Subs Balance

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Silent Hunter IV with manual targetting, 100% realism and mods: "Run Silent, Run Deep" and "TMO" is what brought me to WitP-AE [:)]

Run Silent, run deep has the entire IJN tabular record of movement of main ships + a very convincing Japanse convoy system

most other games have a stock convoy: 2 fleet DDs, 6 "cargo", 1 TK, 1 AP with some minor variations to make it a little more realistic

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Silent Hunter IV with manual targetting, 100% realism and mods: "Run Silent, Run Deep" and "TMO" is what brought me to WitP-AE [:)]

Run Silent, run deep has the entire IJN tabular record of movement of main ships + a very convincing Japanse convoy system

most other games have a stock convoy: 2 fleet DDs, 6 "cargo", 1 TK, 1 AP with some minor variations to make it a little more realistic

Thanks for the info. Might try and find the discs and fire it up again! [:)]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

From my forays into Silent Hunter IV forums,; I was under the impression that Japanese sonar equipment was good, or as good as the Allies

Radar is another story; depth charges rather puny and "advanced weapons" like headhog/ squid non existant

I used to hang out in the SH forums too. Subsim.com? Let's just say that the level of actual technical knowledge was low. IMO.

Some of the "grognards" there can be very knowledgeable I can tell you, and/ or provide very detailed technical descriptions of the boats.

And I have been trying to find info on how good was the Japanese sonar. I think at the beginning of the war it was equivalent to the Allies'
Afterwards, most likely it lagged behind... it doesn't make sense to have something like a hedgehog unless you have a very good idea of where to shoot at

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

From my forays into Silent Hunter IV forums,; I was under the impression that Japanese sonar equipment was good, or as good as the Allies

Radar is another story; depth charges rather puny and "advanced weapons" like headhog/ squid non existant

I don't think so. Not an authority about it but from what I have read. Japanese sonar was not very good at all. Perhaps somebody here has better information on it.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I miss SH on the Amiga! Last good SH game was nr III with GW mod! That was awesome. Then they ruined it! Ruined I tell you.

Agree. I played SH 1, 3 (Grey Wolves), and IV. Then they went off the ranch on V and killed the frnachise. But IV was very bad. Obvious they were Romanians (?) with no one on the team who knew a thing about the USN.

Although I hate playing Nazis, Gray Wolves SH3 is the best of the bunch.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: janh

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Convoys in the game aid Japan greatly due to the DL factors mentioned, as well as the code forcing attacks on escorts far more often than they occured in RL.

The latter part is something that actually interests me a lot more than the DL question. They truly have a habit of targeting escorts, especially slow ones like the PBs. This makes adding PB and other small escorts all the time to adsorb sub attacks a useful tactic. Not sure why this is so. I recall Michael M already commented on that a while ago.

I know it was discussed long ago, maybe 2010? I don't recall the reason given. It's true that some COs would take an escort if nothing else was possible, but a lot of them weren't worth a torpedo. The USN went on a DD-hunting phase in 1944; the USS Harder and Sam Dealey were involved in that one and he got the MOH for it. But once you truck a fish 6000 miles you don't waste it on a converted tuna boat.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: janh

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I enjoyed Silent Service for NES. Tried Silent Hunter IV, but could never get into it.

My favorite is probably still AoD. The AI was terrible, but the overall concept and stuff were great.

I played it a lot too. End of DOS era. I recall it had wolfpacks. Amazing amount of gameplay for a tiny code footprint.

When Win 95 came out the sound drivers were never compatable. I got horrible screeches from AOD and finally gave up. Wouldn't work with 98 either. I never tried it with DosBox and now the disc is a 3 in. and I don't have a drive. The graphics would probably make me sick too. Better to let it live in memory.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

From my forays into Silent Hunter IV forums,; I was under the impression that Japanese sonar equipment was good, or as good as the Allies

Radar is another story; depth charges rather puny and "advanced weapons" like headhog/ squid non existant

I don't think so. Not an authority about it but from what I have read. Japanese sonar was not very good at all. Perhaps somebody here has better information on it.

This is technically dense, but it's the best I know of. For laymen probably read the summary, then start at Section IV.

www.fischer-tropsch.org

Go to "Government Reports", then "U.S. Naval Technical Mission to Japan" and choose report E-10. It's a medium-big PDF.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I miss SH on the Amiga! Last good SH game was nr III with GW mod! That was awesome. Then they ruined it! Ruined I tell you.

Agree. I played SH 1, 3 (Grey Wolves), and IV. Then they went off the ranch on V and killed the frnachise. But IV was very bad. Obvious they were Romanians (?) with no one on the team who knew a thing about the USN.

Although I hate playing Nazis, Gray Wolves SH3 is the best of the bunch.

