Private economy no longer works effectively

[MartialDoctor]

So, I have given Age of Shadows a go and I've seen some nice improvements. However, the way the AI handles the private economy has been changed, and to it's detriment. I've attached two pictures to illustrate this.

Prior to Age of Shadows, the AI would build freighters when it had the money. This worked well with the economic system since a lot of money comes from trading. However, now, it is not buying any freighters despite the fact that it can and should. You'll see that my overall money has been going up despite being "negative."

[MartialDoctor]

Notice, now, in the next one, the money in the private sector has increased, due to trade through my stations. However, the AI fails to buy new freighters, which are badly needed, even though the funds are there and the need is there.

[MartialDoctor]

So, in summary, I'm not sure what was changed but the old way the AI private sector worked is actually superior to the way the AI handles it now. At least, in the way it handles this particular situation.

[BigWolfChris]

My guess is because 'the books' show a negative cashflow, they won't build anything more thinking it can't be afforded

IIRC, the old method was, if it was needed and there was spare cash it would get queued, which would sometimes lead to excessive negative cashflow and eventually causing the private sector to crash really hard

[peddroelm]

Interesting peculiar case ..

It appears the decision is made only on guaranteed/predictable income sources (colony output/maintenance costs) and not on Occasional/unpredictable/irregular cash injections coming from (? trade ) ... Might be working as intended ...

Still not particularly hard to work around ... You need to get the private cash-flow positive ...

Short term
- Lowering colony taxes would help (+ it would also boost colony growth which would eventually further increase private sector income in the long run) ...

Long term
- Obsolete your current mine/gas mine designs (biggest maintenance drain) and design new ones with lower maintenance costs (if possible)

[Constantine XI]

I actually had the opposite problem. Early on the private sector built a bunch of ships, but they didn't have much to do and ended up forming a neat little parking lot near my home world. Not sure why multiple freighters were built when they wouldn't have any work. Once I got some more mining up and running, things seemed to work fine and all the parked ships went to work. Since then the AI has done fine keeping up with more freighters and miners and transports.

Looks like it is situational, so should be tweakable with updates.

[Bingeling]

It is the cashflow for sure. And the AI is very "formula" dependent on some weird stuff when it comes to civilians. A whole freaking lot of freighters to serve one early mine, for instance. But at least the state get hold of some money that way...

Apart from that, is that harsh homeworld on very hard or something like that?

[Erik Rutins]

Hi MartialDoctor,

I think this first post is a tremendous over-generalization. Going from the AI not doing what you expect it to in that instance to say that "the Private economy no longer works effectively" is a heck of a leap.

I can say that after hundreds of Shadows games, I'm not seeing this problem. My private sector is actually working better than ever.

What I would very much like is if you would upload a save file of your situation so that we can see, in this case, exactly what is going on and decide if we need to adjust the AI to better handle this case or not.

Regards,

- Erik

[MartialDoctor]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi MartialDoctor,

I think this first post is a tremendous over-generalization. Going from the AI not doing what you expect it to in that instance to say that "the Private economy no longer works effectively" is a heck of a leap.

Yeah, my apologies on the title. I tend to jump on something when I get frustrated and then realized I should have titled it differently. It should have been titled "Confused about how the private economy works now" or something along those lines...

And I will tinker around with it more to see what happens.

Edit: I will add a save file so you guys can see. It's a fairly typical situation when playing on a Harsh homeworld setup.

[MartialDoctor]

ORIGINAL: peddroelm
Still not particularly hard to work around ... You need to get the private cash-flow positive ...

Short term
- Lowering colony taxes would help (+ it would also boost colony growth which would eventually further increase private sector income in the long run) ...

Long term
- Obsolete your current mine/gas mine designs (biggest maintenance drain) and design new ones with lower maintenance costs (if possible)

This is in the beginning of the game and, as you can see, it's not really possible to lower them much more. Although, yes, I do see your point.

And, yes, possibly changing up the default design may work. Although, as I said, the private economy is making money quite well; it's just not showing up as it's not in the "steady" money making aspect.

[MartialDoctor]

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

It is the cashflow for sure. And the AI is very "formula" dependent on some weird stuff when it comes to civilians. A whole freaking lot of freighters to serve one early mine, for instance. But at least the state get hold of some money that way...

Apart from that, is that harsh homeworld on very hard or something like that?

Close, Harsh homeworld, on extreme, basic technology.

[Raap]

Not sure how the private sector calculates the need for new ships, nor whether it makes buying decisions based on cash on hand, stable income, average income, or some mix.

Though another potential fix you could use would be to simply scrap some of your mining bases. As you've no doubt seen, though those are made from your cash their upkeep is paid by the civilian sector. It's possible you( or your constructors) have crippled them by building too many mining bases too soon.

[peddroelm]

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

This is in the beginning of the game and, as you can see, it's not really possible to lower them much more. Although, yes, I do see your point.
...

Especially since it is the beginning of the game you need to drop taxes hard (NEED all the population growth modifiers you can get ...) AI is cranky about negative civilian cash-flow .. You on the other hand shouldn't be cranky moving that to negative state cash flow ...And getting periodic cash influxes from the now thriving private sector to stay afloat...

All the while your population is growing and your economy (private and state with it) ...

[ASHBERY76]

The economy cannot make money from thin air.The harse starting planet with a high 50% maintenance gov is not a good match.

[MartialDoctor]

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

The economy cannot make money from thin air.The harse starting planet with a high 50% maintenance gov is not a good match.

You missed the point. The economy IS making money. It's just making it from trading, which doesn't show up in the statistics for net cash flow.

In terms of a "good match", I make the settings to be a challenge and for role playing purposes.

[MartialDoctor]

Eric,

I have uploaded the save file if you all would like to take a look. I have termed it "Economy not building freighters."

[Raap]

The problem is, your private sector can't count on 'bonus' income. It will need to use steady income when deciding whether or not to build more ships, otherwise it'll be just like in the real world; the economy will crash, 'cept there won't be a bailout. I think that's WAD. I think your problem is too many mining bases too soon.

[ASHBERY76]

The private economy A.I only looks at cashflow.It has the same issues with building ships for war.It might have 100k but does not build warships..It was the same in Legends.

[Bingeling]

I think Erik is a bit too edgy on exaggerations these days... They are probably a bit stressful with the new release and some genuine technical issues and bugs.

Apart from that I agree that the civilian sector works pretty well in this game.

This game is on the hardest possible difficulty setting. I would say: adapt. If you don't want to adapt, play easier difficulties. A good start on this difficulty is to think very carefully about every design and expenditure. You have too many mines compared to what the civilians can maintain. And you can't exactly afford to drop taxes to help the civilians either. Welcome to extreme, very harsh [:D]

I think one problem here could be that the AI needs to improve the cash usage for civilians the same it has for the state. Consider money on and, as cashflow is not a "true" measure.

[peddroelm]

In the short starting strategy I wrote for other newbies -> I pointed towards the "Civilian Cash-flow" (and not how much they have on hand) as the main indicator to "go get more stuff" ... They have healthy positive cash-flow they can take on buying extra infrastructure and maintenance costs ....
"Civilian Cash-flow" margin is low -> time to cool it down , drop taxes , work the approval modifiers -> your colony isn't big enough to support expansion (extra costs) yet ...