New morale rule is Fixed

[rmonical]

I initially attacked this problem from the Axis perspective as the recovery after the blizzard was not according to the rules. I have not played the Soviets in a campaign game. However, one thing that has bothered me about this entire discussion is that the notion that a newly raised division hangs around STAVKA for a couple of months and it is more combat effective than a division that got its butt kicked for a couple of months then was pulled out of the line to receive replacements.

IMHO, the Russia successes during the blizzard are directly related to the combat experience gained whilst losing battles but not getting surrounded and captured.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

I initially attacked this problem from the Axis perspective as the recovery after the blizzard was not according to the rules. I have not played the Soviets in a campaign game. However, one thing that has bothered me about this entire discussion is that the notion that a newly raised division hangs around STAVKA for a couple of months and it is more combat effective than a division that got its butt kicked for a couple of months then was pulled out of the line to receive replacements.

IMHO, the Russia successes during the blizzard are directly related to the combat experience gained whilst losing battles but not getting surrounded and captured.

This is an artifact of the morale system. It rewards wins, and penalizes losses in a fairly binary fashion. I'm not entirely thrilled with this myself for reasons beyond those you mention.

It's all about momentum.

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

However, one thing that has bothered me about this entire discussion is that the notion that a newly raised division hangs around STAVKA for a couple of months and it is more combat effective than a division that got its butt kicked for a couple of months then was pulled out of the line to receive replacements.

The division I have problems with was one of those that "got its butt kicked", but then for two years stayed on low morale, despite being in the rear on refit (and it's army commander wasn't that bad in Morale skill). The only solution I found is to use such division to form a rifle corps (with a 50 morale rifle brigade and other high-40 division).

[rmonical]

The division I have problems with was one of those that "got its butt kicked", but then for two years stayed on low morale, despite being in the rear on refit (and it's army commander wasn't that bad in Morale skill). The only solution I found is to use such division to form a rifle corps (with a 50 morale rifle brigade and other high-40 division).

It will be interesting to see how 2x3 handles British morale when they get around to doing the first part of the war in the west.

[Michael T]

Ok ran same tests again with the new patch 1.07.08

I do not see a drastic reduction in morale gain. Its a marginal improvement at best.

Same 10 ID as before.

Unit ID - Start Morale/ Morale at T3 1.07.07/ Morale at T3 1.07.08 / Difference in gain between version 07 & 08 / Total Morale gain in 2 turns.

178 - 32/41/43 / +2 / 11
18 - 37/51/48 / -3 / 11
144 - 40/49/48 / -1 / 8
166 - 37/50/45 / -5 / 8
187 - 33/41/42 / +1 / 9
229 - 39/47/48 / +1 / 9
160 - 37/45/46 / +1 / 9
170 - 33/43/43 / 0 / 10
186 - 32/43/40 / -3 / 8
98 - 35/47/43 / -4 / 8

I ran another totally new test on 10 ID using 1.07.08 from scratch rather than patching up.

Unit ID - T1 morale/ T3 morale - gain

166 - 39/46 - 7
133 -31/39 - 8
186 - 38/48 - 10
98 - 39/47 - 8
137 - 37/48 - 11
187 - 37/46 - 9
132 - 33/40 - 7
158 - 34/43 - 9
162 - 37/47 - 10
61 - 38/47 - 9

Average gain per unit per turn 4.4 using 1.07.08, under 1.07.07 it was 5.1 per turn. This is hardly a drastic reduction.

It's still too much morale gain in a matter of 2 turns. Honestly if this is the new paradigm for 1941 my days as a German player are done.

What does it mean game wise? All the Soviet need do is stick all units in refit, run for the hills for several turns and he will have an army with most units having a morale around 50.


Joel, why don't you simply leave this rule out of 1941. Easy fix that does not affect the status quo prior to 1.07.07.

[Michael T]

Joel I did some more tests and the problem only seems to be for units attached to Armies that are attached to Stavka. It seems other units are ok, like you say no major impact.

