strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

[Orm]

Lets move on, please.

I think I would set up the Greek units like this in the situation you describe with a combined Axis DOW on Greece during 39. How would you attack with this defense?

Edit: With this setup I asume that CW consider reinforcing Athens with one land unit as soon as possible.

[Extraneous]

Orm, I'm curious as to why you chose to place the III MTN (4-4) southeast of Patras?

Should it became necessary supply from the sea would have to come from the Italian Coast sea zone instead of the Eastern Mediterranean sea zone.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Orm, I'm curious as to why you chose to place the III MTN (4-4) southeast of Patras?

Should it became necessary supply from the sea would have to come from the Italian Coast sea zone instead of the Eastern Mediterranean sea zone.

I would have placed the mountain unit on the resource point.

The best invasion hexes for the Italians are the clear hexes next to Patras (they are adjacent to the Italian Coast sea area). I guess Orm wants to discourage landing SW of Patras. Either way, the Italians will want to move into a port (Patras or Corfu) to be able to bring in more units so they can move inland. Corfu can be reached easily from Albania without an invasion force.

I would expect the attack on Athens to come from the north, therefore I would hold the resource hex - which can only be attacked from 2 adjacent hexes.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Orm, I'm curious as to why you chose to place the III MTN (4-4) southeast of Patras?

Should it became necessary supply from the sea would have to come from the Italian Coast sea zone instead of the Eastern Mediterranean sea zone.

I place the MTN there because I wasn't to strengthen the invasion defense in the minor ports Patras and Kalamai during the surprise impulse.

But the question remains. How do you plan to attack this defense.

[brian brian]

First triremes would blockade the straits leading north from Athens and south from Salonica. Then special shallow-drafted galleys would deliver assault heavy infantry to the smoothest beaches that could be found on the western shore of the Aegean. A key point of the plan would be to land cavalry as soon as possible to mount a lighting advance on the pass at Thermopylae before ultra-elite Greek forces could block the pass, easily bottling up the invading force with a minimal defence.

Oh, wait. Wrong war.



That is a good defense. Given that defense I think I would land Axis divisions on the surprise impulse on the hex east of Kalamai. In 1941.

[Extraneous]

The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:
• +1 if it is a city hex;
• +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;
• +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army;
• + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
• -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and
• -1 if surprised (see 15.).

-1 if surprised.

These modifications are cumulative but the notional unit can never have less than 0 combat factors.

1 - 1 = the notational combat factor is zero.

Add the notional unit’s combat factor to those of any land units in the hex. Then modify their total combat factors for terrain and weather.

The notational modified total combat factor is zero.

Since there are no upper limits on the 2d10 tables this results in a +22 die roll modifier.

Choosing combat tables
You must now select one of the two land combat results tables ~ blitzkrieg or assault. The blitzkrieg table allows retreats and leaves the attacker face-up more often. The assault table will generally increase the casualties for both sides.

The attacker chooses the table if:
1. the defending hex is a non-city hex in clear, forest or desert; and
2. any attacking unit is not attacking across a fort hexside; and
3. either the attacker has more:
• ARM and HQ-A units than the defender; or
• MECH units than the defender and the defender has no ARM or HQ-A units.

To avoid a break through result the defender (Orm) chooses that the assault table will be used or that the notational unit is to be ignored.

The invading units end the combat face up in the hex.

Why not Solonica?

If there is a HQ in Albania and the Alpini MTN (5-4) is in the Southeast hex of Albania it could go east 2 hexes and assist the invasion.

The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:
• +1 if it is a city hex;
• +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;
• +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army;
• + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
• -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and
• -1 if surprised (see 15.).

+1 if it is a city hex.
-1 if surprised.

Invading units must attack the invasion hex in the land combat step (see 11.16 Land combat). They can attack together with other land units that are not invading.

1 + 1 - 1 = the notational combat factor is 1.
Alpini MTN (5-4) + (INF (2-3) division + INF (1-3) division = 1.5) = 6.5 to 1.
6.5 factors of shore bombardment + 6.5 factors of air support = 13 additional factors.

6.5 x 3 = 19.5 to 1 rounded up to 20 to 1.


Weather and Impulse markers
Unmodified weather Nov/Dec Mediterranean Zone:
Fair ~ 50%, Rain ~ 30%, Storm ~ 20%

Chance to modify next weather roll
+1 ~ 30%
+2 ~ 20%

After each sides Impulse the Impulse marker advances:
1 box ~ 30%, 2 boxes~ 50%, 3 boxes~ 20%

This means that there will be 1 pair of impulses before major powers passing will possibly end the turn.

