Noob question on Notional Units (RaW)

[Extraneous]

Original: wif_o_matic
Question relating to the original topic:

Situation:
- France is vichied and controls N Africa including Morocco
- CW DoWs Vichy, calls a combined and invades Casablanca with a div
- there is no supply line from Casablanca to a city in Metro Vichy
- there is a Moroccan territorial in Rabat

I calculate the notional as +1 (notional), +1 (city), -1 (surprise), -1 (no basic supply line of any length to Vichy)
For a total of 0, for an automatic successful invasion.

- however a friend argued that the hex was Moroccan and was in supply from Rabat which would equal a notional of 1.

What say you people? Is Casablanca a Vichy hex or is it a Moroccan minor hex? And therefore is it a notional 0 or 1?

Cheers,
Ben

1) Vichy France controls Morocco.
2) The CW has DoW'ed Vichy France.
3) There is no supply line to Morocco from metropolitan Vichy France.
4) There is a Vichy French territorial in Rabat.

Are you starting to see a pattern here yet?

2.5 Control
Control of a hex changes when:
• an enemy land unit (except for partisans ~ see 13.1, and supply units ~ see 22.4.10) enters it (the major power entering with the most factors if more than one); or
• an island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered (see 13.7.1); or
• France is declared Vichy (see 17.); or
• it is a communist Chinese-controlled city entered by a nationalist Chinese land unit or vice versa; or
• during the liberation step you return control to the original owner (see 13.7.5, reversion).

Each hex defends against an invasion with a notional land unit, in addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit is the same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit in the hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units, it is the same nationality as the major power or minor country that controls the hex.

Note major power takes precedence since it clearly states or minor country.

There are no units in the hex so there is no choice to be made. Vichy France controls the hex (see 17.2 Determine control) not Morocco.


Here is how I see it:

On a previous impulse the CW DoW's Vichy France and invades French Indo-china.

Germany moves an air unit to Casablanca.

The CW invades Casablanca with a division.

The Axis player now has a choice to have the notational unit be Vichy French or German.

Vichy French units are subject to defection so instead Germany is chosen to be the nationality of the notational unit.

If the Vichy French territorial in Rabat is from Morroco it would be able to use Rabat as a supply source. If it is not from Morocco it could not.


Or, if you would, please explain to me when a notational unit outside of Vichy France is Vichy French.

Remember when metropolitan Vichy France is invaded Vichy units no longer check for defection as per rule 17.5 Combat with Vichy.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

As usual you quote several rules (other than 17.2) that have nothing to do with what the original question is asking and then draw an incorrect conclusion.

The pertinent rules are:

From 2.5: "Note that even though major powers may control minor countries (see 9.8 & 13.7.1), it is the minors themselves that control hexes in that minor."

From 17.2: "Otherwise, it remains controlled by Vichy France:" Meaning it (Morocco) is a minor aligned to Vichy because of the word "remains" (Morocco was a minor aligned to France, prior to Vichyfication.)

From11.14 - the rule on Notionals quoted above.

And this is even stated in 17.1 of RAW too:

All other French territories and minor countries may be aligned with
either Vichy France or Free France.

So the hex is controlled by an aligned Morocco, Morocco is a minor country, therefore the notional unit is a Moroccan unit and is in supply if it can trace to a Moroccan city. It doesn't have to trace to Vichy France.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Or, if you would, please explain to me when a notational unit outside of Vichy France is Vichy French.

That's easy. If it is in a Vichy French hex, not part of a Vichy France aligned minor country. That could be for example a minor conquered by (Vichy) France or a Vichy French controlled territory.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Or, if you would, please explain to me when a notational unit outside of Vichy France is Vichy French.

That's easy. If it is in a Vichy French hex, not part of a Vichy France aligned minor country. That could be for example a minor conquered by (Vichy) France or a Vichy French controlled territory.

If this all makes your head spin, then won't you be glad that MWIF will figure it all out for you?[:D]

[Extraneous]

Very good except...

17.1 Creation
Occupied France is a conquered major power home country controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government. Control of occupied France is as per 13.7.1 Conquest except that all hexes controlled by French units become controlled by the Axis major power installing the Vichy government.

Complete conquest

Each hex it controls in a territory or home country controlled by another major power or minor country reverts to the control of that other major power or minor country.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Jimm

Can you EVER not have the last word, Extraneous?

[:D] Just for you Jimm. [:D]

Look no last word or post at all.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Or, if you would, please explain to me when a notational unit outside of Vichy France is Vichy French.

That's easy. If it is in a Vichy French hex, not part of a Vichy France aligned minor country. That could be for example a minor conquered by (Vichy) France or a Vichy French controlled territory.

If this all makes your head spin, then won't you be glad that MWIF will figure it all out for you?[:D]

I think I need to test this one. See if MWIF has done it right. I bet that Steve has coded it as it should, giving the Moroccan notional in supply even it can't trace to Vichy. If not, I've got a problem now, Steve...

