Hairy Asian Experiences - GreyJoy (J) vs. Q-Ball (A)

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

70 4engines are reported downed today... a very good hunting day! The brits must be hurting....[:D]

Hory crap! A great disturbance is felt in the force. [:(]

[JeffroK]

Is Magwe's oil worth the loss of so many 4E??

Pummeling Akyab might have been a better use.

Even Schweinfurt didnt cost so much!

[koniu]

Great day. Congrats

You probably was lucky also. I suspect that he have also heavy sweeps ordered from different AF but today weather was on Your side and they stay on ground. 70 4E, his pools will definitely notice that.

As for oil. In most AAR Magwe oil is shot down much earlier and You still will able to use it for some time.

[obvert]

That is a massacre. Sweeps for days ahead would have been much more to his benefit, but if he's going to keep throwing medium sized raids with escorts (?!) at you, your pilots are going to be unbelievable by 44. This is not only a poor tactical move by the Allies, it's actually a losing tactic he continues to employ over and over. He's digging himself a bigger and bigger hole by the way he's using what should be his best weapon; the 4E. He's also basing them so close he can't be sure his sweeps will go in first and his fields are ripe for a counter should you decide to throw the dice and go for a big raid. If he's only flying 6 hexes, why not use 2E?

To top it off, the oil should have been nailed about a year ago, and he's left it for you until late 43? [:-]

Against Torsten right now he's destroyed 160 oil points by July 42, mostly pecking away at night, with a few massive raids thrown in here and there. Jocke solved it in late 42 in that game.

He has P-47s and Corsairs, plus Lightnings, right? Spit VIII as well? He should be getting about 12 groups of those into India, alternating days to keep pilots fresh with each and sweeping EACH TURN whether bombers follow or not. He should be dancing around your big fields, closing the smaller ones and only when you're weaker taking out the big 300-400 fighter bases.

Although your play has been stellar and I wouldn't want to take anything away from that, your opponent seems to be floundering as he progresses farther into the campaign and he isn't learning to adapt to the new conditions this part of the game entails.

[veji1]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: veji1

I can't see how QBall could just surprise Greyjoy and seize a base in Sumatra... The best bet for him remains the combination of southe DEI and north NG until he has enough CV power to be able to risk landing in the middle of the ocean far away from his LBA and risking Greyjoy's LBA+KB, and that is from mid 44 on.

No, I have to disagree here. If you wait until mid 44 to put pressure on Japanese oil production, then I think you have lost the game. By then a competent Japanese player will have banked enough HI to see the war out.

I didn't mean not going for the oil, I am saying that right now the best way to keep advancing towards the oil is to do all it takes to get that second base near Molu up and running. Once he got that second base running, it will be easier to snowball and get a firm grip on the southern DEI, already being able to threaten the Borneo bases for example.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Is Magwe's oil worth the loss of so many 4E??

Pummeling Akyab might have been a better use.

Even Schweinfurt didnt cost so much!

No, I don't think it is worth the loss of those 4Es, but he has a lot to spare. He has lost very few 4Es and used them very wisely so I think this was just an unlucky attack. Brad said the weather screwed his plans cause, as Koniu said, he had organized a HUGE sweep+LRCap that didn't launch because of heavy storms... happens, as we all know.

However, Erik, think you're too harsh with Brad here. He has played conservatively for sure, but I did the same. I never attacked him and forced him always to come to me if he wanted to attrit my air force.

Several sweeps every day as you describe simply means playing in my hands. Numbers are with Japan. I can easily sacrifice 50+ fighters per day. He can't. Also, even if sweeps kill my pilots, fighting on my own bases means I can recover most of them, while he cannot.

Anyway, he can improve his approach to the air war, for sure, but in a scenario 2 environement, against an IJN player very conservative, I can tell you that it's pretty hard for the allies to do what you suggest. I've been there...

