Hell bent on Lebensraum II (no 821Bobo)

[Flaviusx]

Pelton, MT is on a whole different level. Also, he spreads out his panzers more and is more unpredictable. You went all in on the south in that game and that made things a lot simpler for me.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, MT is on a whole different level. Also, he spreads out his panzers more and is more unpredictable. You went all in on the south in that game and that made things a lot simpler for me.

3 divisions from center to south is not all south.

It was standard opening I have always used and never changed.

I went hard for Leningrad and you stopped that more to west then MT.

Mt's MO has never changed, its about the center and always has been. He basicly chops of the head, the south and north are side shows.

1. Good opening in south.
2. Pockets in center.
3. Pockets east of marshes.
4. Leningrad falls
5. Doom and dispair as Moscow falls.

I don't see much of a change in any of his games, same as mine.

My games I push in North and South, the center comes last if I have time.

MT pushes in center first, then south.

We both as everyone does put pressure on all 3, but the key push is basicly the same every single game.

If someone would simply read the AAR's and take away the center first as SHC, MT would be off his game. Don't think anyone has even tried yet. They keep tring to defend south and get bagged in the same way every game game after game.

I really don't see you being so ignorent.

[Michael T]

End Axis T3 (3rd July 1941) Clear.

Lots of action right across the front this turn. Robert is not a runner it would seem, he is standing toe to toe with the Wehrmacht.

In the North and Centre a pocket is formed around Vitebsk. PzGp’s 2 &3 swing thru from the south and PzGp 4 is diverted from Pskov to form the northern pincer. The pocket could not be sealed properly in the north so it will get broken. But the Reds are trapped.

On T2 in the South a pocket was formed (Orange area) but the Soviets attacked and broke it at two points, temporarily isolating some Panzers. But on the Axis T3 fresh reserves have arrived and restored the natural order of things by surrounding even more Soviets. The pocket around Zhitomer will be broken but the one around Vinnista might hold. Regardless the Reds are trapped.

[Michael T]

I am about half way thru my T4 but last turn Robert emailed me and suggested I should consider using Random Weather in future. Here is why I won't.

The best chance the Axis player has to put himself in to a winning position is to put as much damage on the Soviets in the summer of 1941 as he can. There is also the blizzard to consider. The best defence against the blizzard is to destroy as many Soviet units as possible prior to the blizzard. These points along with the fact that the game is in favour of the Soviets anyhow makes German play with Random Weather a non option IMO.

IMO Random Weather hands the Soviets a victory in a CG between two evenly matched players. There are two primary reasons for this that are directly related.

Firstly its simply the fact that mud can strike at any time in any weather zone and it goes without saying that mud conditions put the brakes on any offensive. Mud is simply too great a change from clear conditions. Its too black and white. So the Axis will lose a number of opportunities to inflict loss on the Soviets for any period of mud.

The second reason is by far the worse of the two cited but it also feeds in to the first reason. If the German player knows he has clear weather he can take more risks with his Mech Units as he can be confident that if his units get cut off he can rescue them. But if mud is a possibility the risk is that if his units get cut off they will most likely be eliminated. This is because the mud condition will make any kind of rescue mission unlikely to succeed. And due to the isolation rules his trapped units would most likely get eliminated in the Soviet turn. This places a psychological constraint on Axis play in summer 1941 that just serves to make it even harder to inflict serious damage on the Soviets.

This is why I simply refuse to play with Random Weather in WITE. IMHO it pushes the balance of the game too far in favour of the Soviets. Other people will disagree. Which is fine.

I am not against the idea of random weather perse as I use it in all of my board games. But the way it works in WITE in conjunction with the isolation rules make 1941 a very different game if Random Weather is on as opposed to not on. It just favours the Soviets too much for me. As such I refuse to use it when German. And when Soviet I let the German player make the choice. If the German player has a long term defensive strategy then maybe Random Weather is the way to go. But for me Barbarossa was all about trying for a knockout blow and Non Random suits this purpose best.

I think a fix would be to adjust the isolation rules for German units in 1941 ( maybe just half their CV or some such) so that getting stuck behind enemy lines in 1941 is not a death sentence if mud rolls along. It's a different matter for the Soviets as they surrendered in their droves in 1941. Another possibility would be introducing another condition (e.g. light mud) that would replace mud in normally clear months that is not so debilitating.

People will say they prefer the unpredictable nature of random weather which is fine. I actually agree. But consider once a mud condition occurs in a zone during summer the remaining summer turns in that zone are all predictable. They will be clear. The nature of Random Weather in WITE is just too much of a lever that can get pulled and really favour one side over the other. And considering the vast amount of time we put in to the game it seems silly to me that on the cast of one die a players fate can be sealed.

Anyway just my two cents. People will disagree, but I simply put this forward to explain why I will not use random weather as the German player in WITE current state.

[Peltonx]

The weather very heavly favors SHC with or without non random weather simply because they go 2nd. Later in war they can plan river crossings around mud ect.

Its a huge advantage late in war for SHC on or off.

I am playing Huge in my only random weather game and its just plain retarded to play random weather as GHC.

Looks like I will still get a draw. Probably should have been over in 41, but because of the weather the game will drag on until 2014 most likely or Huge agrees to a draw.

There is allot to the game in 1941, but 3x more to learn from 42-45. Amazing complex game that keeps on giving for sure.

I am guessing by looking at 2by3 weather vid that weather will be more complex also with witw and wite 2.

