Assaulting

[dazkaz15]

Hope this helps.
If anyone gets different results please post it here, and ill update the picture.
Thanks
Daz

edit: Image updated in the post below

[dazkaz15]

New version.

I can't replace the picture in the original post, as it was uploaded to the forum, and won't let me replace it. so any modifications of the image will have to be new posts.
Sorry for the picture spam [:'(]

[dazkaz15]

I don't like that the bombard order given to the Bn HQ, makes the whole assault hault, and bombard, even the ones that don't have any ranged weapons, then instead of continuing with the assault it completely abandons it.

Is it working as designed?

I have noticed that the mortar team very rarely helps during an assault, even when Arty Direct Spt Only is ticked.
The way I imagined it should work is that the Mortar team becomes on call to the Bn HQ.

If you as a player want to use that mortar team, or any other ranged units attached to your Bn HQ, you could then just click on the HQ, and give the bombardment order for where you want the fire.
All supporting ranged units attached to that HQ then fire on that target.
This order would not affect the line units in their assault at all, and the attack would continue.

At the moment if you need fire support from your mortar team you have three choices, well only one really as the other two will cause the assault to fail.

1, Don't include the mortar into your assault force. Detach it from Bn HQ, move it and use it as needed. This is the best and only option really.

2. Using the mortar team for a bombard order while attached to Bn HQ, during an assault will instantly remove if from the HQ's Force, modifying its force size and causing....well chaos realy.

3. Give the bombard order to the Bn HQ this will cause the whole assault to stop, and abort, but you will get mortar fire on the target at least.

[wodin]

I've never chnaged my assault order on the fly..only the ROF.

[Phoenix100]

Excellent and extremely helpful, Daz. Many thanks. Some of the above I knew and had worked out, some I had no idea about. It's extremely useful to have a quick guide as to what will mess up an assault.

I second what you say about the mortar platoon doing bugger all during an assault. I keep trying to put in assaults (instead of 'secure bridge' for example) hoping the mortar team will put in a prelim barrage, but it doesn't. And you're right, if you then detach it to give it a direct order yourself then the assault gets wrecked - they usually seem to stop, move back, re-org, re-plan etc. I agree with you that the only effective way to use the mortars at the moment seems to be to detach them before you plan and do it manually. But this has changed I think. Some while back - long pre-patch 4, I mean - I started a thread about securing bridges and ensuring they were bombarded before an assault (as this normally guarantees, if ferocious enough and proximate enough to the assault, that the bridge will not be blown) and would the AI do that? Dave replied that it shuld if you tick arty support, and I tested this and it did work - that is, I think it used to be possible to order a Bn to either secure a crossing or attack it (with secure ticked) and its mortar would bombard prior to the assault. But now it doesn't seem to happen at all.

Many thanks, again.


Example of assault abandoned (or subject to re-plan) because I gave the mortar a fire order after it did nothing at all (it was slated to move near to the bridge, in fact, along with the infantry). Note what has happened - the 3 line companies were actually Assaulting and en route when I gave the mortar a bombard order. They stopped and are heading back to re-org...... Now, I know what (some) people say about never touching an assault order etc once it's going, but it's perfectly reasonable to tinker with the mortar, I think - especially if it's doing nothing. But you can't. You have to give it separate manual orders, I think, as Daz suggests.

[dazkaz15]

Just found this in the manual, so either something is not working as intended with the bombard order, or the manule needs updating on the topic?

Manual

Changes that Don’t Cause a Replan
Bombard orders don’t cause a replan, because artillery units operated their own radio nets and used procedures that were capable of producing almost instant responses to fire orders. Because artillery generally required time to set up, artillery units on the move may still require some time to get deployed and actually start firing, even though they act on the order immediately.
Fire orders don’t cause replans either.

[Phoenix100]

Yes. I would think something isn't working properly.... On the other hand - I don't really see how it wouldn't cause a replan, to be sensible, because it is detaching a unit, in effect.

[wodin]

Mortar and IG units are the bane of my life in game..little help and first to die. I would like to see some improvement with them. My feelings with regards to Mortar units is that due to the abstract nature of the terrain they can't really find cover to bombard from within range alot of the time s get wiped out.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Yes. I would think something isn't working properly.... On the other hand - I don't really see how it wouldn't cause a replan, to be sensible, because it is detaching a unit, in effect.