[Orm]

This is how I understand the disposition of the Axis forces after the DOW on Greece. Additional Italian forces available by sea lift or invasion.

With this defense the Bulgarians can march into Salonika so do the Italians still invade Salonika or do they attack elsewhere?


Edit: Note that there are only 1 land unit stacked in Athens. The other units there are 2 SCS and 2 convoy points.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

This is how I understand the disposition of the Axis forces after the DOW on Greece. Additional Italian forces available by sea lift or invasion.

With this defense the Bulgarians can march into Salonika so do the Italians still invade Salonika or do they attack elsewhere?


Edit: Note that there are only 1 land unit stacked in Athens. The other units there are 2 SCS and 2 convoy points.

This is why I would have had the Greek mountain unit in the resource hex. The best that the Italians could get on the mountain unit would be 11:12. Even if they cut it off so it is out of supply, it would still be worth 12 until it's disorganized.

Given the position you've shown, the Italians march south and the Bulgarians take Salonica (assuming they are at war with Greece). It the Greek mountain unit doesn't move (perhaps the Commonwealth is taking a Naval or a Combined and doesn't want to use a land move for the Greeks), then the Italians can wander on down to Athens. But the best they will be able to get is 11:4. Not very promising, and it has taken 3 Axis impulses to get that far.

[Extraneous]

paulderynck post # 65 shows that the Bulgarians cannot send a unit into Greece.

Because that post shows that the Bulgarians only have 1 unit available.

As I pointed out to Patrice in 2007 Mziln post # 219 and brian brian alluded to in post #61.

Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its on map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2 Rumania).

Since the weather is considered fair Balbo HQ-I (3(3)3) need not be in the mountains. It can be in Tirana, Albania.

2.4 Supply
2.4.1 When to check supply
You need to check the supply status of a unit before it moves, flies, sails or reorganises units.

You also need to check the supply status of land units immediately before you resolve an overrun (both sides), during combat declaration
(attacking units) and at the moment of combat (both sides).

Units at sea are always in supply.

A secondary supply source for a unit is:
• an HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1 Who can co-operate); or
• the capital city of a minor country controlled by the unit’s major power; or
• the capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unit’s major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.

A secondary supply source of the tracing unit must be able to trace a supply path either to a primary supply source or via another secondary supply source. That other secondary source must also be able to trace a supply path either to a primary source or via another secondary source, and so on. There can be any number of secondary supply sources in this chain but it must end up at a primary supply source of the unit tracing the path.

Supply paths
You trace a supply path from a unit to a primary supply source. If you are tracing a path from a secondary supply source to a primary supply source, it is a railway supply path.

If you are tracing any other supply path, it is a basic supply path.

A supply path, basic or railway, can be up to 4 hexes. Each Asian or Pacific (AfA/AiF/AsA Option 1: or African, American or Scandinavian) map hex you trace into counts as 2 hexes. Each off-map hex counts as 4 hexes, so you can only trace a basic supply path into an adjacent hex during clear weather.

Railway supply paths
A hex a railway supply path enters, by moving along a railway or road, does not count against the 4 hex limit. A hex it enters across a straits hexside also does not count against the limit, so long as the hexes on either side of the straits are railway hexes.

The 4 non-rail hexes can occur anywhere along the path. Although you will mostly use them to trace supply from an HQ to the railhead, they can be handy for re-routing around an enemy unit that’s blocking a vital rail link.

8.2.2 Supply
The supply range from a unit, or from a secondary supply source, in a hex in fine weather is 4 European map scale hexes.
The supply range from a unit, or from a secondary supply source, in a hex in snow is only 3 hexes.
The supply range from a unit, or from a secondary supply source, in a hex in rain, storm or blizzard is only 2 hexes.

If the weather is not fair I can take one of the INF divisions from Salonica move it to the northeast and establish a supply line through Bulgaria.

2.4.3 Out of supply
Land units
A land unit that is out of supply:
• can’t attack;
• must be turned face-down if you move it (even by naval transport or air transport);
• defends with 1 combat factor if it is a face-down division (see 22.4.1 Divisions (AsA/MiF/PoliF option 2)) or non-white print unit, 3 if it is a face-down white print unit (face-up units defend with their normal strength); and
• option 13: can’t provide HQ support (see 11.16.3 HQ support (option 13)).

Out of supply land units still have their normal movement allowance and still exert a ZOC.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

paulderynck post # 65 shows that the Bulgarians cannot send a unit into Greece.

