Barbarosa 41 revised

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what the Odessa area looks like now:

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the T19 front lines

[sPzAbt653]

I don't know about you but I think the supply situation is rediculous and makes the scenario unplayable. So using the TOAW editor I defined a new event that would increase the supply for the Axis to just over 30

Germans at start supply level is 23, Soviets is 20. So you just changed the Germans at start to 53, while leaving the Soviets at 20. [:(] Don't forget poor Elmer, he should get some ice cream with his cake, too !

I agree with Shunwick in regards to not using 3.4 Rules with an old scenario. Of course, since you are doing a mod you are probably considering this as playtesting the scenario for 3.4 Rules.

Someone mentioned Artillery CounterBattery issues if you are using 3.5. I would recommend using this old scenario with 3.4 (but as you are on the Beta Team, I guess you are testing for 3.5 issues), but you may be using the version without the Artillery issue as we discussed that at some point prior to this thread (3.5.52).

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Germans at start supply level is 23, Soviets is 20. So you just changed the Germans at start to 53, while leaving the Soviets at 20. [:(] Don't forget poor Elmer, he should get some ice cream with his cake, too !

Yeah, I can see it's over the top in supply for the Axis now. I'm going to have to modify that event to add only say 15 instead of 30. I'm
planning on playtesting the Soviet side too so I'm probably going to have to bump their supply up too. And I'm using the Color Code
rule in attack and movement so it's not like they didn't get any of the good stuff too. This playtesting is a blast and I feel a new sense of
enpowerment now that I can modify my own scenarios. I estimate another couple of days w/ Barbarosa and then on to another round of
D-Day to the Elbe.

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Germans at start supply level is 23, Soviets is 20. So you just changed the Germans at start to 53, while leaving the Soviets at 20. [:(] Don't forget poor Elmer, he should get some ice cream with his cake, too !

Yeah, I can see it's over the top in supply for the Axis now. I'm going to have to modify that event to add only say 15 instead of 30. I'm
planning on playtesting the Soviet side too so I'm probably going to have to bump their supply up too. And I'm using the Color Code
rule in attack and movement so it's not like they didn't get any of the good stuff too. This playtesting is a blast and I feel a new sense of
enpowerment now that I can modify my own scenarios. I estimate another couple of days w/ Barbarosa and then on to another round of
D-Day to the Elbe.

Larry,

The soviet supply is (sort of) adequate. It is the stupid FSDEs of Soviet formations that is the real killer for Soviet supply. Don't forget that you need an FSDE of 75 just to get half of what the supply system is delivering to a hex.

The FSDE for the Soviets is so bad that if you take a shagged out 33/1 (cherry red - readiness & supply) soviet unit and put in in a supply depot with plenty of supplies (30+) (that is: right on top of a supply point and don't move it) it will take that unit 6 months to rearm, refuel, and rechow (IIRC 4 months if you have an HQ in attendance). That is longer than scenario lasts. You can probably imagine what Stalin would have thought if this was the case.

I always had this image of an extremely drunk Russian armed with a teaspoon trying to refill all the tanks in Soviet division and who, even then, spends most of his time passed out on the ground.

Best wishes,
Steve

[sPzAbt653]

LOL, Soviet FSDE of 18-20% !! The Germans have 65%, wow ! (sarcasm there).

I've grown into not liking the FSDE, and for the past couple years have been setting it to 100% for all formations. There are situations where it comes in handy for selected formations to be less than 100%. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to me to have it less than 100%. If you want the Soviets to get 3 supply each turn, make the FSSL 5 or 6, whatever it takes. Why make the FSSL 20 and then add in the FSDE of 20% ? Its extra work for nothing.

[Telumar]

FSDE makes sense in some situations, in others not. I.e. if i were to design a Barbarossa scenario i would have the German FSDE at 100, the Romanians and other Axis allies at say 70 or 60 etc. to reflect the different/better/worse logistics. But if one has a more homogenic force like the Red Army there is not much sense in setting it to another level than 100 across the board. One could differ between guards armies and regular armies etc, but not much.

In Anzio i have the German formations at 100% FSDE except for their artillery formations which i set to a FSDE of 80 to reflect ammunition shortages. Or the Flak units with 65% which is meant to limit its use in ground combat to a more realistic level (at least what i consider more realistic).

One could argue that it takes less effort logistically to (re)supply an infantry regiment than it takes to (re)supply a tank battalion but that's another matter..

[shunwick]

I remember an old post by Norm explaining why all air forces should always have 100% FSDE unless there is a REALLY, REALLY good reason why it should be less.

