyzama about 3 turns in a row. It finally got to the point in that pocket where I lost patience and routed them. He used a mass of ID for each attack and they rarely failed. You have to ask him about his command structure but it seemed his CV was quadrupled on many occasions. It was somewhat unnerving because I really tried to tie up the Vyzama pocket and pushing my Pz xx of of Kalinin was annoying. But after studying the situation I thought well if he is strong in that area he must be weak elsewhere. So when I put it in to that context I figured let him keep attacking me in those areas and I will go elsewhere. And his attacks were not just one attack, he usually attacked 2 or 3 hexes in the area. It really was something I had not encountered before. Very aggressive Soviet play. If the units he was using had survived (they almost all must have ended up in pockets) they would have made Guard status very early. Might have been a nasty blizzard if we had got that far.

So overall no series effect on me. But not insignificant.

Hmmh, interesting. So picking together the right units, one can cause trouble for the Wehrmacht. Not serious enough to force it to assume a defensive stance for 4-6 turns (just like happened at the land bridge), but fine. So there is a lack of good enough units and units with enough MP to achieve that, and at the same time not to weaken other important areas too terribly. Since M60 ultimately lost these of his best units then pocketed, I'd think it was an uneven bargain. Perhaps if the Soviet side had better reinforcements to be able to digest their loss, this tactic would make more sense. But at least he tried and he did have some success with it!

ORIGINAL: Michael T
I was always operating at the fringe of the supply net after T3 in the centre and T6 in the south. On T7 and T8 in the Centre I virtually did nothing, just getting in to position, Inf catching up, and stocking up gas, there was some bluffing on my part as well.

The single most important thing I do now is let the Mot Inf do most of the running around and use Panzer gas for attacks and shorter runs. Fuel efficiency is the key for the Axis in 41. Always has been in this game. You need to devise methods to account for different problems. My tank strength in this game is the best it has ever been because I used them sparingly. You have to out manoeuvre the Red Army, a slugfest will lead to defeat.

Nothing to say against the latter logic. Why send a fuel-eating Panzer division, when a unit on motorbikes, trucks and PSW can do the job. Saper had that one ought right, especially since the CV of Mot. Divs is quite sufficient in most cases, anyway.
What surprises me, though, is that despite the supply issues you still managed to advance so quickly and successfully. I mean it is turn ten, barely 2 months into Barbarossa. Basically the Barbarossa schedule. Given that you did not advance without fighting, i.e. logistics could not purely focus on fuel, my thinking is that one should be facing a very dry supply/fuel phase at around this point in the came that alone should prevent you to get far past the landbridge or Pskov. I am not sure how others see it, but logistics should be tuned turn some more.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Keep in mind the extended Lvov pocket wipes out 3/4 of the combat units of Southwestern Front. There are some remaining divisions, but there's also an assortment of security regiments that go away, along with weak para brigades and tank units that only rarely are in a postion to make deliberate attacks, and then they are pretty much sacrificed as they get surrounded the following turn. By turn 3 there are some reinforcements coming in, but it's hardly an avalanche considering the shape of the Western and Northwestern Fronts. Flavius talks about picketing the center of the land bridge, and sending the reinforcements in the swamps around Vyazma. I'd like to see an example of that. My guess is MT goes right on through such a defense. I'm not clear what Flavius would propose next. Soviet units are then in a challenging situation with only two east-west rail lines at VL and Staraya Russia if you need to back them out in a hurry.

The rapid encirclement of my units defending behind the southern Dnepr just goes to show that with the fort nerf of a while back, it's not hard for the Axis to get over a major river obstacle. I could have checkerboarded behind the Dnepr, but that likely wouldn't have changed anything as my southern units were in a weak state regardless. It's one of those things that in reality shouldn't happen, but the game is what it is. MT did a great job managing his fuel situation and I paid the price. I don't believe you can simply run away in the south all the way to Rostov without making sure first of all that you can safely get out the large arms factories along the way. There are more than the 30 at risk in the south which Pelton casually throws out as a figure, plus there are the vehicles in Kharkov to be considered. If you are planning on tank and mech forces of considerable numbers, then you have to have the vehicles available to support them. If the Axis can also threaten to lock down Tula and its large arms cache, there are some hard choices for the Soviet player to make. That's one reason, I'd be reluctant to picket the land bridge at Smolensk.

As far as the counterattacks go, I had my best rifle units in line in front of Moscow, taking a few of the remaining strong tank divisions from the south. I also had a full strength army of cav divisions in the area for pocket breaking and extra attack units where it made sense. I prefer to attack with as many units as I can to max their win rates and put them on the fast road to guards status.

