Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the Mediterranean

Raverdave · Post by **Raverdave** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:44 pm

And there are also aircraft like this!

But you would only get this type in very very limited numbers (16!) and only if you were still in the fight after september '43.

And then there is this ! The Do 217.

Raverdave · Post by **Raverdave** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:48 pm

And you would also get REAL nightfighters!

Aztek · Post by **Aztek** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:07 pm

Doesnt anyone remember Bomb alley? pardon me if I missed an earlier post that mentioned it.

Along with Guadalcanal those 2 SSI games wasted many many hours of my study time in college

From keeping Malta supplied to keeping the Africa Korps supplied the game was constant action and bloody as hell. Huge allied convoys busting through the gauntlett of Axis airpower pushing to Malta losing dozens of ships along the way.

The Italian navy getting pummeled by the Brits and German u boats mauling british Cvs and BBs. it was all there and it showed that the med would be an excellent choice for UV game engine.

The Axis faced with the dilemma of invading Malta or reinforceing the DAK.

The options are endless.

Snigbert · Post by **Snigbert** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:17 pm

That night fighter looks like it has a giant grenade pin on the underbelly of the fuselage. What happens when you pull the pin?

sprior · Post by **sprior** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:03 pm

Most of the British supplies took the long route round the Horn. The convoy battles fought by the RN were to push supplies through to Malta. The only convoy pushed the length of the Med was Operation Tiger in (IIRC) early 41 when a convoy of tanks (the Tiger Cubs) when Rommel was at Alem Hiafa (?).

The north-south convoy battles were minor skirmishes involving Force K (2 cruisers and accompanying destroyers).

I would love to see this game (from the Italian invasion of Egypt up to the invasion od Sicily - maybe the Allies win by landing a viable invasion force on or before the historical date for Husky). but how do you force the Italian Navy to behave as badly as it did? Maybe inordinately high VPs for the loss of Italian ships?

Just some thoughts.

Cap Mandrake · Post by **Cap Mandrake** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:56 am

Wow...that Italian fighter and the Littorio class BB's were beautiful!!!! I have a feeling its like owning a Ferrari though, an aesthetic masterpiece and a good way to get chicks, but the reliability is Cr** and it costs $400 for an oil change.

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:32 am

The potential of the french Navy in Vichy hands facinates me. the Richilieu at Dakar and Jean Bart at Casablanca - although not completed- gave a good account of themselves. In fact the Torch invasion was in doubt when the French ships escaped from Casablanca and tried to get to the transports. Degaulle's invasion attempt at Dakar was foiled. At the other side of the Med, the Germans forced a coup of the Iraqi gov't forcing the Brits to invade and take it over to preserve their oil (North Africa had no developed oil at that time). the Med/African arena was a very busy theater. It could be developed into a game.

Snigbert · Post by **Snigbert** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 12:01 pm

I've seen the scars on the USS Massachusetts which resulted from her engagement with one of those French Battleships during Torch. I'd say it was about 10-15% Sys damage and no floatation damage due to it's being high above the waterline.

SoulBlazer · Post by **SoulBlazer** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:48 am

But what time scale would we be talking about here? I guess you COULD do the whole WWII but it seems to make better sence to have the earilest campaigns start after the Fall of France and to end after the end of 1943, when the Allies had pretty much won total control of the Med.

Sure, I'd love to command Operation Torch and send Patton driving through Africa.

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:17 am

Originally posted by SoulBlazer
But what time scale would we be talking about here? I guess you COULD do the whole WWII but it seems to make better sence to have the earilest campaigns start after the Fall of France and to end after the end of 1943, when the Allies had pretty much won total control of the Med.

Sure, I'd love to command Operation Torch and send Patton driving through Africa.

Well, it being the UV system, there'd have to be the one day turn option (yeah, I know, I'm an idiot, I'll never finish a single game of WITP as long as I live and I'm asking for another monster - still, there's not much else to do here in the institution, eating our nuts, saving our raisins for Sunday ...).

Seriously, I think it's a great setup. It might even turn the UV perception on its head and make short scenarios more popular than full campaigns (the short, sharp fights centered on the Malta convoys being the primary example). Multiple campaigns (including "mini-campaigns") seem likely, too, with starting times like:

-Outbreak of the war, September, 1939 (suppose Italy had come on board from the very beginning)
-Italy declares war on France, June, 1940 (historical, with variant campaigns based on different historical circumstances)
-Crete (what more need I say?)
-Afrika Korps and Desert Rats, March, 1941 (UV scenarios delete portions of the theater for detailed treatment of one aspect of the fighting: how about ignoring events in Europe - except as they have an effect on the North Africa campaign - and focusing on the desert war and associated naval and air operations, including Malta and resupply of Axis forces)
-Torch (one word says it all)
-Husky (ditto)
-Avalanche (ditto)

Various ahistorical campaigns suggest themselves, as well. For example:

-France reneges on Polish sovereignty (France is neutral in 1940, but enters the war later)
-England and France say "no" to German and Italian aggression, 1936 (in response to Italy's attack on Ethiopia and Hitler's re-militarization of the Rhineland, war begins with no one prepared)

The heart of the game for me, though, would be the historically-based campaign running from Italian entry into the war in mid 1940 through Italian defeat in 1944 (or earlier or never happening, depending on game events, in which case, there would have to be a fixed "game over" date).

