Subs Balance

[Q-Ball]

As a topic, this one is a oldie but a goodie!

Anyway, I am playing DDB, and I welcome the enhanced ASW capabilities of ships. This is well-done, and very needed IMO.

But I think the sub war is still broken, and the reason IMO is that it is way too easy to spot subs via aircraft, particularly at night

A spotted sub is not effective, and an alert opponent who takes the time to train airforces can cover every sealane with search aircraft. As a result, commerce raiding becomes more hazardous for the submarine than it does for the hunted.

Greyjoy is an alert opponent, and is likely using convoys, but commerce raiding due to aircraft is basically a waste of time. I only do it to keep him honest, so he doesn't stand down all his search aircraft.

Subs that are detected during the day stay detected at night; this is the problem.

IMO, Sub detection should be re-set to zero during the night phase

Not sure how others feel, but I feel as Allies, against an alert opponent, the sub arm is not decisive. It's good for fleet support, and keeping opponent honest, but nothing more. It's a waste of time for commerce raiding, after the first few months of the war.

Thoughts?

[Chickenboy]

I love the sub war as is, Q-ball.

I wonder how much of your experiences revolve around changing variables on the Japanese side to counter Allied submarine warfare. IRL, the Japanese did a poor job of convoying, escorting convoys, aerial search, aerial ASW, d/c and sonar development, production and implementation, surface naval radar development / delivery. They also had a huge proportion of their naval codes cracked late in the war-allowing Allied plotters to place Allied subs astride transportation routes. In the game, most astute Japanese players know these historical limitations and strive to mitigate them in a number of ways.

So, we're left with the age-old (and impenetrable) question: is it the game engine that's an issue or the simultaneous changing of so many variables in submarine (and ASW) warfare that's responsible for the different "feel"? I'd say there's a preponderance of evidence to support the latter.

For those that consider Allied submarine warfare a waste of time, witness crsutton's recent post about Allied submarine activity in 1945 near Ceylon. A disastrous day for the Japanese-KB gutted in one day by the 'Silent Service'.

Patience, Q-ball.

[witpqs]

I don't think that DBB enhanced the ASW capabilities of ships at all. It was supposed to basically calibrate or normalize them, to better represent their actual abilities. I've got a DBB game going in May of '43 and I haven't noticed any increase over ship-based ASW in an old scenario 1 game that went through the first quarter of 1944.

As far as detecting subs at night - try putting some radar equipped aircraft on night naval search!

Subs not a decisive weapon for the Allies - well, I suppose not. But most of that is because the Japanese player can correct some of the larger mistakes that the Japanese made IRL versus USN subs. Even if the modeling has the effect of somewhat reducing subs' performance, still the overwhelming issue is that the Japanese player does get to actually play. Changing that would be bad!

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


... Subs that are detected during the day stay detected at night; this is the problem.

IMO, Sub detection should be re-set to zero during the night phase ...

How do you square the above with what is written in chapter 10 of the manual? Dl and MDL are related but different. For a TF, the DL is reset to 0 at the beginning of each phase and a perfectly valid reason is provided on page 218 as to why the MDL is not so severely treated.

No, the sub war is not broken. Every tactic has a counter. Not a satisfactory ROI from commerce raiding, what is stopping you from using your subs for other purposes. They can do other things you know. Or why not change your patrol zones; it is a big ocean out there.

If there is just not a single spot on the map not patrolled by Japanese aircraft tasked with ASW, well consider the opportunity cost being paid by Japan which doesn't have those aircraft (inevitably level bombers to make up the numbers for the "blanket coverage") doing other things, like strategic bombing Allied industry. Oh I forgot, you had a HR banning strategic bombing. Another instance of unintended consequences flowing from adopting unnecessary HRs.

You can't expect the game to force players to make the same mistakes which occurred historically. If one player uses hindsight to perform better than was the case historically, you can't expect to achieve the same historical results. It is a game where both players are free to exercise their creative minds to best each other.

Alfred

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

As a topic, this one is a oldie but a goodie!

Anyway, I am playing DDB, and I welcome the enhanced ASW capabilities of ships. This is well-done, and very needed IMO.

But I think the sub war is still broken, and the reason IMO is that it is way too easy to spot subs via aircraft, particularly at night

A spotted sub is not effective, and an alert opponent who takes the time to train airforces can cover every sealane with search aircraft. As a result, commerce raiding becomes more hazardous for the submarine than it does for the hunted.

