Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements

[Helpless]

There is a lot of cases when we have to rely on swapping

Don't know what "rely" means here, but swapping is "emergency" procedure used to kick in after the upgrade and replacement.

So far I see nothing wrong with the code.

[morvael]

Examples based on latest version:
37mm Anti-tank Guns in 41 Panzer Division, 41 Elite Motorized Regiment, 41 SS Motorized Division (-), 41b SS Motorized Division, 41 Motorized Division, 41 Motorized Brigade, 41 Mountain Division, 41 Security Division, 41 SS Infantry Division, 41 AC Sturm Division, 41c Infantry Division, 41 Flieger Division, 41 Airlanding Division, 41 Jager Division will rely on swap
Panzerjager I in 41 SS Motorized Division, 41 Motorized Brigade will rely on swap
50mm Anti-tank Gun, 41 Jager Division in 41 Airlanding Division will rely on swap
Motorized Rifle Squad in 41 SS Motorized Brigade
Rifle Squad and 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle in 41 Fortified Zone will rely on swap
Rifle Squad, Pioneer Squad, 50mm Anti-tank Gun, Marder II, sIG33 in 42 SS Cavalry Division will rely on swap

This is very common, so it should work as smooth as upgrade procedure, not as an emergency. Swap is required every time where the element is no longer available to be built when given TOE is active (or ceases to be available during TOE active life).

Just look at my TOE Details report and look for items marked with "#-+". Will soon upload files based on latest beta.

[morvael]

Grep'ing all my report files these are instances of various elements that will depend on the swap procedure to let their parent TOE/unit to get some fresh meat:

9 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
12 76mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
6 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
12 76mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
36 7.62mm Machine Gun (Machinegun) #-+
30 20mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) #-+
4 45mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
12 76mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
8 45mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
16 76mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
44 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
16 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
71 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
63 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
57 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
25 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
42 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
12 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
42 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
66 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
66 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
18 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
66 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
6 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
29 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
16 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
216 Motorized Rifle Squad (Motor-Inf Squad) #-+
15 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
36 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
3 SdKfz-6/2 SP Flak #-+
4 SdKfz-222 Armored Car #-+
57 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) #-+
27 Rifle Squad #-+
9 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) #-+
12 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
33 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
29 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
16 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
27 Rifle Squad #-+
30 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
25 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 Marder II (SdKfz-132) (Lt Tank Destroyer) #-+
7 sIG33 (SP Inf-Gun) ##-+
3 Motorized Rifle Squad (+) (Motor-Inf Squad) #-+
4 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
34 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
18 SdKfz-6/2 SP Flak #-+
18 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
21 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
25 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
29 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
20 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
6 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
292 Rifle Squad #-+
6 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
12 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
12 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
51 Panzer IIIm (Medium Tank) #-+
12 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
51 Panzer IIIm (Medium Tank) #-+
18 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car #-+
65 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
8 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
27 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
74 Panzer IIIm (Medium Tank) ##-+
4 SdKfz-222 Armored Car #-+
18 SdKfz-6/2 SP Flak ##-+
24 SdKfz-222 Armored Car #-+
88 Panzer IIIm (Medium Tank) ##-+
21 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
27 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car #-+
12 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
12 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
30 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
9 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
6 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
45 Tiger (Heavy Tank) #-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) #-+
9 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
6 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
29 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
3 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
29 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
3 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
29 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
3 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
6 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
15 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
9 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) #-+
9 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
16 Panzer IIL Lynx (Light Tank) #-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) #-+
18 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak #-+
4 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
29 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
3 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) #-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
54 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) #-+
3 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
18 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car #-+
6 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
14 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car #-+
14 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
39 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
8 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak #-+
15 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car #-+
18 Wespe (SP Artillery) ##-+
12 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
3 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak ##-+
18 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak #-+
6 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak ##-+
13 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) ##-+
6 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak ##-+
13 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
33 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak ##-+
9 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak ##-+
8 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) ##-+
13 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
18 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak ##-+
4 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak ##-+
16 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) ##-+
5 Panzer IIIg (Medium Tank) ##-+
36 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
27 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
27 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
6 sIG33 (SP Inf-Gun) #-+
2 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
36 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
27 Rifle Squad #-+
3 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
3 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
18 Panzer IVc (CS Tank) ##-+
8 Rifle Squad #-+
3 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
3 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) #-+
18 280/320mm Nebelwerfer (Rocket) #-+
2 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
9 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
9 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
18 Marder II (SdKfz-131) (Lt Tank Destroyer) #-+
9 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
9 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
12 StuIG33B (Hvy Assault Gun) #-+
36 280/320mm Nebelwerfer (Rocket) #-+
8 Maultier (Rocket) #-+
6 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
16 Maultier (Rocket) #-+
6 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 280/320mm Nebelwerfer (Rocket) #-+
8 Maultier (Rocket) #-+
9 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
16 Maultier (Rocket) #-+
18 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
3 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
20 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
27 Rifle Squad #-+
4 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
195 Rifle Squad #-+
20 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
180 Rifle Squad #-+
20 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
156 Rifle Squad #-+
16 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
4 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
27 Rifle Squad #-+
162 Rifle Squad #-+
4 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
4 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
345 Rifle Squad #-+
10 Zrinyi II (Assault Gun) #-+
120 Rifle Squad #-+
27 Turan-II (Medium Tank) #-+
345 Rifle Squad #-+
18 Turan-II (Medium Tank) #-+
30 Zrinyi II (Assault Gun) ##-+
32 Zrinyi II (Assault Gun) #-+
8 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
46 CV-33 (Light Tank) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
46 CV-33 (Light Tank) #-+
8 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
8 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) ##-+
36 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
4 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
16 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
8 75mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
48 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) ##-+
4 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
8 90mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Medium Flak) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
12 90mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Medium Flak) #-+
12 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) ##-+
12 75mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Medium Flak) #-+
12 CV-33 Flame Tank #-+
12 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
12 75mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Medium Flak) #-+
9 149mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
14 OA vz.30 Armored Car #-+
12 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
3 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
18 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
168 Motor Squad (Motor-Inf Squad) #-+
21 Rifle Squad #-+
6 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
12 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
72 7.92mm Machine Gun (Machinegun) #-+
24 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
30 7.92mm Machine Gun (Machinegun) #-+
12 37mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Light Flak) #-+
12 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
16 37mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Light Flak) #-+
16 T-38 M1937 (DD Tank) ##-+
32 BT-7 M1937 (Cavalry Tank) ##-+
20 T-26 M1937 (Light Tank) ##-+
16 T-38 M1937 (DD Tank) ##-+
36 Sapper Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
5 BA-10 Armored Car #-+
17 BA-10 Armored Car #-+
60 T-26 M1937 (Light Tank) ##-+
10 BA-10 Armored Car #-+
8 BA-10 Armored Car ##-+
12 Sapper Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
30 BA-10 Armored Car ##-+
7 BA-20 Armored Car #-+
7 BA-20 Armored Car #-+
36 Sapper Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
108 Sapper Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
15 BA-10 Armored Car ##-+
27 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
27 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
7 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
3 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
7 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+
48 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+
16 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+
48 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+
16 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
4 BA-10 Armored Car #-+
7 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+

edit: ops, the code tag didn't work properly.

[Denniss]

The obvious code problem is that swapping needs something in the pool to swap to, otherwise it doesn't work. German squad upgrades fail because they have to rely on swaps but can't trigger production itself. Even on TOE upgrades these squads are usually not upgraded. So either the swap or TOE upgrade functions should be improved to trigger arm-based production if sufficient manpower/arm points available after sending the old stuff to pool).