But the Soviets have many units under Stavka at start AND if as a Soviet player I know I am going to get a ~9 point morale boost in 2 turn for Armies under Stavka I will be shuffling units in and out of those armies like a production line.

[Joel Billings]

There is nothing in the code having to do with the Die(10/NM) having to do with Stavka. If Stavka is doing something, it's somewhere else in the code and not in that section. There used to be something in that section having to do with Stavka, but it was only units directly attached to Stavka, so it didn't explain what you were seeing with units attached to armies attached to Stavka. I'll ask Pavel and Gary to look for any other items that might be looking at Stavka, but it would be a big surprise if there's something in the code that's relatively new.

I will say that in looking at the code there is a huge difference for units in refit in the rear and those not. Units in the rear in refit can gain 4-5 points a turn just per the old rules. I ran a test of units that were not in refit and on the front and less than 1 in 5 got any bump in morale at all under the new rules. Maybe you've discoverd some long undocumented feature that units attached to Armies under Stavka get a special boost. If they do, it's not new.

[Michael T]

It seems units NOT in Armies attached to Stavka gain around 1 pt of morale per turn due to the *new* rule. Whereas units that ARE in Armies attached to Stavka are gaining around 3 pts of morale per turn. This morale gain is independent of any gains from refit. That is none of the units I tested in this case were in refit.

But they were more than 10 hexes from the front.

This rule, if left as is means the Soviets simply put a bunch of rear guys in refit under Stavka Armies and they will be morale 50 in 2-4 turns. And any new units will get the same treatment.

If this is how it is then so be it. But I won't be playing German under these conditions. So I guess I will be seeking some German players to chew up.

[Michael T]

Well to be clear I don't have a problem with the morale gains under refit prior to 1.07.07. And I have never seen a unit gain 4 or 5 pts of morale in 1 turn simply due to refit. It always seems to be around 2 pts per turn. But that's besides the point. My beef is what is occurring post 1.07.07

I concur with your assessment that front area troops are receiving very little extra morale boost from this new rule. But units in the rear, attached to Armies under Stavka are getting around 3 pts per turn on top of whatever they may get from from refit.

So a unit that starts the game (or is a reinforcment) at ~35 morale will be at ~50 in 2 to 3 turns if the player puts the unit in refit under the Stavka Armies. Whereas previously this would have taken 7 to 8 turns. It seems quite obvious to me this is a big problem game balance wise, any Soviet player worth his salt will soon close down Barbarossa by August with a multitude of ~50 morale units. Simple as that. And I would challenge anyone who thinks they can prove otherwise. Under these conditions, if left unchanged, 41 is no longer a contest and hence the entire CG41 is no longer a contest. Merely an exercise in dismantling the Axis from mid to late Sept 41 on.

[Michael T]

More tests.

Units attached to Armies/Corps under Stavka within 10 hexes of the front gain no more than any other units on average.

So the problem appears only to be for units attached to Stavka via Army/Corp or directly attached to Stavka that are beyond 10 hexes of the front.

These units are gaining 2 to 3 morale per turn while not in refit. If in refit they get ~5 pts per turn. These are not outliers, they are avg results.

[Michael T]

Ok I have convinced myself that there is no further problem. Sorry for the alarmist comments.

I did more tests and conclude that the units are going up in the extra morale due to this rule:

The unit's morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.

I did not realize this rule was so effective, I had always assumed that the benefit that I was seeing in morale gain was from units being in refit.

I appologize Joel, the *new* morale issue is indeed fixed. What I am seeing now has always existed, I was mistaken in attributing it to the *new* rule.

Thanks for the fix. I can begin my new game with Kamil as German.

