Great game, but air war is still rubbish

[sandman2575]

The air combat aspect of Case Blue is really my only major gripe about the game. It unfortunately does detract from what would otherwise be a completely enjoyable experience.

I know Vic solved the problem of the Soviet Super-Air-Stacks which would intercept and tear Luftwaffe geschwader to shreds. I'm grateful for that.

However, the Red Army Air Force in this game might as well be the RAF. They are more or less toe-to-toe with the Luftwaffe, which is completely ahistorical at the time of Case Blue and Stalingrad.

In reality, the Soviet air force was a shambles for the first year and half of the German-Russian war, and only started to gain the upper hand on the Germans late into 1943 if not 1944.

It drives me crazy that one of the main advantages the German player has is all but neutralized in this game. Germany had complete air superiority at the start of Case Blue. This however is not at all modelled in the game. I constantly have losses of 15-20 Stukas / Ju-88s / He-111s in single sorties due to interceptions. Even if they are escorted, they still take non-trivial losses. I wind up nursing my Luftwaffe squadrons and really have to think carefully about whether it's worth the 'gamble' of using them in certain cases. This is pure nonsense.

I am not at all someone who thinks the German forces should be 'uber' and able to trample the Russians. I want historical balance and think Vic has done a fine job overall in achieving that. If anything, perhaps the Russian land forces could use a buff -- but of course, the player can set that himself in the pre-game settings by giving the Soviet AI combat bonuses.

The air war, however, remains a mess. The Red Army Air Force needs to be nerfed somehow. Maybe their morale or readiness should be lessened. I say this not because I am a 'Germany fanboy,' but because it's not historical for the German player to face a serious Russian air threat at the start of Case Blue.

[Vic]

@sandman,

One of the things the German player has to do is actively find enemy red fighter airbases and attack them with bombers (and fighter escort!). This is the way to stay on top for a long time. If you let your opponent organise and build up xp and readiness his larger numbers will end up working against you.

The red airforce also suffers quite a lot of command and control penalties (much more than the land forces) causing them to lose readiness regularly in the early months. However... things will start shifting as you approach the winter of 1942. This is intended and in line with the research I did for this title. The german airforce basically can only assure local air superiority around christmas time.

I am noting your feedback though. I think keeping in a low level of command&control penalty on red airforce for a longer time might be a good finetune.

Best,
Vic

[Santini]

Hey Vic, I think something that would also help would be a mission type for fighters, a "Fighter Sweep"

The idea being before you send in the bombers, you send in the fighters, and lure up what you can.

It didn't work well against england, but in the east and against france it was a very effective mission type

[Hugolin]

In the planes department:

1-How many planes make a stack value of 100?
2-Is there such a thing as plane overstacking?
3-How many planes can a city host? Is there a stacking limit?
4-Is it better to put them planes altogether, or to spread them?
5-Is there a way to see the 'airfield' value and damage, and does it have an incidence on the game? Is it abstracted in the structural level of a city?

Also good tip about bombing enemy bases... Thanks!

[Vic]

ORIGINAL: BrotherJayne

Hey Vic, I think something that would also help would be a mission type for fighters, a "Fighter Sweep"

The idea being before you send in the bombers, you send in the fighters, and lure up what you can.

It didn't work well against england, but in the east and against france it was a very effective mission type

Actually you can already do this if you use your fighters to attack enemy airfields or units or make them do recon missions. Especially recon missions close by your airfield will allow you to do several such missions in a turn.

best,
Vic

[Vic]

ORIGINAL: Hugolin

In the planes department:

1-How many planes make a stack value of 100?
2-Is there such a thing as plane overstacking?
3-How many planes can a city host? Is there a stacking limit?
4-Is it better to put them planes altogether, or to spread them?
5-Is there a way to see the 'airfield' value and damage, and does it have an incidence on the game? Is it abstracted in the structural level of a city?

Also good tip about bombing enemy bases... Thanks!

1. There is no stacking modifier for air to air combat. Basically it is assumed the actual battles are fought overal several hexes in the surroundings.
2. Yes but only based on their airfield. If you have to manu aircraft on an airfield you will get overstacking penalties when these aircraft are used in combat. A green block with white negative percentage will show up when this happens.
3. All airfields host max 100 air stacking points.
4. Spreading out is always better since it makes you less vulnerable to enemy attacks on your airfields.
5. Yes in the top of the screen (the picture of the landscape) you can see a bar that shows any dammage to a town/airfield. This dammage will cause readiness penalties for any aircraft stationed there.

best,
Vic

[Hugolin]

Thanks a bunch!
It's a game with many details, I'm slowly getting used to them.[:)]

[marcpennington]

One minor problem I have is how hard it is to track down where the opponent's air bases are to actually bomb them (or remember where they were from turn to turn). Obviously, one can use fighters to recon and track them down that way, but that can only go so far, given how few recon units there are. Maybe having a hex used as an air base default to a slightly higher recon level (just enough to show that air units are indeed there) might work, and would make sense intuitively as well as reflecting knowledge such as "the enemy was flying that direction when he looked ready to land..."