Because that post shows that the Bulgarians only have 1 unit available.

As I pointed out to Patrice in 2007 Mziln post # 219 and brian brian alluded to in post #61.

Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its on map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2 Rumania).

Since the weather is considered fair Balbo HQ-I (3(3)3) need not be in the mountains. It can be in Tirana, Albania.

2.4 Supply
2.4.1 When to check supply
You need to check the supply status of a unit before it moves, flies, sails or reorganises units.

You also need to check the supply status of land units immediately before you resolve an overrun (both sides), during combat declaration
(attacking units) and at the moment of combat (both sides).

Units at sea are always in supply.

A secondary supply source for a unit is:
• an HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1 Who can co-operate); or
• the capital city of a minor country controlled by the unit’s major power; or
• the capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unit’s major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.

A secondary supply source of the tracing unit must be able to trace a supply path either to a primary supply source or via another secondary supply source. That other secondary source must also be able to trace a supply path either to a primary source or via another secondary source, and so on. There can be any number of secondary supply sources in this chain but it must end up at a primary supply source of the unit tracing the path.

Supply paths
You trace a supply path from a unit to a primary supply source. If you are tracing a path from a secondary supply source to a primary supply source, it is a railway supply path.

If you are tracing any other supply path, it is a basic supply path.

A supply path, basic or railway, can be up to 4 hexes. Each Asian or Pacific (AfA/AiF/AsA Option 1: or African, American or Scandinavian) map hex you trace into counts as 2 hexes. Each off-map hex counts as 4 hexes, so you can only trace a basic supply path into an adjacent hex during clear weather.

Railway supply paths
A hex a railway supply path enters, by moving along a railway or road, does not count against the 4 hex limit. A hex it enters across a straits hexside also does not count against the limit, so long as the hexes on either side of the straits are railway hexes.

The 4 non-rail hexes can occur anywhere along the path. Although you will mostly use them to trace supply from an HQ to the railhead, they can be handy for re-routing around an enemy unit that’s blocking a vital rail link.

8.2.2 Supply
The supply range from a unit, or from a secondary supply source, in a hex in fine weather is 4 European map scale hexes.
The supply range from a unit, or from a secondary supply source, in a hex in snow is only 3 hexes.
The supply range from a unit, or from a secondary supply source, in a hex in rain, storm or blizzard is only 2 hexes.

If the weather is not fair I can take one of the INF divisions from Salonica move it to the northeast and establish a supply line through Bulgaria.

2.4.3 Out of supply
Land units
A land unit that is out of supply:
• can’t attack;
• must be turned face-down if you move it (even by naval transport or air transport);
• defends with 1 combat factor if it is a face-down division (see 22.4.1 Divisions (AsA/MiF/PoliF option 2)) or non-white print unit, 3 if it is a face-down white print unit (face-up units defend with their normal strength); and
• option 13: can’t provide HQ support (see 11.16.3 HQ support (option 13)).

Out of supply land units still have their normal movement allowance and still exert a ZOC.

It is correct that Bulgaria has only one land unit available but that land unit may be moved outside Bulgaria.

According to the rule you quoted the Bulgarian land unit may be moved outside Bulgaria if half or more of their units are in their home country. Currently 100% of their units are in the home country so therefore one unit can be moved outside.

[Extraneous]

Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fi ght outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its on map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2).

Example: Rumania has 4 land units and 1 aircraft unit on the map. You can move a unit out of Rumania if at least 3 of those units (remember, halves round up) are presently in Rumania. They could be 3 land units or 2 land units and an aircraft unit. Its naval units are not restricted.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fi ght outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its on map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2).

Example: Rumania has 4 land units and 1 aircraft unit on the map. You can move a unit out of Rumania if at least 3 of those units (remember, halves round up) are presently in Rumania. They could be 3 land units or 2 land units and an aircraft unit. Its naval units are not restricted.

You need to read this rule and example again and ponder on it.

Hint: In the example it say that if Rumania has 5 (land/AC) units and that 3 of them can be moved outside the country.

Since you just posted the rule without a comment I could have responded by just posting the rule. I do like that you post the rules that is the basis of the argument. But in this case you read the rule wrong. I am sorry if I sound offensive but this annoyed me.

So once again. If a country has only one unit and it is located in its home country then 100% of its units are located in its home country. That is more than 50% so 1 unit may be moved outside. After the only unit is moved outside it has 0% inside so no more units may be moved outside.

With 2 units it is like this: 1 unit is moved outside. 50% remain. Hence a 2nd unit can be moved outside.