As I suggested in one of the other threads, a way to improve this data-wise would be to install upgrade paths and internal exports (to upgrade old squads to the follow-on type). A similar internal export could also be used to convert the german MG 34 machine gun squads to MG 42 type, otherwise you'll typically have multiple thousand armament points lying dead in pool. The romanian inf squad change in 1942 should be a priority target as they usualy can't effort the reduction from 17 to 10 men within time so they still have high casualities despite having a lower-men squad type available (but almost no arm production to cover this).

To be fair, this should be enabled for both sides, the last time I tested it worked for all Axis but not for Soviet.

[rmonical]

As I can see 39'Motorized Rifle has no upgrade set in your file. Upgrade routine will never trigger for them.

I went back to the Jan 2012 files. It is the same. The following '39 types overlap with but do not upgrade to their corresponding '43 types: 81, 84, 94. Rifle, pioneer and motorized rifle squads.

It is not a coincidence that two of these are the types are causing problems for Pelton and DV. The pioneer squad has not emerged as an issue.

[rmonical]

Don't know what "rely" means here, but swapping is "emergency" procedure used to kick in after the upgrade and replacement.

So far I see nothing wrong with the code.

Looks like a disconnect between the scenario designers and the code. Other than my suggestions in the armaments thread, is there anything to help this situation?

In a perfect world, the replacement procedure would allow the two types to co-exist in the same unit as they do when an upgraded regiment recombines with its other regiments. The old type just gradually ages out. This appears to be what happens with the various medium tank types. Less ideal than for squads which would generally upgrade (swap) all at once, but the upgrade (swap) process in WITE is artificially difficult and expensive.

Alternatively, making it easier for the swap to occur would be very helpful. Currently, the campaign games are all broken once they hit Jan 44 because of this disconnect between the scenario design and the code.

[rmonical]

It would probably also be very helpful to the games caught in this situation to document the factors impacting the probability of the swap occurring. The effected players can break down into regiments and send regiments to try to maximize their chances of getting the swap.

Again, a potential partial fix would be allow the swaps to occur for refit units before replacements are allocated to non-refit units.

[morvael]

Tanks work because their production is not on demand so the new ones build whether there is someone to use them or not, thus enabling units to swap at later date.

[morvael]

Could this be sorted in a way that would require least work on 2by3 part in the code? Because alternative is unlikely.
1) Verify why Pavel says his version has upgrade path, and ours does not.
2) Verify if all scenarios have latest generic ground elements and TOEs imported.
3) Verify if other squad elements require adding upgrade paths.
4) Verify if some TOEs could use better types of those upgradable elements.
5) introduce more TOEs for main units (inf div) to better guide the engine on the squad upgrade path.
6) Run tests with this new model.
7) A tiny bit of code modification could help - make squad type elements scrappable as soon as they become obsolete (and maybe scrap them more aggressively), to regain invested ARM quicker.

Can we do it?

[rmonical]

Could this be sorted in a way that would require least work on 2by3 part in the code? Because alternative is unlikely.

Most excellent suggestion. Because of the campaign games that are in flight, I lean toward a software solution that addresses or minimizes the impact. Fixing scenario files does not help the folks already deep into a campaign game.

The swap process seems to recognize that the obsolete 94 (MR Squad) needs to be replaced by the current type 96 squad, but I do not know how it knows that. It looks to me like, once a new type is added to a unit that has the obsolete types, the engine handles the results just fine but I have not run it over a few turns. Recall that I get both types in a division by combining an upgraded regiment with its un-upgraded brethren.

Since the code recognizes the link between the 94-96 types, it seems to me that the overall least pain path is to allow it to add 96 types to a unit that already has 94 types. It could either do this when the 94 types go obsolete (1/44) or when the 96 types come available (1/43).

In the example from my test discussed above, a regiment was upgraded then combined with the base division on T-13. On T-14, the division was brought up to strength with new style squads. The image shows both squad types peacably coexisting. It seems pretty painless from the point the first new style squad gets into the division with obsolete squads but requires more testing. Maybe tomorrow.