A mortar platoon firing in support of its own parent formation would not be detaching it from the force.

Far from it.

Each Coy commander has its own embedded FOO, with direct radio, wire or whatever contact to its tubes, or guns.

The same goes for Artillery right up to Divisional level.
Bn HQ would usually have the Artillery regimental commander, CO located, with it, to advise on all matters Artillery.

The attached organic Fire Support is a very integrated part of a Bn.

Read this article, its very informative.
And yes you can expect rounds falling on target accurately with in 3-5 min for prepared fire plans, and within 5-15 for impromptu fire missions.
That's only 3-5 seconds for us game time on normal speed as the game clock ticks in minutes at a time, so very fast response to fire requests.

http://etloh.8m.com/strategy/artil.html

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Just found this in the manual, so either something is not working as intended with the bombard order, or the manule needs updating on the topic?

Manual

Changes that Don’t Cause a Replan
Bombard orders don’t cause a replan, because artillery units operated their own radio nets and used procedures that were capable of producing almost instant responses to fire orders. Because artillery generally required time to set up, artillery units on the move may still require some time to get deployed and actually start firing, even though they act on the order immediately.
Fire orders don’t cause replans either.

That refers to units in a force being given a bombard task. Another matter is to issue the Bombard mission to the HQ - that's going to cause a replan. So assigning Bombard tasks (not Move, not Fire) to units belonging to a force conducting an assault shouldn't cause a replan.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Just found this in the manual, so either something is not working as intended with the bombard order, or the manule needs updating on the topic?

Manual

Changes that Don’t Cause a Replan
Bombard orders don’t cause a replan, because artillery units operated their own radio nets and used procedures that were capable of producing almost instant responses to fire orders. Because artillery generally required time to set up, artillery units on the move may still require some time to get deployed and actually start firing, even though they act on the order immediately.
Fire orders don’t cause replans either.

That refers to units in a force being given a bombard task. Another matter is to issue the Bombard mission to the HQ - that's going to cause a replan. So assigning Bombard tasks (not Move, not Fire) to units belonging to a force conducting an assault shouldn't cause a replan.

Well at the moment if you issue a bombard order to the only unit that can bombard, either the mortar platoon, or IG pl definitely causes a replan, because it detaches it from the Bn HQ.
Does the bombard order actually do anything when you issue it to a line unit? I mean it will stop, and the icon comes up to say its firing but does it actually fire its 2in mortar's? I never see anything coming from them in the way of ranged fire when I do this even when there close.

I'm wondering if buttons like this that do nothing should be greyed out. It just adds to confusion especially for new players.

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

. . .

Well at the moment if you issue a bombard order to the only unit that can bombard, either the mortar platoon, or IG pl definitely causes a replan, because it detaches it from the Bn HQ.
Does the bombard order actually do anything when you issue it to a line unit? I mean it will stop, and the icon comes up to say its firing but does it actually fire its 2in mortar's? I never see anything coming from them in the way of ranged fire when I do this even when there close.

I'm wondering if buttons like this that do nothing should be greyed out. It just adds to confusion especially for new players.

Unless a line unit possesses an indirect fire weapon it shouldn't have the "bombard" order available.

[dazkaz15]

An example of line units bombarding when the order is issued at Bn HQ level.

[wodin]

^ thats odd..you can kind of bombard with MG's not sure if thats modeled in game though..but they have no ammo anyway.

Does seem strange and maybe a bug.

[Phoenix100]

Maybe they're spotting for the mortar. Wow. Haven't seen that before (because I don't think I've ever given a Bn a bombard order). Looks wrong, obviously.

[RockinHarry]

I´ve seen that happening with even larger forces (divisional HQ i.e), given a bombard order and all sub units place a bombard marker, beeing an Arty unit or not.

Anyway, I tend to remove mortars and other hvy wpns from Bn Hq´s and attach them to Rgt HQ instead, so they won´t be moved too far forward into the combat lines and get slaughtered for nothing. Maybe the game works better, if commands are given from Rgt level, instead of Bn. Personally I prefer micro managing, as this appears to be the only way to get reasonably employed units.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

I´ve seen that happening with even larger forces (divisional HQ i.e), given a bombard order and all sub units place a bombard marker, beeing an Arty unit or not.