Greyjoy is an alert opponent, and is likely using convoys, but commerce raiding due to aircraft is basically a waste of time. I only do it to keep him honest, so he doesn't stand down all his search aircraft.

Subs that are detected during the day stay detected at night; this is the problem.

IMO, Sub detection should be re-set to zero during the night phase

Not sure how others feel, but I feel as Allies, against an alert opponent, the sub arm is not decisive. It's good for fleet support, and keeping opponent honest, but nothing more. It's a waste of time for commerce raiding, after the first few months of the war.

Thoughts?

As a somewhat student of the USN submarine campaign I have opinions on this of course. The game models have always been far afield of history, both pro and con. Probably the most askew of any of the model sets in the game. Compared to the A2A models for example the sub war is looney-tunes. In RL it was decisive. In the game, as you say, it is far more marginal even in the hands of an expert player, primarily for the reasons you state. It is far too easy to find a sub and once it is found it is essentially ineffective until it dumps the DL.

How do you still get some use out of them? I think you have to have a 2-prong approach. 1) use them historically, knowing the air ASW assets will easily see them. But you still tie down lots of ASW escorts and lots of ASW air. In the former case that's fuel and in the latter it's ops losses and pilot losses. With DBB's elimination of Super-Es and rationalization of surface ASW the sub is pretty safe and only costs the Allied player fuel (which he has), a little repair, and "fiddle time."

2) The second way to get use out of them is to patrol away from air ASW search capability. IOW, do some choke points, but also put your boats out in deep water sea lanes, spread the zones, and pay the odds. This is not historical, but it mitigates the over-effect of air ASW and air Search routines. As the Japanese map shrinks, as you get more and more Allied subs (nearly 400 before withdrawls), and as you forward base you can do deep water zones that become pretty thick. You can get some work out of your subs, but you won't sink 4/5 of the Japanese merchant marine with them.

One thing you should NOT do is use them as supply pigs. That's just dumb.

[Canoerebel]

I agree with Bulliwnkle that the subs were a decisive strategic factor in shutting down Japanese commerce. IMO, that result is absolutely not going to happen in the game. Allied subs probably should be modeled more historically if people want to add a realism aspect to the game, but from a pure gaming standpoint, okay.

Like most players, I still employ my subs in likely choke points and near ports, hoping for the occasional score, but mainly hoping for the occasional score against something significant.

But the single most important use of Allied subs in this game is probably for intelligence purposes.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


But I think the sub war is still broken, and the reason IMO is that it is way too easy to spot subs via aircraft, particularly at night

Some aircraft useful for ASW have radar and can spot them surfaced in the misty mist of the dusky dusk as well as at night.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


But the single most important use of Allied subs in this game is probably for intelligence purposes.

I get that with IJN subs that have searchplanes, but what tricks do you know about I don't know? They (allied subs) occasionally ID ships passing through, though it's often just the escort they see. Delivering coastwatchers isn't portrayed, is it? What else you got going on?

[GreyJoy]

I hope i can watch and post here QBall...
 
However, first of all, DBB does hamper a lot IJN ability to provide any decent naval ASW activity. Japanese DCs, in DBB, can never reach the enemy subs if in deep waters.
During the first 6 months of war you sunk something like 100 merchants, plus torpedoing a CV, a CVE and several DDs (recently you damaged the BB Fuso with your subs).
It took me a complete re-organization of my routes in order to counter your early sub war. Yes, i do use BIG convoys. It's not a secret. I stopped losing ships when i decided to devote great efforts in forming and organizing convoys. 3 CVEs and almost all my "E" class ships are devoted to these convoys. I change their routes every week try to form "corridors" of safety using air and naval ASW assets. These routes not only make me use way more fuel than what would be needed (and you know how much fuel is a problem) but also forces me to slow down the process of bringing fuel/oil and resources to the HI and supplies from HI to front lines (with the refineries not producing supplies you have, in DBB, to feed ALL your fronts, from Burma to CENTPAC, from Singapore to Java, from the home island).
 