With 3 units it is like this: 1 unit is moved out. 67% remain. A second unit is moved out and 33% remain and now no more units can be moved out.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

paulderynck post # 66 shows that the Bulgarians cannot send a unit into Greece.

Because that post shows that the Bulgarians only have 1 unit available.

Alas I fear I have been misquoted. My post was to show they have only one unit because their MIL would be on the spiral at this time. Nothing was intended along the lines of whether or not their starting unit could leave, and of course Orm is correct that it can.

[Extraneous]

Since the rule does have an example to me it was and is very clear and so I did not think it needed a comment.

Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its on map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2).

Example: Rumania has 4 land units and 1 aircraft unit on the map. You can move a unit out of Rumania if at least 3 of those units (remember, halves round up) are presently in Rumania. They could be 3 land units or 2 land units and an aircraft unit. Its naval units are not restricted.

This rule specifically states that you must retain at least half (rounded up) of the minor country units in the minor country before you can have one leave it.

It is made even more self-evident by the rule 19.6.2 Rumania

• Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep half of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave.

So with the exception of Germany denying the claim of the USSR on Bessarabia.


Naval units are not counted nor need be retained in the minor country.

A minor country unit can only leave if a like number (or more) are being retained in the minor country.

1 unit on the map it must be retained in the minor country.
2 units on the map 1 must be retained in the minor country.
3 units on the map 2 must be retained in the minor country.
4 units on the map 2 must be retained in the minor country.
5 units on the map 3 must be retained in the minor country.

Etcetera.

Paul when you corrected my calling up reserves for minor countries like a major power as you can see above it caused changes in the restrictions on use of Bulgarian units.

Bulgaria would have to wait for the MIL reserve unit reinforcement. This would mean Bulgaria would have 2 units and then a Bulgarian unit can leave Bulgaria.

[paulderynck]

Sorry but you have it exactly backwards. "you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its on map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country"

The necessary condition to leave in the first place is that half or more are currently inside. If more than half are outside, those remaining cannot leave.

If a minor country has one unit, it can leave. If a minor country has two units, both can leave. If 3 units, 2 can leave. etc.

[Extraneous]

Please explain this section of the rules.

• Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep half of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave.

Are you advocating that as long as you move them out of the minor country one at a time they can all leave?

1 unit is in the minor country and it can leave.
1 unit is in the minor country and another is not the one in the minor country can leave.
1 unit is in the minor country and 2 are not the one in the minor country can leave.

[&:]

[paulderynck]

It should have been written as: "Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep any of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave." In essence "they can all leave" does the trick. Like all exceptions in rules, the exception is just that - it does not alter the general rule. And the general rule is as stated in my and Orm's posts.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It should have been written as: "Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep any of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave." In essence "they can all leave" does the trick. Like all exceptions in rules, the exception is just that - it does not alter the general rule. And the general rule is as stated in my and Orm's posts.

It is not on the AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary.

So prove it.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It should have been written as: "Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep any of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave." In essence "they can all leave" does the trick. Like all exceptions in rules, the exception is just that - it does not alter the general rule. And the general rule is as stated in my and Orm's posts.

It is not on the AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary.

So prove it.

warspite1

I think that Extraneous and paulderynck should get married - because they bicker like an old married couple. [;)]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It should have been written as: "Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep any of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave." In essence "they can all leave" does the trick. Like all exceptions in rules, the exception is just that - it does not alter the general rule. And the general rule is as stated in my and Orm's posts.

It is not on the AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary.

So prove it.

It does not need to be in the clarifications. It is already in the rules that you do not read correctly.

Edit: Maybe this question from FAQ might help you to see it. The question is not an answer on the subject but the question itself but it makes an example of the rule. Since the question is allowed as written and the question itself is answered one can assume that the example in the question is correct. If it were not correct then surely the answer would have pointed this out. I hope that this question from the FAQ makes you see the light.

Q19.4-3

Question: Finland has a total of 6 units, 4 are
currently outside of Finland. So a 5th can't
leave Finland. One of the 2 Finnish units in
Finland is a LND. Does the rule restriction
"...you can only move a minor country land
or aircraft unit from inside the home
country to outside the home country, if half
or more of its on- map land and aircraft
units are currently inside its home country"
forbid me from
(a) flying a mission with a LND outside the
country during the action stage even if I
return to base in Finland and/or
(b) placing one of the LND in the reserve
pool (with its pilot added to the German
pilots track) during the Production step?

Answer: yes and yes. Date 19/02/2009