Anyway, I tend to remove mortars and other hvy wpns from Bn Hq´s and attach them to Rgt HQ instead, so they won´t be moved too far forward into the combat lines and get slaughtered for nothing. Maybe the game works better, if commands are given from Rgt level, instead of Bn. Personally I prefer micro managing, as this appears to be the only way to get reasonably employed units.

That's a great idea mate.

Then maybe move the Regimental HQ between the Bn's but obviously at the rear.
The only problem I can see with this is after you use the mortar, its not as easy to re attach as pressing the re-attach button.
What method do you use to attach them to the Regiment?
Do you just Ctrl click them both, then issue another defend in situ to the Regiment or do you have a better Quicker method?

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Just found this in the manual, so either something is not working as intended with the bombard order, or the manule needs updating on the topic?

That refers to units in a force being given a bombard task. Another matter is to issue the Bombard mission to the HQ - that's going to cause a replan. So assigning Bombard tasks (not Move, not Fire) to units belonging to a force conducting an assault shouldn't cause a replan.

Well at the moment if you issue a bombard order to the only unit that can bombard, either the mortar platoon, or IG pl definitely causes a replan, because it detaches it from the Bn HQ.

If that's happening, then that's a possibly bug, as it is contradicting the manual. Or maybe it depends on the orders of the Force: I haven't seen replans due to bombardments when the mission is Defend.

ORIGINAL: dazkaz
Does the bombard order actually do anything when you issue it to a line unit? I mean it will stop, and the icon comes up to say its firing but does it actually fire its 2in mortar's? I never see anything coming from them in the way of ranged fire when I do this even when there close.

I'm wondering if buttons like this that do nothing should be greyed out. It just adds to confusion especially for new players.

I suspect that units with 0 Bombardment rating aren't conducting any bombardment at all. I agree with this button should be greyed out for units not capable of bombardment.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

I´ve seen that happening with even larger forces (divisional HQ i.e), given a bombard order and all sub units place a bombard marker, beeing an Arty unit or not.

Anyway, I tend to remove mortars and other hvy wpns from Bn Hq´s and attach them to Rgt HQ instead, so they won´t be moved too far forward into the combat lines and get slaughtered for nothing. Maybe the game works better, if commands are given from Rgt level, instead of Bn. Personally I prefer micro managing, as this appears to be the only way to get reasonably employed units.

That's a great idea mate.

Then maybe move the Regimental HQ between the Bn's but obviously at the rear.
The only problem I can see with this is after you use the mortar, its not as easy to re attach as pressing the re-attach button.
What method do you use to attach them to the Regiment?
Do you just Ctrl click them both, then issue another defend in situ to the Regiment or do you have a better Quicker method?

yep, like you say. In the meantime I prefer to set the desired (organic) command structure in the scenmaker. No mortars or IG´s assigned to Bn HQ anymore. To me it also decreases some the issues for the AI as well.

[wodin]

Harry..you really feel you have to micro manage to get a decent game going?

I've always played at Btn level with the odd coy sent here and there.

I can see a game working well though set at coy or platoon scale where you give orders to the individual units using this realtime engine and map set up etc without the higher HQ order aspect...but as this games main feature is the HQ aspect and giving orders to it it kind of defeats the games main purpose if played that way with this particular game anyway. Also I'd want alot lower unit density if a game came out where you give orders to individual units only. I do see a game like that solving alot of the current issues we have at present, however thats why we are giving back all this feedback to get the game to play out as if we've given out the orders to each unit ourselves. Thinking on this if you do micromanage with CO surely thats also taking away some of the leader aspects? As poor positioning could be down to poor leadership within the unit..doing it ourselves then makes that kind of redundant. SO it's a tricky one.

Anyway I'd easily buy a game at Coy or Platoon level where you give orders to individual units who then carry out the order based on their leadership levels, but you don't have this higher up order mechanic. Not only would it be alot easier to programme and get working compared to CO it would also solve alot of the issues we have had with the game.