So yes, i think it's balanced and if the jap player isn't paying enough attention the allied subs would bring havoc among IJN shippings..and if he is, the cost in terms of supplies and resources is HUGE...so you're already achieving a long term result, even if it's not that visible
 
my 0.00002 cents[:'(]

[HexHead]

That's the whole point, though.

From 7 Dec 41 until mid-war, the US sub mission was not outstanding - OK enough, but definitely not a decisive arm. This all changed profoundly after the latter part of 1943.

Out of all the efforts against Japan, even more than the air, the submarine interdiction of supply was decisive - not sufficient, in and of itself, but very nearly so -almost necessary; the USN prosecuted and won the world's only successful submarine campaign.

IJN ASW should not be stellar - I dunno if it is, in-game, haven't played the GC far enough.

GreyJoy:

It took me a complete re-organization of my routes in order to counter your early sub war. Yes, i do use BIG convoys. It's not a secret. I stopped losing ships when i decided to devote great efforts in forming and organizing convoys. 3 CVEs and almost all my "E" class ships are devoted to these convoys. I change their routes every week try to form "corridors" of safety using air and naval ASW assets. These routes not only make me use way more fuel than what would be needed (and you know how much fuel is a problem) but also forces me to slow down the process of bringing fuel/oil and resources to the HI and supplies from HI to front lines (with the refineries not producing supplies you have, in DBB, to feed ALL your fronts, from Burma to CENTPAC, from Singapore to Java, from the home island).

IOW, you took ASW seriously.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


But the single most important use of Allied subs in this game is probably for intelligence purposes.

I get that with IJN subs that have searchplanes, but what tricks do you know about I don't know? They (allied subs) occasionally ID ships passing through, though it's often just the escort they see. Delivering coastwatchers isn't portrayed, is it? What else you got going on?

There's a heckuva lot that clever players do with subs. For instance, deploying them to measure detection levels that help reveal holes in search arcs. That takes a fair bit of note taking and patience - not for the squeamish or lazy (like me).

Some very good players don't use subs in the historic way at all. They've abandoned that and instead use them en masse - for instance flooding a zone where enemy ships are about to gather (such as at invasion beaches) or to occupy every hex along likely routes of travel to trigger reports when enemy carriers or combat ships cross that line (this isn't fullproof, of course, but it's amazing how often the warning is given). In my last game vs. PzH, for instance, he had a two-deep line stretched from Sumatra to Ceylon. My Indomitable CV group stumbled across that line and one of PzH's subs signalled the warning. Now, if you have 40 subs between Sumatra and Ceylon, you obviously don't have many operating off the West Coast or Hawaii or Sydney, but he didn't care.

I see good players out there that use subs historically, but I also see good players that have totally abandoned the historic uses to maximize their uses under the peculiarities of the game.

[geofflambert]

As the allied player I have massed in just such ways, but so far without much effect (it's 3/43). Hadn't thought of the detection issue, but my opponent seems to be real short on searchplanes and ASW air ops.

[wyrmmy]

I have dedicated approximately ½ of my IJA bomber forces to ASW, and almost all LB IJN forces do some ASW. I have a good track of allied sub locations, but between the reduction in Japanese ASW effectiveness and the vagaries of air ASW I feel lucky to keep track of them, let alone sink any US subs. Personally I don’t think I have any US subs sunk by ASW aircraft, but Geoff would have to answer that question.

[geofflambert]

Here are my sub losses so far:




You can see that at least two are from aerial attack.

[geofflambert]

Here are the reports I have as to his losses. I would guess maybe 1/3 to 1/2 are from aerial attack.




I believe this may be a significant understatement due to FOW, but by the same token some of these are surely false reports.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


For those that consider Allied submarine warfare a waste of time, witness crsutton's recent post about Allied submarine activity in 1945 near Ceylon. A disastrous day for the Japanese-KB gutted in one day by the 'Silent Service'.

Patience, Q-ball.

This is correct and it was a marvelous day followed by another day of similar slaughter. But only because I was forced to abandoned sub operations in any area where Japanese air search and E class boats can roam freely. I really had no choice but to mass them in support of my offensive operations where my carriers can protect them. The results were devastating vs a wounded and broken up fleet that was short of quality escorts. Sort of what you would expect to happen.