[Extraneous]

The difference is between minor countries (which must trace supply to a primary source) and true minor countries (which can trace supply to its capitol).

True minor countries must be DoW'ed independently not brought into the war because the home country is DoW'ed.

19. Minor countries
The world is divided into several types of political entity. At the top of the heap is the major power—independent and powerful. Then there are minor countries—still independent but not in the same military league as a major power. In World in Flames, every major power home country, and every minor country, has a capital city.

In previous years, most major powers valued their importance by how many other territories, sometimes called “colonies”, they controlled. We don’t have a special status for colonies—they are either a minor country aligned with, or conquered by, a major power or simply hexes controlled by a major power.

We represent the independence of true minor countries by making them neutral until they enter the war. They enter the war when someone declares war on them or when they otherwise align themselves with a major power. In either case, for game purposes you will select a major power to run their affairs.

The scenario information (see 24. Scenario Information) will list which minor countries start the game conquered or aligned.

24. Scenario Information
Campaign rules
“War status” tells you who is at war with whom. All minor countries in the game, not “controlled” by a major power, are neutral.

“Control” shows who owns what at the start of the campaign.

24.2.1 Barbarossa ~ “One Kick...”: May/Jun 1941~Jan/Feb 1942
War status: Germany must declare war on the USSR on its first impulse.

24.2.2 Guadalcanal ~ The tide turns: May/Jun 1942 ~ Jan/Feb 1943
War status: The Commonwealth, Free France and the USA are at war with Japan.

24.3.1 Fascist Tide ~ The war in Europe: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ May/Jun 1945
War status: The USSR and Germany have a neutrality pact made in 1939. See 9.3 for first impulse compulsory declarations of war. The US is at war with Japan from the first Axis impulse of Nov/Dec 1941.

24.3.2 Day of Infamy ~ The War in the Pacific: Nov/Dec 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: China and Japan are at war. The USSR and Japan have a neutrality pact made in 1941. The Commonwealth, the USSR and Free France are active major powers.

24.4.1 Missed the Bus ~ The end of the beginning: Jul/Aug 1940 - Jul/Aug 1945
War status: Vichy France, the USSR and the USA are neutral. China and Japan are at war with each other. The Commonwealth and France are at war with Germany and Italy.

24.4.2 Lebensraum ~ Germany moves east: May/Jun 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: The USA and the USSR are neutral. China and Japan are at war with each other. The Commonwealth and Free France are at war with Germany and Italy. Vichy France is at war with (but not hostile to) the Commonwealth and Free France.

24.4.3 Waking giant ~ The USA enters the war: Nov/Dec 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: The USA is neutral. China and Japan are at war with each other. The Commonwealth, France and the USSR are at war with Germany and Italy. Vichy France is at war with (but not hostile to) the Commonwealth and Free France.

24.4.4 Brute force ~ The Allies hit back: May/Jun 1942~Jul/Aug 1945
War status: The Commonwealth, the USA, China and Free France are at war with Japan. The Commonwealth, the USA, the USSR and Free France are at war with Germany and Italy. Vichy France is at war with (but not hostile to) the Commonwealth and Free France.

24.4.5 Darkness before the dawn ~ The beginning of the end: Jul/Aug 1943 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: The Commonwealth, the USA, China and Free France are at war with Japan. The Commonwealth, the USA, the USSR and Free France are at war with Germany and Italy.

24.4.6 Decline and fall ~ The Allied ascendancy: May/Jun 1944 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: The Commonwealth, Free France, the USA and China are at war with Japan. The Commonwealth, the USA, the USSR and Free France are at war with Germany and Italy.

24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: All major powers are neutral except China and Japan who are at war with each other. See 9.3 for first impulse compulsory declarations of war.

29. 1936~1945 World Order of battle © 2003 Australian Design Group Countersheets 1-6 & 24 (WiF Classic)
Major Power & minor country partisans
Minor Countries
Afghanistan, Argentina, Austria *, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, C. America, Chile, Colombia, Czechoslovakia *, Denmark, Equador, Ethiopia *, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Iraq, Ireland, Mexico, Netherlands, Norway, Paraguay, Persia, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Rumania, Siam, Spain (Nat), Spain (Rep) *, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Uruguay, Venezuela, and Yugoslavia.

If the Vichy French territorial in Rabat is from Morroco it would be able to use Rabat as a supply source. If it is not from Morocco it could not.

[:-] I was wrong the Vichy French territorial in Rabat is out of supply. [:-]

[michaelbaldur]

The difference is between minor countries (which must trace supply to a primary source) and true minor countries (which can trace supply to its capitol).

True minor countries must be DoW'ed independently not brought into the war because the home country is DoW'ed.

there is only on kind ofminor, no matter how it is brought into the war ...