Forget what is said about it in the manual. The reason that FSDE exists was to be able to vary supply for some formations that historically received less supply than other formations as Stefan notes above. This was before 3.4 introduced variable supply points which adds a complication. There no earthly reason to move it off of 100 unless you have a specific reason for throttling it down.

Inappropriate FSDEs are the biggest killers of supply. Cherryreditus - the curse of a lot of TOAW scenarios. Oh Lord, I can feel another rant coming on... better stop now.

Best wishes,
Steve

PS: I used to have a nifty spreadsheet that helped with the setting of Force Supply Level and Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency. It would need to tidied up. I will have a look to see if I still have it.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

PS: I used to have a nifty spreadsheet that helped with the setting of Force Supply Level and Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency. It would need to tidied up. I will have a look to see if I still have it.

From the old COW Manual? That can be downloaded as a pdf from Gamesquad btw.

Inappropriate FSDEs are the biggest killers of supply. Cherryreditus - the curse of a lot of TOAW scenarios. Oh Lord, I can feel another rant coming on... better stop now.

No need for ranting about this when (if) 3.5 will be released. It was/is planned to introduce a new supply state: overextended.

[shunwick]

Stefan,

No, if that is the same as in the help menu then that is fatally flawed. I managed to find the spreadsheet and attach it below for anyone who is interested. It will calculate how many turns to fully resupply a shagged out unit under varying conditions and, hopefully, it is not too confusing. It is an excel spreadsheet but because the forum software does not allow zips to be uploaded, I have renamed it .txt. Download it and rename to a .zip.

Oh, and I love a good rant. It clears the tubes out. [;)]

Best wishes,
Steve

[larryfulkerson]

Thanks for the spreadsheet, Steve dude. You are a prince.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

Stefan,

No, if that is the same as in the help menu then that is fatally flawed. I managed to find the spreadsheet and attach it below for anyone who is interested. It will calculate how many turns to fully resupply a shagged out unit under varying conditions and, hopefully, it is not too confusing. It is an excel spreadsheet but because the forum software does not allow zips to be uploaded, I have renamed it .txt. Download it and rename to a .zip.

Oh, and I love a good rant. It clears the tubes out. [;)]

Best wishes,
Steve

Great! May i host it on my blog? Of course with full credits/reference and such.

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

ORIGINAL: shunwick

Stefan,

No, if that is the same as in the help menu then that is fatally flawed. I managed to find the spreadsheet and attach it below for anyone who is interested. It will calculate how many turns to fully resupply a shagged out unit under varying conditions and, hopefully, it is not too confusing. It is an excel spreadsheet but because the forum software does not allow zips to be uploaded, I have renamed it .txt. Download it and rename to a .zip.

Oh, and I love a good rant. It clears the tubes out. [;)]

Best wishes,
Steve

Great! May i host it on my blog? Of course with full credits/reference and such.

No problem. Host away.

I built it a couple of years ago but never released it. I think it was because I was worried that the instructions were not clear enough. I always meant to get around to redoing it in some fashion but then completely forgot about it.

Best wishes,
Steve

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what Moscow looks like in turn 20:

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the front lines in T21:

[larryfulkerson]

If anybody would like to try this scenario for themselves you can download it from the attachment below and then rename the file
by clipping off the ".txt" from the end so that it's a zip file.
So the name of the file "lgf_Barbarosa 41.zip.txt" would become lgf_Barbarosa 41.zip

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the Leningrad situation and the supply state right now. I'm not complaining about the supply and I'm just waiting for my boys to
hit the magic 100% readiness before I attempt to storm the Soviet defenses, not least because they ( the defenses ) are formidable.
I'm thinking about doing Leningrad and Moscow one at a time and shipping all the arty to the appropriate target so that all available
arty is all at one target at a time. I'm not sure how that would work, I've never done it and I'm thinking about trying it now. I'll let you know
how it works out.

[larryfulkerson]

If I'm going to activate the eastern rail line leading to Moscow so that it conveys supply, well, it looks like I'm going to have to push back
the Soviets in one corner of the Leningrad metroplex. And the Soviet occupants of that hex look relatively hefty. So I have to balance
the men and equipment that I'm going to loose and gauge whether that's worth putting supply on that one rail leading to Moscow. Right
off the top of my head without doing the numbers, I'm guessing it's not worth it. So I'll put that little project off until after some more turns
or the circumstances changes whichever occurs first.

[larryfulkerson]

I've got some Special Forces dudes sneaking up on Moscow from the north

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the view of the Moscow area in T22. The Special Forces dudes are being rounded up by the Soviet reserve. I guess I mis-
calculated on the Soviets deployed in the rear areas and they are paying for it. But on the other hand I found a hole in the Soviet
lines and I'm pushing people through it. Moscow is looking possible.