[Joel Billings]

Glad to hear there isn't something new out there. It is clear from your tests that putting low morale units in the rear and giving them a few weeks to a month to train up is a key strategy.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Well to be clear I don't have a problem with the morale gains under refit prior to 1.07.07. And I have never seen a unit gain 4 or 5 pts of morale in 1 turn simply due to refit. It always seems to be around 2 pts per turn. But that's besides the point. My beef is what is occurring post 1.07.07

The National Morale issue that I had avery very long thread and loads of turn by turn data (Nov 2011)was that if GHC NM was 75, German and Finnish units only gained 1 point of morale above 60 at a 2% chance.

Units would gain several points per turn to 50 then from 50 to 60 one point per turn like 33% of the time.

SHC could have cared less, GHC and Finnish units simply were usless the rest of the war. You simply could not pull back units to germany and gain a pt over 60.

This is IF working right ( running a test tonight) a huge help to Germany and Finland.

[Michael T]

Well it works from what I have seen. There is a Pz XX, 17th or 18th I think that starts at 75 morale. After 3 turns it was at 83 morale by just sitting around on the front line.

[Peltonx]

Pulled 3 Finnish units off line. All units under a Corp HQ , 10+ hexes from front, refit on and on a railhead.,

NM-80
starting morale:------- 5 turns later ending morale
73--------------------------------------73
73---------------------------------------73
73---------------------------------------73

15 turns = 0.00 ptsof morale per turn.

Same as before patch, Finnish units never gain morale sitting. I need to run some tests with units with morale under 70, but before patch they never gained morale sitting.

Gain per turn 0 Finland broken still.

GHC 1942 refit on ect ect ect
No-HQ
60--60--60--60--60--60=0
57--58--59--59--60--60=3
53--53--54--54--54--61=8
60--66--66--66--66--66=6
Total gain= 17 or .85 per turn.
Units under OKH
52--52--53--54--54--54=2
52--53--53--53--53--53=1
60--60--60--63--68--68=8
57--58--59--59--59--60=3
Total gain= 14 or .7 per turn

40 turns = .775 pt of morale per turn.

14 gains in 40 tries or 35% chance at a 1 pt gain.

Over 60 16 trys and 3 gains or 19%

Before patch gains from 50 to 60 were about 25% chance and now they are 35%

Over 60 gains, before patch 2% chance of a 1 pt gain and after 19%. The gains were 3,5 and 6.

I am happy the gains are better, but hardly worth pulling back units off line 10+ hexes to gain .775 pts of morale per turn.

Basicly GHC NM is still 60 for the war. Its 100% not worth the effort of pulling divisions off the front lines.

This new NM ruleset does help units that get pocketed and come back and thats not in all cases. gains of 0,1,2,3,3 wth?

I have to agree with MT this "fix" helped SHC and did very very little to address the issue of GHC NM. Its 60 as it was before patch.

NM for GHC is still clearly broken, hopefully some other peeps will run some tests.

Prove me wrong P


I will run another test based in 1941 and see what happens.

[Peltonx]

t-1 all OKH

[Peltonx]

T10

[Peltonx]

Interesting data to say the least.

Packing for a 4 day trip.

Working on Finnish test.

GHC morale gains are very random to say the least.

[Joel Billings]

I see there are six German Panzer/Motorized divisions that start below NM so that's a small bonus to the Germans as they will come up to NM (since they're getting a die(8), they could come up quickly if they make the roll, I think come July 41 the Soviets are only getting a die(4) for most of their units). The Finns should come up to 80 as well over time. Yes, there will be a slight advantage gained by the Soviets in 41 with this fix, but the Germans should see an improvement in 42 and beyond as they can now recover some of their lost morale. We'll have to see how it goes. I am curious what German morale usually looks like after the first winter as that would give us an idea if this fix will have a meaningful positive impact on the German army.

[Peltonx]

Div---T1----T10

44----50----55
57----50----58
75----51----54
297---53----66
9-----54----64
262---54---74
299---57---65
62----59----75
111---60----60
298---60---63
168---60---70
71---63----75
24----64---74

13 units so 130 total turns and a gain in morale of 110 points or .85 pts per turn not off much from my smaller test.

or and average gain of 8 1/2 pts in 10 turns wth?