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
[:-] I was wrong

Yes, and remain so.

Here's what matters for the original query:

Is the hex in a minor country? - yes
Is the minor country aligned or conquered? - aligned
Is the hex empty? -yes
What nationality is the hex? - Moroccan
Can the hex trace a supply path of any distance? -yes

BTW, Territorials are not Vichy French units, they are units of minor countries that are aligned to Vichy.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
[:-] I was wrong

Yes, and remain so.

Here's what matters for the original query:

Is the hex in a minor country? - yes
Is the minor country aligned or conquered? - aligned
Is the hex empty? -yes
What nationality is the hex? - Moroccan
Can the hex trace a supply path of any distance? -yes

BTW, Territorials are not Vichy French units, they are units of minor countries that are aligned to Vichy.

if the minor is conquered then the hex have the nationality of the conqueror

[Extraneous]

Then expain to me how this works.

17.5 Combat with Vichy
If Vichy French land units are involved in a land combat, or are overrun, solely by units controlled by an Allied major power they are not hostile to, they may defect before combat.

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.

And explain the definition of minor countries.

19. Minor countries
We represent the independence of true minor countries by making them neutral until they enter the war. They enter the war when someone declares war on them or when they otherwise align themselves with a major power. In either case, for game purposes you will select a major power to run their affairs.

The scenario information (see 24. Scenario Information) will list which minor countries start the game conquered or aligned.

1) Morroco is not listed in 24. Scenario Information as one of the minor countries.

2) No one declared war on Morocco they declared war on Vichy France.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Then expain to me how this works.

17.5 Combat with Vichy
If Vichy French land units are involved in a land combat, or are overrun, solely by units controlled by an Allied major power they are not hostile to, they may defect before combat.

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.

And explain the definition of minor countries.

19. Minor countries
We represent the independence of true minor countries by making them neutral until they enter the war. They enter the war when someone declares war on them or when they otherwise align themselves with a major power. In either case, for game purposes you will select a major power to run their affairs.

The scenario information (see 24. Scenario Information) will list which minor countries start the game conquered or aligned.

1) Morroco is not listed in 24. Scenario Information as one of the minor countries.

2) No one declared war on Morocco they declared war on Vichy France.

1: Morocco is a minor that start the game aligned to France

2:

9.2 How to declare war All major powers on this side announce which major powers on the other side they are declaring war on this impulse. They then all announce which neutral minor countries they are declaring war on this impulse. You can’t declare war on
• any major powers or minor countries on your side; or
• a country you are already at war with; or
• a minor country that is already controlled by a major power on the other side. However, a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country aligned to that major power.

[Extraneous]

I would normally ask for someone to check with the Yahoo group. But they use something called "LOC Vichy" I not sure if their answer would be appropriate. The links don't work to download a copy of "LOC Vichy".

I've checked 2013 and from the bottom up am up to 2007 have checked for information there.

I have found that the Yahoo group does differentiate between joined an aligned minors.

[paulderynck]

LOC Vichy stands for Line of Communications Vichy. Line of Communications was an independent (from ADG) publication that offered optional rules for WiF. Many players liked the idea of LOC Vichy because they felt there was insufficient variability/historicity with RAW Vichy. Many players do use it. It is possibly the most popular of all independent optional rules for WiF. I know there are good links out there to download the latest LOC Vichy rules, but, sorry, I have none on file.

Anyway, LOC Vichy is not a RAW option nor an MWiF option, so for this discussion, quoting it would only serve to provide confusion. At best it would be considered a "house rule", albeit a very popular one.

[Extraneous]

World in Flames Yahoo group RAW Vichy and TERR #105820 January 2010 sites this rule.

17.3 Units

French units

All units controlled by France that are still in Vichy territory are now controlled by Vichy. All other French controlled units are Free French.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

World in Flames Yahoo group RAW Vichy and TERR #105820 January 2010 sites this rule.

17.3 Units

French units

All units controlled by France that are still in Vichy territory are now controlled by Vichy. All other French controlled units are Free French.

How is that pertinent?

Controlling units doesn't change their nationality. FREX German-controlled Rumanians don't become German units. The last part of that rule was lazily written and should have said: "All other French controlled units are controlled by Free France."

In both cases, some of the units could have originally been French units, and so indeed be either Vichy French or Free French, but if they were minor country units then they keep their nationality and are controlled units.

[Extraneous]

All units controlled by France that are still in Vichy territory are now controlled by Vichy.


That would include notational units.

[paulderynck]

See post #38.

[Extraneous]

paulderynck you are part of the Yahoo group and made some very good posts there. So go ahead and ask them about this scenario.

Why haven't one of you done so already?


Because of your view on minor countries controlled by Vichy France You cannot explain...

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.

Using your view this rule can NEVER be put into effect.