[Santini]

Ooo, showing the return base for interceptors would do it

[sandman2575]

Thanks for the tips, Vic -- I had forgotten you could strike enemy airfields (perhaps because it's sometimes hard to 'see' them as airfields when you regard them as towns), so that is my oversight. I'll try to make better use of this tactic.

I agree with map66's point that enemy airbases are a bit too hard to locate. I like Fog of War and in some ways would prefer FoW to be *stronger* for the ground aspect. But arguably the FoW for air units is currently too strong. I may be mistaken, but I get the sense that the AI frequently shuffles the locations of its air units from turn to turn -? This makes the difficulty worse if so.

Playing Germany, I miss the Recon squadrons available in the Fall Weiss BC: Warsaw to Paris campaign. Perhaps both sides, German and Soviet, should be given greater air recon capability in the form of dedicated (i.e. non-fighter) Recon squadrons. These could be very helpful in at least identifying where enemy airbases are -- I wouldn't want them overpowered to the point of providing highly accurate intel. on enemy force composition. But a somewhat greater capability to be able to find enemy air-bases might make a lot of sense.

[LiquidSky]

I find that the Germans can maintain air superiority until around late August/early September. If the Russians try to exert air control in the early game, just leave the German bombers at home, and fly 1-2 fighter squadrons at suspected airfields. This will chew up the Russian fighters faster then they chew up yours..especially with all the command and control penalties they will be suffering from.

Your stukas will always take a beating, as the few you lose to AA every turn or so cannot be made up by replacements.

A smart Russian will pull his fighters back and let them build up some strength. As well, they will get away from the command penalties of the early game. This means that you will probably not be able to force him away. However, by now you should have a healthy prestige, and can play the fighter card a fair number of times. This should buy you another month or two of air superiority.
Your stuka's by now will probably all fit into a single airfield.

It is now Novemember. The Russians will not be able to bomb you without suffering big bomber casualties, but neither can you bomb him. There will be areas of the front line that you may be able to bomb that aren't covered by fighters, but by and large, your airforce will be grounded, and your fighters only on intercept.

Basically, you will lose control of the air as the Germans. It is only a matter of time. You just have to make the most of it.

[sandman2575]

Appreciate the tips, LiquidSky --

I know a balance has to be struck between 'historical realism' and 'playability' -- and for the Russian player, having an ineffective air force is obviously not fun and must detract from the enjoyment of the game at some level (since the point of the game is ultimately to have fun!) -- still, I would argue the Soviet air force should be slightly less effective than it currently is, and for slightly longer.

Just playing around a bit with the 'hit the Russian air force on the ground tactic' -- this is a lot easier said than done. In order to even ID an enemy airbase, you have to fly several recon missions - probably 3 - over the same town -- thereby increasing the REC. level enough to reveal the enemy air unit. By that point, though, your fighters are out of Action Points, and can't be used to escort the bombers, who will get hurt going in alone. Sure, you can just 'wing it' and launch strikes over suspected enemy air bases in the hopes that you get lucky and it's actually there. But 'flying blind' in this way strikes me as game-y and non-tactical.

Another argument, I think, for including some purely Recon air units --

[LiquidSky]

Actually, I think that casualties for all combat is probably too high. One way to mitigate it would be to increase the amount of replacements you get for playing a card. Preferably I would like to see the casualties from combat halved.

[BK6583]

Well speaking of the air game, I have a question and complaint rolled into one. It seems that the Russian AI can tell if a German air attack has fighters or not. I've run several unscientific tests where I sent in several KGs with a 60 strength JG. No Russian fighters intercepted. I restarted the turn and sent in the KGs w/o fighters - Russian fighters intercepted. I restarted and ran the air attacks with fighters and no Russian fighters intercepted. Restared and went w/o fighters - Russian fighters intercepted. Am I just imagining things here and all of this was strictly luck of the draw? This is one of two aspects of the air game I find frustrating. First, I conduct several air attacks as the Germans and use up my fighters - no Russian fighters ever showed up. Ok - everything's clear I think to myself - then I try an air attack in the same 'sector' w/o fighters (since they're used up) and blam! Russian fighters now show up. Second, I have had some success in attacking Russian airfields, but again, it's a krap shoot and very frustrating to have to use up my big JGs for this - the smaller fighter units don't fare well if they do find a Russian fighter 'nest'. Would certainly like to see this reworked.

[Hugolin]

From what I understand, interception is automatic. If your own (German) fighters are at 100% readiness, they could themselves intercept the Russian planes during the Russian turn.

Because it's automatic, I figure it engages only when it has a decent chance to do some damages...

[Vic]

There is a random element involved with interception. The AI does not cheat.

@Bk, make sure you have the latest version of the game to avoid the mega stack intercept issue.

best regards,
Vic