MT has a point that I agree with 100% in 1941 and into 42-45.

[Ketza]

I have 2 games ongoing now with random weather one as Axis and one as Soviet. I find it makes the game more interesting in general.

[janh]

I think that's fine Michael. If you play for winning, and play the offensive side, you can plan a lot better if your weather forecasts are "sort of perfect". Like you said, you can take risks if you know the mud turns under circumstances, in which without perfect weather knowledge you would have to behave much more conservative and more realistic. Some people play for a realistic experience, some for winning, which are both good motivations.

Hopefully the new weather model with WitW will introduce more "shades" of mud, winter etc. and also modify the isolation mechanics so that units can hold their own for longer. That would limit the effects of a single mud turn, and make random weather less of a deal breaker -- which it can be for both sides. Even for the Russian side in 41 mud can come at the wrong moments, but you are right in that the Germans are pretty much always on the bright side during that phase so it it hurts them more. But also delayed fort building due to mud, or reduced movement for the Red ants that have extremely poor mobility already, is a major disadvantage. Just that the Russians are so weak, that even without mud it seem not that much better. On the balance side, random hurts the Soviets later. So perhaps dislike of like come with aiming for the short or long games anyway.

[gingerbread]

In general, the player moving first in a turn does benefit from random weather since he knows what weather his opponent will have while the player moving second does not. Having uninterrupted clear is of course good when on the offensive.

If the active concept is that this is a game and nothing but, I see no reason for the Soviet player to accept any HR about para drops, in order to be able to penalize 'ludicrous' panzer raids.

And why is 'ludicrous runaways' applicable if it's a game and nothing but???

That said, I noticed you have developed a way to repair 3 times 6 rail hexes in the Baltic RZ (well done!) - is the next batch limited to 4 hexes due to the one hex (#3) outside Baltic or can #5 & #6 be repaired if they are in?

[swkuh]

Well done, Michael, and well explained. Helps us beginners play better, thanks.

Future weather play shown in 2x3 clip is intriguing.

[swkuh]

Historical reality is greatly desireable but should not be forced by "hard coded" conditions in the game's software (IMO.)

Negotiated house rules should help, but these are for opponents to determine. (BTW, could have a thread by those who know discussing these possibilities.)

In the end, its a game and its play is most rewarding (IMO) when outcomes are understandable through analysis.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
In general, the player moving first in a turn does benefit from random weather...

You are right with that. I-Go-U-Go provides sort of a built-in initiative, that's also is true with respect to weather. Perhaps one solution would have been giving the 2nd player ought a "free" weather preview. Unfortunately that won't change with WitW. Hopefully with a finer grain weather model, and perhaps weather forecasts, this will become less critical.

[Scook_99]

What I would like is a 3rd option: Random weather after the 1st 17 turns of clear. That might be asking too much, but I do agree with MT about the opening offensive in the game.

[Michael T]

Random weather after the 1st 17 turns of clear

I like that idea too.

[Michael T]

Another thing I do is that what ever HR or condition I employ I am always happy to play either side. I generally leave the choice of side to my opponent. Anyone here who thinks that my conditions are so horribly in favour of the Axis is perfectly free to challenge me to a game where I play Soviet.

[Flaviusx]

Michael, unless you start giving your opponents handicaps, you're going to rapidly run out of them. The only people you will be able to convince to play you under your preferred conditions as the Axis are unsuspecting marks not likely to give you a challenging game.

I really do not understand how you can derive any satisfaction from these lopsided games you play that hardly get past 1941. Not very sporting.

The fact that you are willing to play under the same conditions as the Soviets is quite immaterial. You might have to give your opponents a different handicap playing the Sovs.

[Michael T]

I have plenty of willing opponents. You need not concern yourself.

[Flaviusx]

The poor bastards.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Michael, unless you start giving your opponents handicaps, you're going to rapidly run out of them. The only people you will be able to convince to play you under your preferred conditions as the Axis are unsuspecting marks not likely to give you a challenging game.

I really do not understand how you can derive any satisfaction from these lopsided games you play that hardly get past 1941. Not very sporting.

The fact that you are willing to play under the same conditions as the Soviets is quite immaterial. You might have to give your opponents a different handicap playing the Sovs.

I have only played 1 ( am playing ) as SHC, but surviving 1941 vs MT looks easy really.

Its the same old cookie cutter MT over and over for the last 2 yrs. Kinda amazing that person after person falls for the same old BS over and over.

MT is getting boring really at this point.

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Michael, unless you start giving your opponents handicaps, you're going to rapidly run out of them. The only people you will be able to convince to play you under your preferred conditions as the Axis are unsuspecting marks not likely to give you a challenging game.

I really do not understand how you can derive any satisfaction from these lopsided games you play that hardly get past 1941. Not very sporting.

The fact that you are willing to play under the same conditions as the Soviets is quite immaterial. You might have to give your opponents a different handicap playing the Sovs.

I have only played 1 ( am playing ) as SHC, but surviving 1941 vs MT looks easy really.

Its the same old cookie cutter MT over and over for the last 2 yrs. Kinda amazing that person after person falls for the same old BS over and over.

MT is getting boring really at this point.

You're not fair, MT is impressive but not boring. I'm learning from each of his AAR.

Perhaps you should try MT as SHC.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Random weather after the 1st 17 turns of clear

I like that idea too.

Madness for a Russian to agree. Random weather benefits the player who knows what the weather will be in his opponents turn. That's Jerry.