How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

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adamsolo
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by adamsolo »

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Distant worlds don't support micro managing fleets much. It is a rather tedious process to do a clean landing near the enemy for instance (they love to circle the targeted spot). Maybe if you give individual orders to fleet members...

To get the escort behavior you want, multiple fleet layers could be a good thing. And in more cases than this as well. One main fleet, and several sub fleets. You could tell the main fleet to "attack nasty spaceport", and then the subfleet of your escorts to "move over there".
You know, I did just that actually. I ended up having the "escort fleet" and the "frigate long range standoff fleet" when attacking a rival pirate space port. First fleet attacks patrols, or goes some place else, second goes after the pirate space port. The thing didn't work very well though. As my escorts had "All Weapons", eventually they headed to the space port as well, and died. The only way to avoid this, again, is to change the global design settings for a particular ship design, but then you're back into the situation where you need to constantly change it to adapt to a particular circumstance.

So, while divide to conquer is great, managing more than one fleet at once while attacking a single target creates an additional layer of complexity, where you have to instruct two fleets with consecutive commands instead of just one. It didn't work, but maybe that's something you improve with time.

So, I see that DW doesn't support fleets and combat micro much, like you say. Defense-wise, fleets seems to work very well. But when attacking, all hell breaks loose. I guess we'll have to live with that, for now.
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Bingeling
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by Bingeling »

This is a game that assumes that attacks are very point and click. "Attack that spaceport". The fleet does that. If you make a fleet of all capitals and some carriers, this works quite well. Especially if the carriers are heavily shielded and armored.

Once you have an opinion of how to attack stuff, micromanagement enters the scene.
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by adamsolo »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Adam,

Please do upload that save file for us per the instructions in the Tech Support forum and we will investigate. I'm guessing whatever you are seeing was the case in Legends as well. In terms of engagement stances, the main thing we did was try to make ships and fleets smarter about not engaging in "lost cause" battles like that. Since the area was worked on, it's possible we made some aspect of it worse while improving others.

Regards,

- Erik

I sent the save:

- "Space Sector Vigilants 2103-07-12__manual_fleet_disobeys_stance_attacks_pirate_base.zip"
- "Space Sector Vigilants 2103-07-12__manual_fleet_disobeys_stance_attacks_pirate_base.txt"
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adamsolo
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by adamsolo »

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

This is a game that assumes that attacks are very point and click. "Attack that spaceport". The fleet does that. If you make a fleet of all capitals and some carriers, this works quite well. Especially if the carriers are heavily shielded and armored.

Once you have an opinion of how to attack stuff, micromanagement enters the scene.

Well, this is the Age of Shadows now, remember? Pirates don't have the luxury of "all capitals and some carriers" ;) Pirate strongholds are still quite tough, and we have to live with escorts and frigates for most of the Age of Shadows game, because research is Very slow.

\Edit: And having "glass made" pirate bases/fortresses (the only way to boost research), destroyed in a blink of an eye (at the moment) doesn't help either.
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by Bingeling »

When the pirate bugs are sorted, I expect to see proper pirates again, not the wimpy bunch currently roaming the galaxy [:D] Human players are not the only ones hit by vulnerable structures.
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by elliotg »

Hi all

Just adding some thoughts to this: in Shadows we did improve the Assemble and Attack mission - fleets will now always properly sync before attacking when using this command. If some ships in a fleet have hyperdrives that charge up sooner (i.e. shorter time to initiate a jump) then they may arrive slightly earlier than other ships, but nothing too major.

I think we can probably work some more on beefing up engagement stances, and making them work more intuitively. So I'll take a look at that, but might not be until 3rd patch or so.

Thanks
Elliot
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by adamsolo »

ORIGINAL: elliotg

I think we can probably work some more on beefing up engagement stances, and making them work more intuitively. So I'll take a look at that, but might not be until 3rd patch or so.

