French Army in the Far East 1945

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: BPRE
The armoured regiment of Naval Fusiliers, Shock amphibious unit for landings (not exactly sure about this part)

"Marine Armoured Regiment : Amphibious assault unit to spearhead landings" probably covers it, though, as Francois says, Troupes de Marines have a specialist meaning during France's colonial period that isn't really covered by either 'Marine' or 'Naval Infantry'

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
TOE I'll assume to be same-as US.

Besides the French names tend to be longer than their English equivalents. That 20-character limit is a bear. Little things like "Coloniale" instead of "Colonial" seem to always cause truncation.

Special Forces units would have had more in common with the UK TOEs than the US.

The full versions of French unit names may be a few letters longer than the English, but they have compact and systematic abbreviations.

French Expeditionary Corps in the Far East = Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient = CEFEO
(See French Wikipedia entry : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_exp ... ême-Orient It should be easy enough to pick out units and dates even if you don't speak French, I've added a few of the units it references)

Light Intervention Corps = Corps Léger d'Intervention = CLI (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.L.I. - later becomes 5e RIC)

Study and Research Directorate = Direction Générale des Études et Recherches = DGER (= French intelligence, first French troops back into Indochina were French-manned Jedburgh teams now reporting to DGER - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedburgh_t ... e_Far_East )

2nd Armoured Division = 2e Division Blindee = 2e DB
3rd Colonial Infantry Division = 9e Division d'Infanterie Coloniale = 3e DIC
9th Colonial Infantry Division = 9e Division d'Infanterie Coloniale = 9e DIC

5th Colonial Infantry Regiment = 5e Régiment d’Infanterie Coloniale = 5e RIC
11th Colonial Infantry Regiment = 11e Régiment d'Infanterie Coloniale = 11e RIC (liberated part of original French Indochinese garrison)

Far East Brigade = Brigade d'Extrême-Orient = BEO
Far East Marine Brigade = Brigade Marine d'Extrême-Orient = BMEO
3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment = 3e Régiment étranger d'Infanterie = 3e REI
13th Foreign Legion Demi-Brigade = 13e Demi-Brigade de la Legion Etrangere = 13e DBLE (_very_ famous, had essentially been in combat ever since the Norway Campaign of 1940, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Demi- ... ign_Legion)

Anywhere you see 'groupement de marche' (gm) the best translation is probably 'battlegroup', you may also also see Bataillon de Marche, Regiment de Marche and Division de Marche, which are all basically units formed from other units for a specific campaign, the type of unit will go in the middle, so you might get a Bataillon d'Infanteries de Marche (which would be a BIM).

Useful listing (in French)of Coloniale/Troupes de Marine and Armee d'Afrique units: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Régiments_des_colonies (The English Wikipedia's insistence on English translations of most foreign unit names drives me up the wall, I'm so much happier with the French terms I have to translate them back into French to know who they're talking about, even though I'm a native English speaker).

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: dwg

ORIGINAL: BPRE
The armoured regiment of Naval Fusiliers, Shock amphibious unit for landings (not exactly sure about this part)

"Marine Armoured Regiment : Amphibious assault unit to spearhead landings" probably covers it, though, as Francois says, Troupes de Marines have a specialist meaning during France's colonial period that isn't really covered by either 'Marine' or 'Naval Infantry'

Fusiliers marins are not troupes de marines (or troupes coloniales back then), but Navy. They usually are tasked with protecting naval bases, and providing naval commandos, so I suppose you can call them naval infantry.

In Indochina, they formed riverine troops, "flotilles fluviales", later to be known as Divisions navales d'assaut (dinassaut).

Francois

[JeffroK]

Thanks fchartion and others for these details, Street without Joy by Bernard Falls, plus his book on Dien Bien Phu, were always favourites.

The article Don posted says that JFK handed out copies of "Guns of August" during the Cuban Missile Crisis and should have sent copies of La Rue Sans Joie before they decided to get involved more deeply in Vietnam.

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: dwg
Anywhere you see 'groupement de marche' (gm) the best translation is probably 'battlegroup', you may also also see Bataillon de Marche, Regiment de Marche and Division de Marche, which are all basically units formed from other units for a specific campaign, the type of unit will go in the middle, so you might get a Bataillon d'Infanteries de Marche (which would be a BIM).