That's what I heard RE: SH 3, but for me it's USN or bust. There's really no equivalent to the sub war in the Pacific.

SH5 just seemed kooky. Maybe I'll have to try loading up SH4 again, but I imagine I'll get bored and think "I should be running turns against the AI instead..."

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I miss SH on the Amiga! Last good SH game was nr III with GW mod! That was awesome. Then they ruined it! Ruined I tell you.

Agree. I played SH 1, 3 (Grey Wolves), and IV. Then they went off the ranch on V and killed the frnachise. But IV was very bad. Obvious they were Romanians (?) with no one on the team who knew a thing about the USN.

Although I hate playing Nazis, Gray Wolves SH3 is the best of the bunch.

The patched/ modded version of SHIV is actually the best of the series. Grey Wolves SH is good and very inmersive, but SHIV has better capabilities

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I miss SH on the Amiga! Last good SH game was nr III with GW mod! That was awesome. Then they ruined it! Ruined I tell you.

Agree. I played SH 1, 3 (Grey Wolves), and IV. Then they went off the ranch on V and killed the frnachise. But IV was very bad. Obvious they were Romanians (?) with no one on the team who knew a thing about the USN.

Although I hate playing Nazis, Gray Wolves SH3 is the best of the bunch.

The patched/ modded version of SHIV is actually the best of the series. Grey Wolves SH is good and very inmersive, but SHIV has better capabilities

I played with a lot of patches and mods to IV. It's just not good if you were in the USN submarine force. They got too many little, grating things wrong, from uniforms, to watch proceedures, to even the clocks. If you're just a gamer it's probably fun. I saw every flaw. III probably has them too, but I wasn't in the German navy. [:)]

[Speedysteve]

I used to really enjoy some of the SH series. Do 3 and 4 run 'ok 'in windows 8?

[guino272]

I would argue that the US Submarines were flattered by the competition. There was nothing particularily exceptional about the US fleet boats. They were large and comfortable, with good range, and there were a lot of them. However, there were a lot more Uboats, and what they gave up in range and comfort, they gained in being quicker to dive and could dive deeper than most US boats. Compare Werner's comments on his dive times to O'Kanes. Uboat's crush depth was 200 -280m. The Gato's crush depth was considerably less and the Balao's hulls could withstand the pressures at 280m but their other fittings could not. The Uboats were were largely annihilated by Allied air and surface ASW in the Spring of 43. Werner's description of his first patrol in the Spring of 43 is chilling. They were so overmatched by the radar equipped long range patrol aircraft. The US boats had surface search and air search radar. But, again, a carefull read of O'Kanes patrols suggest the readiness rate of this equipment was not very high on a long patrol. American torpedoes were a problem throughout the war. So why was the US campaign "decisive" in real life when the Germans were so soundly defeated...I suggest that it was due to the competition. Most players don't replicate the incompetence of the Japanese ASW campaign just as most Allied players don't replicate the incompetence of the British defense of Malaya and Burma or the Dutch defense on Java.

Bottom line: I enjoy the submarine campaign from both sides.

Mike

It's a bit off-topic, but there are two super detailed board wargames that examine this question, Silent War and Steel Wolves (IIRC). The design team did a tremendous amount of systems analysis looking at all the statistics of sinkings, losses, etc. The games are solitaire and a bit dry, but really give a feel for the different strategies used.

The Germans simply were never going to succeed in their campaign due to the limitations of their starting fleet composition and the relative construction rates of merchant shipping, escorts and replacement subs. The key factor in the model was the number of torpedo tubes you can maintain in the key traffic areas. The US boats were ideal for this due to their size. The German Navy misread the campaign in WW1 and thought the most promising areas would be in the coastal waters off of the British Isles. With the advent of good air coverage, the key hunting areas were in the "air gap" in the middle of the Atlantic. The German boats had to spend too much of their patrol in transit. Even with the supply boats, they couldn't get enough active boats in these areas. Donitz realized this and started going to larger and larger boats, but there was no way German industry could build fast enough. The German boats were more nimble, but didn't have a particularly higher rate of surviving attacks. This was a third order benefit.

Taking into account the tech edge for the Allies in ASW, it makes the equation even worse for the Japanese. Things like surface and air radar act as force multipliers for the US boats and take away from ASW efforts.

It's an interesting comparison.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

From my forays into Silent Hunter IV forums,; I was under the impression that Japanese sonar equipment was good, or as good as the Allies

Radar is another story; depth charges rather puny and "advanced weapons" like headhog/ squid non existant

I don't think so. Not an authority about it but from what I have read. Japanese sonar was not very good at all. Perhaps somebody here has better information on it.

This is technically dense, but it's the best I know of. For laymen probably read the summary, then start at Section IV.

www.fischer-tropsch.org
Go to "Government Reports", then "U.S. Naval Technical Mission to Japan" and choose report E-10. It's a medium-big PDF.