[Denniss]

I assume Pavel checked the WitW files, there is an upgrade path from 94 to 96 (and also for the german rifle squads 81->82). Or he has an updated data set that's not yet released for WitE.

[Helpless]

Or he has an updated data set that's not yet released for WitE.

Well, it is other way around. I have too old files. Apparently Jim removed the upgrade in order to slowdown the conversion. So there is no disconnects between code and data, as it really slows it down

[rmonical]

So there is no disconnects between code and data, as it really slows it down

[:D][:D][:D]

[rmonical]

So it sounds like this is not a problem for WITW as the slow upgrades can be addressed in scenario design. The WITE scenarios can be "fixed" by restoring the upgrade path.

The problem then goes back to all the armaments points "locked" in the pool by "upgrading" some 35,000 rifle squads of various flavors in 1943.

I really like the idea of both squad types coexisting and letting attrition manage the slow transition. As a practical matter, when the Panzerfausts first come, they will be distributed evenly across the divisions. Some squads get a Panzerfaust, others get the second SMG. None are at full strength. Almost no squads will ever be TOE. Almost exactly analogous to the way new AFVs models transition in the divisions.

[rmonical]

Now, for the campaign games that are "in flight" there is still the question on how to help them get through this. My suggestion was to work on upgrading one regiment per division and letting coexistence manage the problem. I still need to test if there are impacts on combat (only one squad type participates?).

To help them their squads converted it would be helpful to document exactly what factors are in

The rate defined by the amount of units/element/elements in the pool/ etc..

especially the "etc..." bit.

I know that with 40 MR squads sitting in the active pool and 18 regiments needing 27 to swap, not a single swap occurred. It looks like the active pool needs to get over 50 (or perhaps 2x) before a swap occurs.

Is there another approach they can use?

[Denniss]

Pavel, please re-do the tests you've done for this thread but use the current data files without upgrade path. Do you still see the expected rate of upgrades/swaps?
Will we see actual use of the internal export/upgrade function in WitE if also enabled for SOV ?

[rmonical]

Pelton was kind enough to send me game files. 125, 133, 135.

In all three game files, there are zero new style squads in the active pool. I see no reason why there would be a buildup of new style squads in the active pool under any reasonable circumstance. Players will have to make that happen by reducing the TOE of the units with the new style squads.

As of T-135 the engine has converted less than 20% of his rifle squads to '43 style squads. In fact, it has upgraded far fewer than 20%. Looking at the divisions with the new style squads, it appears that almost all of them arrived in 43. So, there appears to be no way to bootstrap enough new style squads into the active pool to allow for the swap.

New style squads for swap have to come from production

Obviously, knowing about the problem will allow players going in to '43 to have a singular focus getting new style squads into the active pool and thence into units one regiment at a time.

For the games that are into 44, both players need to collaborate to make this happen using the one regiment at a time upgrade approach.

[smokindave34]

ORIGINAL: rmonical


Obviously, knowing about the problem will allow players going in to '43 to have a singular focus getting new style squads into the active pool and thence into units one regiment at a time.

For the games that are into 44, both players need to collaborate to make this happen using the one regiment at a time upgrade approach.

I have two games as axis both in late '43. How exactly should I manage getting the new style squads into the active pool?

[rmonical]

See the armaments thread-my most recent post. Do you know how to find which units have a particular squad type in them?

[smokindave34]

I'm assuming you talking about the rifle squads that start in January '43? Here is my active pool from turn 131 in my game versus Sillyflower. I'll try implementing your advice from the armaments thread - I'm stuggling to see the connection between the upgrades to the new '43 rifle squads and my large numbers of men in the manpower pool (300K+ and growing fast) - what am I missing?

This manpower pool problem has been bothering me for a while. I understand that I am supposed to be getting my butt kicked in late '43 and '44 as the axis but I'd prefer to be fighting with most of my men at the front and not on leave back in Berlin.