Just to elaborate on that, the term "de marche" is used in a number of cases :

- for temporary units made out of unaffected troops, usually out of depot or just mobilised, marching to the front where they would be dispatched to regular units, this is the original meaning
- for the reverse situation, units marching back from the front to depots, usually remnants of units
- then for adhoc units incorporating elements detached from various parents, this was typical in colonial and foreign expeditions, where one would assemble a régiment de marche from a collection of battalions taken from colonial units in the area. This was the case in Indochina
- then again, for any unit used out of its original command : for instance, during WWI, many battaillons d'infanterie légère d'afrique (aka bat' d'af, units which conscripted former convicted felons), were detached to the West front, and just changed their name to BMILA (bataillon de marche d'infanterie légère d'Afrique). A similar situation happened after Sedan, in 1870, when colonial troops were called in, and formed Zouaves de marche, chasseurs de marche, in the infamous Bourbaki army.

During WWII, the last case happened with the Régiment de marche du Tchad, which used to be Régiment de tirailleurs sénégalais du Tchad, but was renamed to indicate the change of command, and the incorporation of (a small number of) volunteers from the free french. The régiment de marche du Tchad became the first free french regiment, and was allowed to keep its "de marche" afterwards (it is still named that, even though it is not a temporary force)

I believe other Free French regiments originally from the Armée d'Afrique (loyal to Vichy until 43) added "de marche" to their name to stress their difference (but most reverted to their original names later)

Another famous gotcha is the 3e REI, which took back the name Régiment de marche de la Légion Etrangère from 43 to 45. The RMLE had been created during WWI to incorporate several battalions of the FFL (which belonged to Armée d'Afrique) fighting in France. After the war, the unit was kept and renamed the 3e REI. In 1942, after Torch, it became the 3eREIM régiment étranger d'infanterie de marche, and then took back its former name as RMLE.

But in general, "de marche" more or less means "provisional".

Francois

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

The 2eme DB is a difficult outfit, as it grew throughout the war, from a purely free french unit with units from west africa (known then as column leclerc), into a division mostly built from units from the Armée d'Afrique in 1943, then incorporating other elements during the campaigns in France and Germany in 1944 and 1945.

The classical reference work for french OOB would be the "Grandes Unites Françaises" series published by the ministry of defense in the sixties. Volumes one to three will have the 1940 OOB, volume four the 42-43 units, and volume five (which is actually a four book monster) the 44-45 OOB. The data you want should be in volume 5, part 2.

I doubt you can find them in book shops or on Amazon, but specialised libraries certainly have a copy.

http://stonebooks.com/archives/971116.shtml

Francois

Hi,

do you know if the whole 2nd Armoured Division was send to Indochina. As far as I can tell, only Groupement Massu was present?

Thanks!

K

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: JeffK
Street without Joy by Bernard Falls [...] were always favourites

In this context, the OOB of the French Army in the Far East should include the "hallowed institution of French colonial forces, the B.M.C." - in game terms a base force with a couple of support squads [;)].

[fcharton]

Hi Kereguelen,

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
do you know if the whole 2nd Armoured Division was send to Indochina. As far as I can tell, only Groupement Massu was present?

It certainly wasn't sent as a whole. As far as I know, only the groupement de marche, about 2000 men, was sent to Indochina in late 1945. The rest of the division served duty in France, and the 2eme DB was disbanded in March 46, some of its components being reaffected to other units. Most armored regiments contributed a company (or escadron), I believe a significant part of the bataillon de marche du Tchad went, too, and some support elements.

But then, as many elements of the division remained after it was disbanded, and as the Indochina war lasts until 1954, it is quite possible that part of those units were sent there later. We are just discussing the early elements of the CEFEO, those that restored French rule over Indochina in 45, right?

Francois

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: fcharton


Hi Kereguelen,

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
do you know if the whole 2nd Armoured Division was send to Indochina. As far as I can tell, only Groupement Massu was present?

It certainly wasn't sent as a whole. As far as I know, only the groupement de marche, about 2000 men, was sent to Indochina in late 1945. The rest of the division served duty in France, and the 2eme DB was disbanded in March 46, some of its components being reaffected to other units. Most armored regiments contributed a company (or escadron), I believe a significant part of the bataillon de marche du Tchad went, too, and some support elements.

But then, as many elements of the division remained after it was disbanded, and as the Indochina war lasts until 1954, it is quite possible that part of those units were sent there later. We are just discussing the early elements of the CEFEO, those that restored French rule over Indochina in 45, right?

Francois

Hi Francois,

thanks! And yes, only the CEFEO. The stock AE OOB for the French was mainly based on what I was able to find out about the French units that actually landed in Indochina in late 1945, btw.

K

[fcharton]

Hi K,

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
thanks! And yes, only the CEFEO. The stock AE OOB for the French was mainly based on what I was able to find out about the French units that actually landed in Indochina in late 1945, btw.