This is a fascinating summary from your point of view ... and incredibly useful. I think one key learning skill with this game is to think back to decisions you made and try to disentangle what went well (& to plan), where you did the best you could (due to circumstances) and what you'd do different next time.

[hugh04]

Would like to respond to MT's comment about a slugfest being bad for the axis. I believe the opposite. Over the summer of 41 repeated successful infantry deliberate attacks are very advantageous. The damage is not what happens in one turn, it is what happens over 10 or 12. Personally, I start every axis turn by launching as many infantry winning deliberate attacks as I possibly can. I do not shave the odds, I want each attack to win which for me means atleast 2 to 1 in displayed attack cv vs defensive cv.

Of course armor should be used effeciently and to maximize damage via manuever and pockets. Maybe even an armor deliberate attack against a strongpoint to open up the scope for other armor units to exploit. But this game rewards successful attackers and in 41 the axis really can be successful everywhere if he plans for it. Do not be afraid of a slugfest. Instead plan for it as a supplement to great armor play.

I really enjoyed this short AAR so I can learn ways to make armor more effective. MT is a master fuel chief.

vandev

[Flaviusx]

Grinding can be effective in a game that lasts longer than 10 turns. MT doesn't play long games. I'm not sure he has even reached 1942 as the Axis yet. His methods are quite efficient and grinding need not apply.

[Michael T]

IMO a slugfest will get you a loss against Soviets who know their business. I love a challenge Vandev so next time I am playing Soviet I am open to having a game against your grinding style [:)]

I have reached 1942 once against Smokindave. He is a very resilient Soviet player.

[hugh04]

Mr. MT I am not suggesting grind only. Panzers are and must be used well and creatively to inflict maximum destruction. My only point is ppl talk about panzers and pockets and never really about the power of german infantry. I am only suggesting using all the tools the game gives you. And yes I use panzers and try to learn from others AAR's (like yours) how to use those panzers better. I am playing a well knownsoviet player now and just sent in turn 24. Soviet order of battle at end of axis turn 24 is 4mm and total dead at end of turn 24 is 4mm. German army is exhausted and the blizzard retreat is about to start. I am hoping the soviet cannot attack too hrd but ready to run and give up alot of terrain. Moscow, Rostov and Vorenzh did not fall to the axis attack but the rest have.

The grind is only a supplement, but if you can concentrate your engineersand artillery you can reduce the value of forts in a limited area. Panzers are still good just they are not the axis only tool. Use them all.

vandev

[Michael T]

Well I misunderstood you, my appologies [:)]

But there is a school of thought that promotes a simple grind ahead mentality and forgets the finesse of the pocket style. I prefer to move my INF xx in to positions where they assist in the planned breakthru rather than simply attack the nearest foe that lies in an easterly direction.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IMO a slugfest will get you a loss against Soviets who know their business. I love a challenge Vandev so next time I am playing Soviet I am open to having a game against your grinding style [:)]

I have reached 1942 once against Smokindave. He is a very resilient Soviet player.

We are in March of 43 silly, flip side of things

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: vandev

Mr. MT I am not suggesting grind only. Panzers are and must be used well and creatively to inflict maximum destruction. My only point is ppl talk about panzers and pockets and never really about the power of german infantry. I am only suggesting using all the tools the game gives you. And yes I use panzers and try to learn from others AAR's (like yours) how to use those panzers better. I am playing a well knownsoviet player now and just sent in turn 24. Soviet order of battle at end of axis turn 24 is 4mm and total dead at end of turn 24 is 4mm. German army is exhausted and the blizzard retreat is about to start. I am hoping the soviet cannot attack too hrd but ready to run and give up alot of terrain. Moscow, Rostov and Vorenzh did not fall to the axis attack but the rest have.

The grind is only a supplement, but if you can concentrate your engineersand artillery you can reduce the value of forts in a limited area. Panzers are still good just they are not the axis only tool. Use them all.

vandev

I used the grind vs M60 in our game with pockets as needed. I have tried to stay away from gaming the fuel system as at some pt it will get nerfed.

Grinding using the standard system works just fine, just requires a long view planning.

MT's style has always worked for quick wins, which is fine and is working for him.

The same fuel exploits can be used by SHC during blizzard to great effect, seeing the air forse is 3x the size of GHC. SHC units that get cut off will still have 40+ MP's the next turn.

witw and wite 2 hopefully will not have this sillyness or Patton will be in Berlin by July 44

Bobo knows how to use the current system as GHC and SHC so his game vs MT should be a good one.


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