Surrender / disband issue

[adek670]

What are the conditions by which units surrender are destroyed or disband . I'm playing the losheim gap scenario and am faced with several units that have less than 10 personal facing overwhelming attack which refuse to budge.

Appreciate the us army was a hardy lot but this seems odd

Can anyone confirm if this is an issue experienced regularly

I am playing with the latest beta patch

Happy to send a save

Will up a few screen shots when I work out how

Ade

[Phoenix100]

What build you on, Reaper? This has been subject to some tweaks/fixes in the course of patch 4. I noticed pre-patch 4 the same prob (though you can recall that it's only yout intel that says it's only 10 men [that said, it's usually an overestinate, not the other way round]) but it's not raised its head again for me during the latest build. They do hold out sometimes, but max would be an hour or so.

You dropping arty on them? That always helps. Back off your attackers and pound them a bit. I'm sure you're already doing this....

[dazkaz15]

Here you go.
I still think the willingness to surrender of troops may be a little out, so am very interested in your situation.
That said there are many, many variables that need to be taken into consideration, like their stubbornness, the condition of the troops attacking, the deployment of them, ammunition state of the troops attacking, possible weather, and visibility, type of terrain, luck, probably half a dozen more things that have been built into the game that I'm not aware of as well.
I think one of the biggest short comings in this regard is when a small unit is completely overrun and encircled. In most cases they still seem to fight to the death.
I think what we have at the moment is pretty good though for such a hard thing to accurately implement in game, to be honest.


Here is how to post images:

[adek670]

Can you pick out the enemy recce unit - pretty much beat but hanging in there.

Ade

[Arjuna]

Well its options are pretty limited aren't they since they are effectively surrounded. Obviously morale hasn't broken yet sufficient for them to surrender. They are not alone though. They have a powerful armoured unit close by and more a little further away.

[adek670]

Arjuna,

I have been pushing this one back since the bridge - this is slightly later than when it was much more south eastern edge of the village. The two Airborne units have been firing at it - and it has been bombarded constantly.

I have several other units around the map that are showing this kind of resolve.

Is it possible to send you a save.

Also, I am seeing mortar unit lead on attacks - is this normal too?

Ade

[Arjuna]

send your save(s) to support [at] panthergames [dot] com

[dazkaz15]

My personal opinion on this one, after looking at your image sides more with Dave (Arjuna).

They are not completely surrounded, and still have room, and even friendly held territory to fall back to.
They also have plenty of covered terrain, with all the buildings that are on their line of retreat from the bridge to take cover behind/in.
If they where in the open it would be more a problem I think.

My issue with this has been when a single unit is attacked from front and back simultaneously, and sometimes even from the flanks as well, but in most cases decide to fight to the death, or they somehow miraculously seam to slip out the side of the envelopment.
Once again though its a very hard thing to get right as different units would behave differently in a situation like that in real life.

Is a units willingness to surrender based on its Stubbornness trait, or is it not modelled like that in the game, and its other factors that determine if a unit will surrender or not?

[Arjuna]

Yes it's stubbornness value plays a big part.

[Phoenix100]

The mortar unit leading. That, on the other hand, is something I'm sure Dave would be interested in, if you are sending him saves. Yes, still happens, though it's many moons ago since we had this one out and had it fixed. It certainly happens much less than it used to, but you're right, you do see it every now and then. Mortar units and AT units (not HQs, anymore). Need to be clear though - are they leading attacks, or the march up to the FUP? I only see the latter. They lead on the way in to the FUP, not during the actual attack. I think, in the case of the AT units, that this is because they have wheels. It's only an issue if they get ambushed before the FUP. I haven't seen any actual attacks (the attack phase of the attack) being led by such units and I'm sure if you have saves showing that, Reaper, then Dave would want.

[adek670]

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for this - maybe its the move up to the FUP i'm seeing - I don't always set a FUP for my attacks - especially when I don't want to mandate a fixed location - could this be causing the mortars to move early - I would have thought that even a move to the FUP would have been lead by DBE units rather the indirect fire units - does it matter which type of route you use - i.e if I select safest does that ensure that my softer units hold back?

Have pinged over a save in any case.

Regards,

Ade

[Phoenix100]

Mmm. I just remembered that I have actually seen an AT unit leading an attack from the FUP. And mentioned it in a post - last post on page, here - tm.asp?m=3295741&mpage=1&key=

That was 2 builds ago, but there have been no fixes since then. I think you're right Reaper - it does happen still.

[adek670]

happening again here:

[dazkaz15]

Wow yeah, that don't seem right [X(]

How long has it been holding out for?

Edit: I see your units are stationary. Did it just wander into your position during the night?

[adek670]

Its the original unit (one of two) that start the scenario in Roth. Been fighting it since the start of the scenario - A whole Bn reinforced with Stugs.

I see the stubbornness attribute is shakey - So im guessing that it should have folded sometime during the day.

Ade

[adek670]

and another - is this really working as designed?

Ade

[adek670]

Quick screenshot of an assaulting mortar unit - still occurring.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Reaper

Quick screenshot of an assaulting mortar unit - still occurring.

That mortar has not actually got an assault task, it has a defend task. Why it decided to move to there to defend is a mystery. Did you set a FUP for this attack order?

[Arjuna]

I have had a look at the save and it was part of the assault but has dropped off to provide onCallSpt. That's what is supposed to happen. however, I cannot tell how it got there in front. I need a save taken earlier on.

[adek670]

Hi Arjuna,

Am re-running to see if I can replicate this attack - I saved the game after the orders were given - so this may provide the same outcome.

Were you also able to look into the US recce units that refuse to move near roth - played this through last evening (till the early hours) and no matter how much arty, direct fire and surrounding of my units - I couldn't reduce this units further. The issue with these type of units is the game calculates movement based upon them. I have an entire regiment not pass through on a move order due to one apv and 2 men - slightly beyond realism if you ask me - Also it was still conducting attacks - where was it gaining supply from ?

Ade