Awesome. May I ask what are your thoughts on the possibility of a "do not engage" (whatever happens) stance? Would that be inline with your design vision? Or, is that something that you think would make sense, and it just didn't get in yet? I think it makes sense, and would be useful, but that's probably because of my playstyle (I like to micromanage my main fleets heavily). So, what do you (and others) think about this?
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feelotraveller
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by feelotraveller »

The 'do not engage' option already exists, at least as a default stance.  Unfortunately you can only apply it empire wide at the moment.  [:'(]
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by adamsolo »

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

The 'do not engage' option already exists, at least as a default stance.  Unfortunately you can only apply it empire wide at the moment.  [:'(]

Ok. With your help, feelotraveller (and by re-reading Resan's and Bingeling's posts - particularly when Resan says "Wouldn't it work to set the "Default Engagement Stance" to something passive?" and Bingeling says "The general case overrides the special case"), I finally found a way to keep my fleets from disobeying my stance orders when playing fully manual. It's not intuitive, as Elliot said above (and now I understand what he meant), but I just tested it, and it works. And, I think I may have found a bug on the process.

The solution is to be found on "Empire Settings->Default Engagement Stances". The game's default (after you install it) is "Engage system targets" for all types of missions (escort, patrol, others), if I'm not mistaken. What happens is that, even if you set a fleet's stance in-game to, let's say, "engage when attacked", when some event happens (an enemy attacks your ships for example), the game reverts the stance to the one set on the global "Default Engagement Stances" settings. So, the game overrides the manual controlled fleet's stance from "engage when attacked" (what I wanted them to do and keep doing) to "engage system targets" (the default I had on the settings).

So, the "bug", I think, is that the game overrides the manual-set stance to the default global one after some event happens, in the example case above, when someone attacked me, the fleet's stance reverted to the game's default (engage system targets), and so, some "rogue" ships decided to go "kamikaze", not because of my orders but because that was what the game has instructed them to do. In my opinion, because I like to have full control of things, I think the game shouldn't override the manually-controlled fleet's stances unless the fleet is set to automated.

So, the solution to achieve a "do not engage" stance (not a specific option at the moment), to force your fleets to follow a stance religiously, is to set the "Empire Settings->Default Engagement Stances" to "no default stance" and then set each fleet to the stance you prefer for each. So, while a "do not engage" stance is not available in the game yet, there is an indirect way to achieve it.

But, please be advised that this solution is for people who like to micromanage their fleets, who like to have full control and play manual. If you like to leave all your fleets automated, you should probably leave the default engagement settings to "engage system targets" or "engage nearby enemies", as the game currently has as default. But, even if you leave your defensive fleets automated, I imagine that you'd want to manually control your attack fleet(s) still, and for that case the only solution I have for you, to have full control over the stances, is to set the "Empire Settings->Default Engagement Stances" to "no default stance".

So, a simple solution, in my view, would be NOT to revert a manually-controlled fleet's stance to the default (as the game does now), but to keep it at the stance the player decided in the first place, and keep that stance religiously. When/if the player decides to re-automate the fleet later, that fleet may assume the default engagement stance by then, but not (never) when it's still in manual mode.

Sorry for the long post, but I shared the OP's frustration of not being able to have full control of my (attack) fleets, and witnessing my fleets going rogue. I hope this has helped him. This discussion has certainly helped me have more fun with the game, and certainly understand it better.
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by Erik Rutins »

Yes - I think we made fleet control very flexible and customizable in Legends, but between the stances, postures and design settings a lot of folks are confused now. Our main goal when we have time to do another pass on this will be to simplify and make the controls more intuitive without removing player flexibility.

We'll check on that override of manual settings.

Regards,

- Erik
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by Speeder »

Erik, another behavior that I saw that really annoyed me...

I went to conquer someone system with two planets (actually it was someone homeworld, and the third strongest homeworld in the game)

I DID conquered the homeworld, and decided to quickly get my troops back to use somewhere else...

I order my fleet to load troops.

What they do?

Well, one of them (only one) jumped to a enemy defense platform (on the other planet that I did not conquered yet).

It started to get pounded, so I had to interrupt the others and attempt to save the suicidal guy...

What they do? Each one teleport to a different place, and one of them decide to escape, and another don't...

In the end I had to select the ships without selecting them as a fleet, and tell to them all attack the same defense platform.