In Burma I now have 230 Tojos, 200 Franks and 90 Georges. I'm using these guys always on a defensive role, moving them around as much as possible, not to give him easy targets. Mandalay, Magwe and Rangoon are pretty well defended with PLENTY of heavy AA... won't be easy for him to close them, I can tell you. Sure he can do that...but he'll need much much more groups in India...and if those groups are in India means that they are not in northern Oz or in NG... it's a game of balance... not exactly easy for the allies.

[GreyJoy]

Reading all your comments about Brad's next move, I think his best bet is to remain focused on southern DEI.
As Veji said, another base to back up Molu is badly needed and shouldn't be that difficult to achieve for him if he commits his CVs... sure it will be risky, but I think, from now on, no allied operations can be risk-free, and he knows it.

What to do so? Well, the KB is close. The LBA is ready. The surface assets are ready too.
I'm monitoring the situation in the Gulf of Carpentaria. Cruisers are moving towards Horn Island... so, yes, he's gathering his forces here. BBs and CVEs are at Normanton...waiting... we just need to see his CVs to be 100% sure

[veji1]

Greyjoy,

I think you should really bear in mind that more than anything else what he now needs to do is to go after the KB at this point. the KB won't matter much in late 44, but until then it's existence as a strong fleet means that he needs to heavily protect all ops except a few sneaky ones and it massively slows down his advance. If he want's to pick up steam it is vital that the KB be blunted. He can afford losses. So don't be surprised if next time he seems to go for a big amphib Op to land in southern DEI his CVs just turn, abandon the amphibious fleet and just charge toward the KB for a close quarter fight... He doesn't care if he loses 4 or 5 CVs if he can sink 5 or 6 of yours. At this point of the game the trade is worth it because your KB goes from becoming a 900 planes beast to a 550 planes threat that LBA and CVEs alone can almost handle. Than he can speed up his ops massively. Keep that in mind.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Is Magwe's oil worth the loss of so many 4E??

Pummeling Akyab might have been a better use.

Even Schweinfurt didnt cost so much!

No, I don't think it is worth the loss of those 4Es, but he has a lot to spare. He has lost very few 4Es and used them very wisely so I think this was just an unlucky attack. Brad said the weather screwed his plans cause, as Koniu said, he had organized a HUGE sweep+LRCap that didn't launch because of heavy storms... happens, as we all know.

However, Erik, think you're too harsh with Brad here. He has played conservatively for sure, but I did the same. I never attacked him and forced him always to come to me if he wanted to attrit my air force.

Several sweeps every day as you describe simply means playing in my hands. Numbers are with Japan. I can easily sacrifice 50+ fighters per day. He can't. Also, even if sweeps kill my pilots, fighting on my own bases means I can recover most of them, while he cannot.

Anyway, he can improve his approach to the air war, for sure, but in a scenario 2 environement, against an IJN player very conservative, I can tell you that it's pretty hard for the allies to do what you suggest. I've been there...

In Burma I now have 230 Tojos, 200 Franks and 90 Georges. I'm using these guys always on a defensive role, moving them around as much as possible, not to give him easy targets. Mandalay, Magwe and Rangoon are pretty well defended with PLENTY of heavy AA... won't be easy for him to close them, I can tell you. Sure he can do that...but he'll need much much more groups in India...and if those groups are in India means that they are not in northern Oz or in NG... it's a game of balance... not exactly easy for the allies.

I get what you're saying completely. I'm sure it's very hard to make this work, but it can work. I have an example to prove how it can be done against my own air force which at some points has been almost twice as numerous as your own in Burma. I'm sure there are things I didn't do well, but I feel I employed the same style of defense you're using in the air, mostly defensive. I had at one point 800-900 fighters in Rangoon alone plus others elsewhere, all with 60-80 exp pilots, all Georges, Tojos and Franks and with great support. Jocke wore that down. It's not just sending wave after wave, it's changing things up to make sure I couldn't load everything on one attack, changing composition and strength of bombing to lure me into committing my air force, and then picking the exact right moment to go for the whole shebang and bomb the main base. It's a hard strategy to carry out which is why I have utmost respect for my opponent. Jocke figured out how to beat the Japanese numbers. Not enough players are willing to get creative and go outside of their comfort zones to try a new approach, and I think that's what Brad needs to do here, but you're also great at adaptation, so it would and should be a constant cat and mouse, never knowing who is which. Right now I'm pretty sure where the cat is located.