To my shame, I must say I never checked the Free French OOB in AE... From this (sorry about wikipedia, I'm at work and lack the time): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_exp ... Ame-Orient
It looks like a couple of units are missing

Le premier détachement français, constitué d'une compagnie du 5e RIC/CLI, débarque à Saigon le 12 septembre 1945 avec les troupes britanniques du major général Gracey (20e division indienne).
Le 21 septembre, les troupes valides du 11e RIC (1 400 hommes), emprisonnées dans leur caserne depuis le coup de force japonais du 9 mars, sont libérées et réarmées.
Le 3 octobre, le commando Ponchardier et le reste du 5e RIC débarquent à leur tour en Indochine.

ie :

The first French detachment, one company from 5th RIC/CLI lands in Saigon on 45/9/12, with the British troops of Major Gracey (20th Indian Division).
On September 21st, the remaining troops of the 11th RIC (1 400 men), held in their barracks since the Japanese coup on the 9th of March, are freed and rearmed.
On the 3rd of October, Commando Ponchardier and the rest of the 5th RIC arrive in Indochina.

Which means there should be 2 infantry regiments by early october (OOB says one base force)

and then :

du 15 au 21 octobre : GM/2e DB (groupement de marche de la 2e DB) aux ordres du lieutenant-colonel Massu (2 000 hommes),
décembre 1945 : 9e DIC du général Valluy,

you have those two.

fin décembre 1945, BEO (brigade d'Extrême-Orient, 1 200 hommes),
décembre 1945, 3e REI,
février 1946 : 3e DIC du général Nyo,
février 1946, 1er bataillon de parachutistes SAS du chef d'escadron Mollat,
mars 1946, 13e DBLE,
19 juin 1946, 2e bataillon de parachutistes SAS du chef de bataillon Mollat.

Those seem to be missing (I didn't see the paras in the british OOB either). I don't think it breaks the game or anything, just that... for the sake of completeness.

A few more I've spotted : "1st Regt de Cheval Tank Regiment" might win the prize for the funniest french unit if one was given. To a french reader, this sounds a bit like "First horsemeat tank regiment" or something... I suspect you meant 1st Chasseurs (à cheval). As for the Free French Command, I believe it would be better to consider it under Leclerc than De Gaulle in late 45.

Not criticizing, mind you, I'll fight whichever French you give me, once my game arrives in 1945, but since we're on the subject...

Francois

[Symon]

Hi Don,

Looked all over for any of the individual volumes with no joy. Then Francois found me some US libraries with copies of "Les grandes uniteìs françaises : historiques succincts" including FSU in Tallahassee, only a couple hours away. Says a lot for my research technique, yeah?

It's my go-to place for some other things and have good relations with the research librarians. Sounds like it's time for another road trip. Send me a list.

JWE

[Skyland]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


Hi,

do you know if the whole 2nd Armoured Division was send to Indochina. As far as I can tell, only Groupement Massu was present?

Thanks!

K

Hi,
I have made some research some time ago for my mod.
GM of 2nd DB was composed of :
4th bataillon of Regiment de Marche du Tchad + elements of armored regiment of Fusiliers-Marins
1st company de Marche of 501th Regiment de Char de Combat
7th escadron of 1st regiment de Marche de Spahis Marocains (with Stuart M5 A1 tanks)
71th bataillon of Genie Colonial

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Skyland

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


Hi,

do you know if the whole 2nd Armoured Division was send to Indochina. As far as I can tell, only Groupement Massu was present?

Thanks!

K

Hi,
I have made some research some time ago for my mod.
GM of 2nd DB was composed of :
4th bataillon of Regiment de Marche du Tchad + elements of armored regiment of Fusiliers-Marins
1st company de Marche of 501th Regiment de Char de Combat
7th escadron of 1st regiment de Marche de Spahis Marocains (with Stuart M5 A1 tanks)
71th bataillon of Genie Colonial

Hi,

many thanks! Most interesting, I have never seen a detailed listing of the GM.

Btw., your mod is most interesting (didn't know about its existence before). Do you have any objections if I (ahem) plunder your ship art for my own mod (still work in progress)? I already have most Free French ships (including the Oiseaux des Iles [:)]) but lack artwork for them.

K

[Skyland]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen




Hi,

many thanks! Most interesting, I have never seen a detailed listing of the GM.

Btw., your mod is most interesting (didn't know about its existence before). Do you have any objections if I (ahem) plunder your ship art for my own mod (still work in progress)? I already have most Free French ships (including the Oiseaux des Iles [:)]) but lack artwork for them.

K

Of course, no problem.

[Don Bowen]

My thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread. Been away for a while so I'm just catching up.