AFTER killing all remaing bases on the system, the ships finally let me load my troops :/
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by Erik Rutins »

Please upload a save file.
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by Bingeling »

I don't think there is a universally good solution to stances.

If there is a "do not engage" it is a special case solution. For the times you want to hang around in a system with enemies present. The trap here is that as Adam Solo pointed out, stances love to reset themselves, but this can of course be solved.

But once my fleet leaves that system, I would almost always want them to revert to default stance (kill stuff). Ships "sitting around" are bad enough when it comes to reacting to hostiles, without a "do nothing" stance sticking that forces them not to react when they finally wake up...

I guess the closest thing to useful would be a "do nothing stance" that sticks until the fleet is given a new order. After that it reverts to default behavior and you need to engage it again if they should "do nothing" after moving.
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by Erik Rutins »

We're going to do another pass through stances and postures once the Shadows-specific issues are addressed. All input and suggestions are welcome towards that goal.
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by Speeder »

By the way, I did stumbled into the previously mentioned bug...

I return to playing the game I mentioned before, and while loading from a planet I told the fleet to attack only when attacked back...

And they still went suicidal...

Then I paid more attention, and noticed that as soon I gave tem any order, or they finished the current order, the defaults kicked in again.
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by feelotraveller »

Like Adam I would like to be able to give each ship an enduring (or default) stance which continues from mission to mission unless I change it.  Even better would be to be able to specify the default stances for each ship for each type of mission (from the ships and bases screen, allowing the empire settings to be the default for new ships?).  This would allow customising the stance for different ships/fleets.  For example it would be good to be able to have my raider fleets maintain an 'engage system targets' stance while one resupply ship maintains an 'engage when attacked' stance and another an 'attack nearby targets' stance. 
 
(I generally play fully manual so have no idea how this might interact with the other components of ship/fleet automation.  Currently I set all default stances to 'engage when attacked' as a lesser of evils, so that my ships are neither lame ducks nor are they kamikazes.  It does mean that at times my defence fleets fail to react and my attack fleets can end up dispersed or in the interstellar void.) 
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by Darkspire »

ORIGINAL: adamsolo

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I have no issues with keeping manual control.
I, on the other hand, have many issues keeping manual control. I have a save that I can supply where it's Impossible to keep a fleet on a designated spot (at least I can't), irrespective of the posture/stance, range I choose. After a while, probably because they're attacked by enemies, some elements of the fleet leave the rendezvous point and decide to assault the enemy space port on the other side of the system. I tried defend/minimal range/only when attacked and other passive combinations to no effect.

Probably a silly question but have you looked in the options screen? Click Empire Settings, the default AI stances for ships are in there, never tried them myself as I do not have the problem but there is one for other that might be the one you are looking for.

Here is how I control fleets for engagement.

In the options screen click Empire Settings change the refuel and regroup settings both to 90. I do this for every game so once set you can forget about it.
Lets say I have two fleets, Attack 01 (attack ships) and Invade 01 (transport ships).
Attack 01 is on the 1 key and Invade 01 is on the 0 key
I now select the enemy system that I wish to conquer by zooming out just to the point that I can click on the system and it becomes highlighted with a circle around it. Now click on the info box to center the view, next I send Attack 01, press 1 and right click just outside that system circle, Attack 01 should now have a 'Move to ...' command. Now do the same for Invade 01. Both fleets are now 'parked' outside the system you wish to attack and will not move (the fuel setting in the options screen helps with this as well)
Now that I have my fleets parked I select the system again that they are parked out side and check the info box for the planet, click on the planet to center it and press the home key to go direct to the planet. If you have researched Proximity sensors you should be able to see any defenses the planet may have, press 1 for Attack 01 and right hand on the planet or any base, defensive base and select 'Prepare and Attack ...'Attack 01 will now move to attack that target while Invade 01 waits, once the once the planet is 90% cleared of defenses I press 0 for Invade 01 and right click the planet, press 1 again to select Attack 01, just to make sure the way is clear for the troops.
Rinse and repeat for the rest of the galaxy. Once you get used to doing it this way you can gauge how close you can park your fleets before they start to move to intercept other enemies in a system and also how long to leave it before calling in the transport fleet for invasion, one other thing to note is once the invasion is underway issue an order for your transport fleet to orbit the planet you are attacking and check there engagement order is 'engage when attacked' that does a fairly reasonable job of keeping them out of trouble.
The best thing about this method of control with fleets is that you can order multiple fleets to sit outside systems, I quite often in mid game invade 8-10 systems at the same time, the fact that the fleets can be parked up just outside a system means that you can send them and not worry about them moving, while your fleets are moving into position you can do other things, then once war is underway you can hit the enemy at multiple fronts and it loses systems on multiple fronts all at the same time, as the war weariness is always adding up this way ensures a clean decisive victory in the shortest possible time.