It is a game of balance, but if he's not going to put enough in to make it work, he should himself play a defensive air war here. He cannot give you 50 easy kills against escorts with every bombing attack and not expect pilot quality to go in your favor. I agree that for Japan the best strategy is to fight over your own bases to save pilots and give a better chance for the Allies to wear down and lose their own. I did that for the most part, but there were times when I had 200-300 planes up and Jocke would get literally 7-8:1 in kill ratios with P-47s and Corsairs, later with Spit VIII. I'm still unclear how that happens when the pilots are not so different and I've tried every single configuration of defensive arrangement and layering possible, including not layering.

You can sacrifice 50 fighters a day, but not for only 10 of his. That's the difference. Maybe it's because we are using 2nd best maneuver band rule and Jocke always had the dive, but the P-47 can get over anything you have so that shouldn't be the problem. The problem for him seems to be the interest to take a new approach.

PS - I have no idea why I'm writing this in your AAR. I should write it in his, but for some reason I'm not. I'm not trying to be harsh against him as I know he's quite obviously successful and experienced. I guess I am trying to highlight that if you're successful here, and if he doesn't learn to adapt to new conditions, it could have much wider implications both strategically and psychologically for the remainder of the campaign. So keep it up![:)]

[ny59giants]

I did that for the most part, but there were times when I had 200-300 planes up and Jocke would get literally 7-8:1 in kill ratios with P-47s and Corsairs, later with Spit VIII. I'm still unclear how that happens when the pilots are not so different and I've tried every single configuration of defensive arrangement and layering possible, including not layering.

I believe that part of it to do with the difference in speed between opposing aircraft. I think it was LaBaron who wrote in a thread about how the combat result will stronger go in favor of a particular airframe once it has achieved a certain difference in speed. I'm usually pretty good at copying and saving that info, but I didn't here. The common denominator in your example all belong the "400 Club." Add in the P-38s and they have max speeds over 400 mph. The P-47 is highest at this point at 429 mph and this seems to be why it is a favorite of Allied players and hated by Japanese. The Frank is the only Japanese airframe that comes close until the end of the war models.

[JocMeister]

Erik, you are making me blush! [:D]

Nice result GJ! Whatever his pools are that is going to hurt him.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

70 4engines are reported downed today... a very good hunting day! The brits must be hurting....[:D]

Yes, if the Allies are going to have any sort of success in Burma then they have to send better planes. Corsairs and Hellcats lightnings and thunderbolts. You just can not fight the Tojo with Hurricanes. It is suicide. But you can beat all Japanese fighters using the 4Es and advanced Allied fighters. Tojos are obsolete vs them and the Frank and George have high services ratings which are easy to exploit if they are not based on rail lines. The Allies are getting pretty strong in the air by late 43. They can never match the numbers that Japan can put up but by late 43 should be able to win any air campaign that they choose at the point of attack. As Obvert points out it just takes a little planning.

Basically, Brad did the right thing but he had the weaker fighters combined with bad luck. Frankly, I am amazed that GJs Tojos were able to down so many 4Es. My experience is that the tojo is not very good at downing them. But Brad's loss is not the end of the world and 33 oil points are 33 oil points no matter what.

I am impressed with the Grejoy's flak kills. This game does feature deadly flak even for Japan. I usually send my heavies in at 7k in stock. But not in this mod..

[Cribtop]

Crsutton, note that GJ is using the Tojo IIc, which is pretty good at getting 4Es due to better armament than the earlier Tojo, which I agree is only so-so against 4Es.

[GreyJoy]

Hi all,

sorry for the lack of updates but yesterday was a day a bit problematic... we had a flood here (well, almost)... my parents got completely flooded (with the basement with 1mt of water!), while my house escaped just in time (10cm more and the river would have come out of its limits right in front of my house)...so I have been a bit busy[:D]

BTW, turns have reached November 6th... and Brad seems to have listened to Ross and Erik and started to sweep me to death in Burma... today 4 sweeps+LRCAP missions against Mandalay. Not less than 125 P-47s swept, while 50 P-38Hs, 80 Hellcats, 30 P40s and some 18 Corsairs (all on LRCAP) attacked my Air Fleet.