Thanks, I now know how to transform my coal into liquid fuel; will get handy when trying to get rid of my BBQ coals [:D]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




Agree. I played SH 1, 3 (Grey Wolves), and IV. Then they went off the ranch on V and killed the frnachise. But IV was very bad. Obvious they were Romanians (?) with no one on the team who knew a thing about the USN.

Although I hate playing Nazis, Gray Wolves SH3 is the best of the bunch.

The patched/ modded version of SHIV is actually the best of the series. Grey Wolves SH is good and very inmersive, but SHIV has better capabilities

I played with a lot of patches and mods to IV. It's just not good if you were in the USN submarine force. They got too many little, grating things wrong, from uniforms, to watch proceedures, to even the clocks. If you're just a gamer it's probably fun. I saw every flaw. III probably has them too, but I wasn't in the German navy. [:)]

did you serve in diesels or nukes?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury



The patched/ modded version of SHIV is actually the best of the series. Grey Wolves SH is good and very inmersive, but SHIV has better capabilities

I played with a lot of patches and mods to IV. It's just not good if you were in the USN submarine force. They got too many little, grating things wrong, from uniforms, to watch proceedures, to even the clocks. If you're just a gamer it's probably fun. I saw every flaw. III probably has them too, but I wasn't in the German navy. [:)]

did you serve in diesels or nukes?

Bull's first boat is now in a museum:

[Chickenboy]

Eesh. A screw for propulsion, a screw for affixing a mine to the underside of the enemy ship, a screw for everything. Serving in that thing was a sure way to get screwed!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

did you serve in diesels or nukes?

SSBN. But I have had some contact with DBs.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



I played with a lot of patches and mods to IV. It's just not good if you were in the USN submarine force. They got too many little, grating things wrong, from uniforms, to watch proceedures, to even the clocks. If you're just a gamer it's probably fun. I saw every flaw. III probably has them too, but I wasn't in the German navy. [:)]

did you serve in diesels or nukes?

Bull's first boat is now in a museum:

Somebody had a LOT of spare time!

The guy is pretty lifesize though . . .

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: guino27

I would argue that the US Submarines were flattered by the competition. There was nothing particularily exceptional about the US fleet boats. They were large and comfortable, with good range, and there were a lot of them. However, there were a lot more Uboats, and what they gave up in range and comfort, they gained in being quicker to dive and could dive deeper than most US boats. Compare Werner's comments on his dive times to O'Kanes. Uboat's crush depth was 200 -280m. The Gato's crush depth was considerably less and the Balao's hulls could withstand the pressures at 280m but their other fittings could not. The Uboats were were largely annihilated by Allied air and surface ASW in the Spring of 43. Werner's description of his first patrol in the Spring of 43 is chilling. They were so overmatched by the radar equipped long range patrol aircraft. The US boats had surface search and air search radar. But, again, a carefull read of O'Kanes patrols suggest the readiness rate of this equipment was not very high on a long patrol. American torpedoes were a problem throughout the war. So why was the US campaign "decisive" in real life when the Germans were so soundly defeated...I suggest that it was due to the competition. Most players don't replicate the incompetence of the Japanese ASW campaign just as most Allied players don't replicate the incompetence of the British defense of Malaya and Burma or the Dutch defense on Java.

Bottom line: I enjoy the submarine campaign from both sides.

Mike

It's a bit off-topic, but there are two super detailed board wargames that examine this question, Silent War and Steel Wolves (IIRC). The design team did a tremendous amount of systems analysis looking at all the statistics of sinkings, losses, etc. The games are solitaire and a bit dry, but really give a feel for the different strategies used.

The Germans simply were never going to succeed in their campaign due to the limitations of their starting fleet composition and the relative construction rates of merchant shipping, escorts and replacement subs. The key factor in the model was the number of torpedo tubes you can maintain in the key traffic areas. The US boats were ideal for this due to their size. The German Navy misread the campaign in WW1 and thought the most promising areas would be in the coastal waters off of the British Isles. With the advent of good air coverage, the key hunting areas were in the "air gap" in the middle of the Atlantic. The German boats had to spend too much of their patrol in transit. Even with the supply boats, they couldn't get enough active boats in these areas. Donitz realized this and started going to larger and larger boats, but there was no way German industry could build fast enough. The German boats were more nimble, but didn't have a particularly higher rate of surviving attacks. This was a third order benefit.

Taking into account the tech edge for the Allies in ASW, it makes the equation even worse for the Japanese. Things like surface and air radar act as force multipliers for the US boats and take away from ASW efforts.

It's an interesting comparison.

I like that you appear to have registered just to post that... welcome, lurking brother!

Is all of that (mission planning/building to mission, radar, etc.) modeled, even indirectly, in the games?