I probably have lost 100 subs in the past year of war-most to the E class boats. I understand that I am playing with the old stock game and that new scenarios and mods have toned them down. I think once I move on to Da Babes I will be pretty happy with my Allies subs but I don't think that they ever will prove to be a serious threat to the Japanese merchant fleet when playing a competent opponent. Not a game breaker but it seems to me that in any good simulation of the Pacific War (and this is the best)the Japanese player needs to sweat a lot over the Allied sub threat. Otherwise something is missing.

But, you make it to 1945 as the Allied player and you will have one hell of a lot of submarines no matter your losses. And they are starting to kill a lot of ships. Keep upgrading your subs-especially for the radar upgrades. It does make a difference.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

As a somewhat student of the USN submarine campaign I have opinions on this of course. The game models have always been far afield of history, both pro and con. Probably the most askew of any of the model sets in the game. Compared to the A2A models for example the sub war is looney-tunes. In RL it was decisive. In the game, as you say, it is far more marginal even in the hands of an expert player, primarily for the reasons you state. It is far too easy to find a sub and once it is found it is essentially ineffective until it dumps the DL.

I would argue that the US Submarines were flattered by the competition. There was nothing particularily exceptional about the US fleet boats. They were large and comfortable, with good range, and there were a lot of them. However, there were a lot more Uboats, and what they gave up in range and comfort, they gained in being quicker to dive and could dive deeper than most US boats. Compare Werner's comments on his dive times to O'Kanes. Uboat's crush depth was 200 -280m. The Gato's crush depth was considerably less and the Balao's hulls could withstand the pressures at 280m but their other fittings could not. The Uboats were were largely annihilated by Allied air and surface ASW in the Spring of 43. Werner's description of his first patrol in the Spring of 43 is chilling. They were so overmatched by the radar equipped long range patrol aircraft. The US boats had surface search and air search radar. But, again, a carefull read of O'Kanes patrols suggest the readiness rate of this equipment was not very high on a long patrol. American torpedoes were a problem throughout the war. So why was the US campaign "decisive" in real life when the Germans were so soundly defeated...I suggest that it was due to the competition. Most players don't replicate the incompetence of the Japanese ASW campaign just as most Allied players don't replicate the incompetence of the British defense of Malaya and Burma or the Dutch defense on Java.

Bottom line: I enjoy the submarine campaign from both sides.

Mike

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


For those that consider Allied submarine warfare a waste of time, witness crsutton's recent post about Allied submarine activity in 1945 near Ceylon. A disastrous day for the Japanese-KB gutted in one day by the 'Silent Service'.

Patience, Q-ball.

This is correct and it was a marvelous day followed by another day of similar slaughter. But only because I was forced to abandoned sub operations in any area where Japanese air search and E class boats can roam freely. I really had no choice but to mass them in support of my offensive operations where my carriers can protect them. The results were devastating vs a wounded and broken up fleet that was short of quality escorts. Sort of what you would expect to happen.

I probably have lost 100 subs in the past year of war-most to the E class boats. I understand that I am playing with the old stock game and that new scenarios and mods have toned them down. I think once I move on to Da Babes I will be pretty happy with my Allies subs but I don't think that they ever will prove to be a serious threat to the Japanese merchant fleet when playing a competent opponent. Not a game breaker but it seems to me that in any good simulation of the Pacific War (and this is the best)the Japanese player needs to sweat a lot over the Allied sub threat. Otherwise something is missing.

But, you make it to 1945 as the Allied player and you will have one hell of a lot of submarines no matter your losses. And they are starting to kill a lot of ships. Keep upgrading your subs-especially for the radar upgrades. It does make a difference.

I can assure you, they do make me sweat alot.

[PaxMondo]

We need to get Cantona to join in here. He is the current, reigning Sub-MEISTER. In his game with Herb, he has played them masterfully ....

[JocMeister]

In my game while the "super E" has certainly caused havoc its really the air ASW that is killing me. I lost over 50 subs sunk by ASW patrols so far. Under my opponents air umbrella I expect a sub to last about 1-2 days before either getting sunk or having to RTB due to damage from bombs.

I largely agree with Q-ball about the DL. Any sub I have within range of Eriks ASW planes instantly gets a 10/10 DL. And this is in mid 44 so my subs have air search radar. In the rare occasions I do manage to intercept something 9 out of 10 times the sub fires at the escorts. This is making merchant hunting an even bigger waste of time. I wish I had realized this sooner! [:)]