We fought back anyway. Japan had 30 franks dowened, 35 Tojos and some 20 Georges, while the allies lost 30 P-47s and some 20 more planes. The score is 89 downed a/c for Japan and 51 for the allies. Not bad i'd say.

The KI-84r has entered into production... even if I know this isn't a winning machine, still it may give me a good defensive weapon against the allies dogfighters. At high altitudes it's well worth a Spit VIII and it can also fight at good terms against the P-38s (the Frank "R" has a max speed of 399 mph!). It has a better climb rate than the "A" version (which is a Achille's heel of the "A" version).

The news is that the allies are ready to move on NG coast... 20k men have been loaded on APAs at Hansa Bay... pretty sure they are going to Hollandia cause it seems that Vanimo will be invested by land (3 divisions are marching from Aitape). I am very curious to see how Hollandia garrison will play... very curious.
However...we're at max alert here. My BBs are moving into position and the KB is warming its engines... 120 Frances are being moved to Biak area, along with 200 ablative armour escorts. 100 LBA Jills are ready to be transferred. a sub flotilla composed of 10 subs is moving to positions....

Estimate landing? within 2 days.

And his CVs? Yet to be seen. His CVEs are still at Normanton....[&:]

In Burma he's trying to flank me at Lashio. Luckly I have enough reserves now to be able to counter.

The Mariannas are growing stronger. 4 brand newly arrived regiments are now unloading at Pagan, Saipan, Tinian and Rota.


Lots of recon on the western Coast of Sumatra... but not a single movement in the I.O.....[8|]

[veji1]

Hmmm..Try to keep in mind that he might be trying to set up a trap for the KB. Not a CAP trap mind you to down planes, but a real trap where he lures the KB to strike and then rushes with his CVs for a close quarter fight.

[obvert]

Yes. You can live with 1:2 losses to his best airframes. If he wears down your service 3 planes though and then bombs, it gets tough. Interested to see how this plays out. [;)]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: veji1

Hmmm..Try to keep in mind that he might be trying to set up a trap for the KB. Not a CAP trap mind you to down planes, but a real trap where he lures the KB to strike and then rushes with his CVs for a close quarter fight.

Yes, i'm doing my best to look for his CVs. At the very same time I cannot simply run away everytime I see his CVs. It is true that my CVs are precious, but, sooner or later, i'll have to use them against his CVs once again.
Let's see Veji...hard to tell what to do now... for the moment i'm just moving into position...then we'll decide

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Yes. You can live with 1:2 losses to his best airframes. If he wears down your service 3 planes though and then bombs, it gets tough. Interested to see how this plays out. [;)]

Sure, that's why i'm keeping a good mix of SR1, SR2 and SR3 planes....in order to be able to last as long as possible. Mandalay is also a nest of AA... if he bombs he's not gonna find it pretty anyway

[GreyJoy]

So now, with only 2 months left to get to 1944, Japan is waiting for the real push forward by the allies. They have gathered a lot of forces and now my outer perimeter is ready to be attacked and broken.
I know I cannot stop him. Too many places to land. Too many forces to spare for him. The goal is clear btw... slow him down. The slowest he advances, the more time I will have to strengthen my inner perimeter and to allocate my forces in the back.
I already foresee a lot of para-drop landings in the DEI. I know he'll do that. He'll occupy some empty dots and start to make pressure on me. I cannot stop him everywhere, we know that. I don't have enough units to do it. I have to make constant choices and hope for the best, denying him the better bases and force him to follow the slowest route.

But, hey, it's nearly 1944 and i'm still here, fighting! that's already something in my book [:)] For sure we did better than Japan in RL so far... let's see if we can make to 1945 in a somehow decent shape.

[GreyJoy]

my best aces so far.