Anything after VJ day is just "suppos'n", so for my mod I'm going to suppose like this:

1. Free French Units transferred to the Pacific after VE day would be available for combat outside of Indochina, including any invasion(s) of the Japanese Homeland.
2. All of the combat units listed/linked to in this thread are available.
3. The 2nd Armored is available IN ITS FULL 1944/45 OOB/TOE. For this I use: http://stephane.delogu.pagesperso-orange.fr/orga-2db.html. This site is the only one I have found with detailed TOE data.
4. Ex-Vichy Units in Indochina will not become available. I'd like to link them to the capture of the various locations where they were stationed but just do not have the mechanics to do this.
5. As much as I can, I'll use French names. 2e Blindee Division, for instance. Due to character limitations on the name field, I may not use the proper numeric designations. I.E. 13eme will be 13e. Does this seem OK to those whose understand French military terms?

All of this I feel I can support with the various data sources from this thread. Again, thanks to all.

[Don Bowen]

Looks like "47th" was a typo. Apparently was 49th. See: http://stonebooks.com/history/freefrench.shtml

ORIGINAL: fcharton

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Google and I believe the 7th Algerian was replaced by the 47th (French?) Infantry and all three Senegalese Regiments were replaced by (white) Colonial Regiments. Officially because the African soldiers were less able to endure cold weather. Google hints of racial issues as the real reason.

This is weird... For what I understand, the 47th Infantry Regiment (motto Semper Fidelis, go figure!) was a "rappelé" unit, ie existing only in times of mobilisation. As such, it was formed in 1939 and disbanded in 42. It was then rebuilt in 1955 in Algeria, to incorporate conscripts. Also, as a line regiment, it seems strange to see it in what clearly was a troupe coloniale outfit.

The 7th RTA served occupation duty in germany until the early 50s, and then was sent to Indochina. It was considered a pretty reliable unit, in fact it did serve on the french side in Algeria... Don't know where Google found its information, but it seems a bit off.

Francois

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Looks like "47th" was a typo. Apparently was 49th. See: http://stonebooks.com/history/freefrench.shtml

It makes sense. The 49th was another conscript regiment. Disbanded in 1940, it was rebuilt in 1945 to incorporate FFI (resistance troops operating inside France) in the regular army. It formed one bataillon de marche which was sent to Indochina in 1946.

Back on the "blanchiment", I believe the main reason for shuffling African, Colonial, FFL and FFI units around in 1944 and 1945 was the need to restore some form of cohesion inside the French army. In 1945, French forces were a very odd mix of units which had fought very different wars, and disliked, sometimes hated, each other.

You had:
- troops from the French resistance, FFI (Gaullists) and FTP (Communists)
- troops from the French Armée d'Armistice, ie 1940 units under Vichy government,
- former prisonners from the 1940 army
- armée d'Afrique (and colonials), who had served Vichy, and then the Allies after Torch, and fought in North Africa, France and Germany
- FFL, ie Free French under De Gaulle, small units, but with a lot of legitimacy (although the colonials would despise them as "servants of the British")

A lot of the shifts in parent were prompted by the need to have all those factions operate together, and therefore mix "resistance units" like the 49th, with colonials, FFL and sometimes armée d'armistice units.

Francois

[Madmat]

I apologize for digging up that thread, but I came accross while looking for informations on the French trooops' organization in Indochina.

In the process, I may have bring some details about that:

ORIGINAL: fcharton
Back on the "blanchiment", I believe the main reason for shuffling African, Colonial, FFL and FFI units around in 1944 and 1945 was the need to restore some form of cohesion inside the French army. In 1945, French forces were a very odd mix of units which had fought very different wars, and disliked, sometimes hated, each other.

The "blanchiment" of the French Army in 44-45 was due to several reasons.
- First one was the urging of the (still segregated) US Army. Since the Americans were providing the equipment to arm or rearm the new Free French divisions, they strongly insisted that they did so to white troops. If the "blanchiment" was only done partially in the French 1ère Armée, since it couldn't be stricly imposed to a French command, it was not the same for Leclerc's 2e Division Blindée (2e DB). Since the latter unit was to operate from England and under American command for the Normandy campaign, both the British & Americans urged it to replace "indigènes" troops with "white" ones.
- Later on, after the landing in Provence and the march from Provence to Alsace, losses among colonial units imposed to retire some of them and replace them with new units formed from enlisted résistants. De Gaulle was keen to oblige the latter, for he didn't want to leave armed communist maquis behind the army, and rather have them amalgamted in the army.
- Per tradition, at least since WW1, the French Army tried its best not to put colonial troops on the frontline in Winter, for they were supposed to be "racially" inadapted for that climate. I'm sure Moroccan Tabors would have had a say to that, but anyway they were gradually withdrawn from combat in late 44/early 45, and replaced by freshly enlisted troops.

Nonetheless, the "blanchiment" was nowhere complete ...