Darkspire
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by adamsolo »

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

ORIGINAL: adamsolo

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I have no issues with keeping manual control.
I, on the other hand, have many issues keeping manual control. I have a save that I can supply where it's Impossible to keep a fleet on a designated spot (at least I can't), irrespective of the posture/stance, range I choose. After a while, probably because they're attacked by enemies, some elements of the fleet leave the rendezvous point and decide to assault the enemy space port on the other side of the system. I tried defend/minimal range/only when attacked and other passive combinations to no effect.

The best thing about this method of control with fleets is that you can order multiple fleets to sit outside systems, I quite often in mid game invade 8-10 systems at the same time, the fact that the fleets can be parked up just outside a system means that you can send them and not worry about them moving, while your fleets are moving into position you can do other things, then once war is underway you can hit the enemy at multiple fronts and it loses systems on multiple fronts all at the same time, as the war weariness is always adding up this way ensures a clean decisive victory in the shortest possible time.

Darkspire
Thanks for your reply Darkspire. I see what you mean with the "park fleets outside systems" tactic, I've done that myself, and the fleets don't move, it's true. However, as I explained some posts before, there should be a way to keep fleets immobile even when inside enemy systems (in any place in the galaxy really). I did my best to explain the issue here.

The problem in my view, at the moment, is that the game overrides stances and applies the default stance set on the Empire settings that you've pointed out. That shouldn't happen with manually controlled fleets. Your manual fleets should keep the stance of your choice religiously at all times, until one of two things happen: a) you choose another stance; b) you decide to automate the fleet.

So, if you choose the "attack only when attacked" stance, the fleet should keep the stance no matter what, even if the default stance is "attack system targets". The game shouldn't override the manually set stance on a manually controlled fleet. I think that's the way it should work for manual fleets.
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by Bingeling »

I must admit, though, that I find only one good reason to assemble a fleet inside an enemy system. And that is to bait the opposing AI into stupidity. If the assembled does not shoot back it limits this a tad, but...

The only thing you lose by assembling in dead space outside the system (apart form an easy target to aim fleets at), is some in system scouting, and the possibility to kill defending ships before you engage the static structures.

In such systems defending ships should sit beneath the spaceport, or at least inside defensive bases, and only strike at close targets, or head out to kill carriers of the attackers that hang back away from other ships. This game is lacking in fleet tactics, though, and that is mostly just fine. It has other stuff instead.
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

Post by adamsolo »

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I must admit, though, that I find only one good reason to assemble a fleet inside an enemy system. And that is to bait the opposing AI into stupidity. If the assembled does not shoot back it limits this a tad, but...
I imagine that the issue is not only when assembling attack fleets on enemy systems. While defending, if a manual fleet is set to "engage nearby targets", because what they're defending is more important than what's happening in the rest of the system, that fleet should not get its stance overridden to "system targets" if that's the global default stance on the Empire Settings. And, you may want the global default to be "system targets"! Because that's the global default for your all empire.

Do you see the issue? The defaults are global, the game resets manual stances to the global automatically. You may want the global to be more active than passive but still want your manual fleets to keep the stances. I guess I'm not the only one who would like my fleets to keep the stance I designate. If that's easy to implement I think it would make sense, unless that provokes some conflict with the fleet's automation system that I'm not aware of. Because again, I like to keep my fleets, at least the main ones, in manual. You may have a different preference, of course.
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