Political and other-theater war events affecting the Mediterranean would have to be modeled (and treated pretty thoroughly, I think). By point of comparison, such things are usually handled in paper-and-cardboard strategic simulations with random variant draws using "DRM" continuums ("on a roll of 6-9 on a 10-sided die, Germany and Russia declare war on each other in August, 1940. +2 to this die roll if ... -1 to this die roll if ..." - "Unusually mild winter allows Wehrmacht greater success on Russian front. On a roll of 0-4, ...). Computer simulations tend to hide all this rigmarole and present the situation and outcomes in more sophisticated ways, of course. The bottom line is that reinforcements, replacements, and required force withdrawals would be uncertain to a degree, and this would add a very interesting "wild card" effect.

As has been suggested, Italian command incompetence would have to be treated. Do I hear "leadership values?" Is this a chance to make "naval HQs" actually have a function? Variable German fuel release to the theater would be part of it, too (this could be variable based on successes or failures elsewhere - suppose a major German breakthrough on the southern front in Russia resulting in capture of the Caucasus oil fields ... even more tantalizing, suppose a Rommel breakthrough in Egypt leading to the same result ...)

One last comment in respectful response to an earlier post: yes, this campaign would show air and naval forces acting in support of a land campaign. That's what air and naval forces do, even in UV. You can motor around the lake and fly over the island in the middle, but, until your land forces have taken the ground, it has all been for nothing.

C'mon, boys, gimme this sucker ...

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:24 am

Originally posted by Veer
Essentially I'm talking about a hypothetical Operation Sealion.

I like it. I like it a lot. Don't go and hide.

I think that the ground combat part can be more sophisticated, though. The German first lift was only about 3+ divisions, even in their most ambitious plan. Most British defenses would have been pretty static, with only a small mobile component. The whole thing, if the landing had taken place, would have lived or died on the beaches and in the ports.

You talk about a game where mine warfare would be vital!

Yoo-hoo! Veer! Come back, Veer!

Cap Mandrake · Post by **Cap Mandrake** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:42 am

Whoa...I have that very same Shane poster in my room!!!

LargeSlowTarget · Post by **LargeSlowTarget** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 6:25 pm

Originally posted by Snigbert
I've seen the scars on the USS Massachusetts which resulted from her engagement with one of those French Battleships during Torch. I'd say it was about 10-15% Sys damage and no floatation damage due to it's being high above the waterline.

Some nitpicking here. From my visit to "Big Mamie" I recall that Jean Bart scored no hits in this engagement. Actually Mamie was hit by an 8-inch shell fired by a shore battery which penetrated the main deck and exploded in a berthing space - but because the crew was at battle stations the room was empty and there were no casualties. Of course the room was wrecked, but this had nil effect on systems or battle efficiency. Big Mamie suffered another hit on the quarterdeck area by what seems to have been an AA shell exploding in mid-air above the deck, some splinters did scratch off paint and left scars on the superstructure. Again, no casualties or system damage.

So 10-15% sys damage appear a bit high. I agree on no floatation damage, though. Interestingly, it appears that the hole in the main deck wasn't patched up with steel, but just planked over with wood!

Attached is a picture I've taken of the pierced main deck section on display aboard Big Mamie.

Buchon · Post by **Buchon** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:29 pm

I'll like a Med game. It's my neighbourhood!!!

I'm not really sure about UV system ruling properly, specially for naval distancies and ground combat (armored tactics?); and of course, there should be included many political "what if": Spain, French Vichy, Turkey and even Italy.
I think it was mostly a naval battle (and air battle), facing the British a very delicated situation, with three main bases: Gibraltar, Malta and Suez. If only one of this is captured, they are going to be kicked out of the Med...uummm...there's a bloody battle over the horizon.

Sure, I'll buy it, but, by the moment, I must capture Lunga.

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 9:03 pm

What if Franco decided to go Axis? How long would Gibralter have stayed British? What if the Italians successfully defended Eritrea and Italian Somalia_ then the Suez would have been cut off.

Buchon · Post by **Buchon** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 9:15 pm

Well. on that time Spain was a devasted country,with people dying from starvation and misery...
... but just think on german troops attacking Gibraltar, and invading Portugal, included the atlantic islands: Cabo Verde, Azores... Or Canarias itsself.

A really big "what if"

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 9:32 pm

True Spanish troops wouldn't have been involved necessarily. didn't Hitler ask Franco if he could pass through Spain but Franco refused?

Buchon · Post by **Buchon** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 11:22 pm

This question is still difficult to answer.

During the dictatorship it were said that Franco refused Hitler preasures to enter the war, even to allow german troops march through Spain. Both of them met personally on October, 1940; and on February 1941 Mussolini, requested by Hitler, also spoke with Franco. It is supposed that Franco refused, preserving the country of another war, due the general internal situation and the obvious weakness of the army.

Nowadays is known that Franco presented a petition that included, besides material an military aid, the ocupation of many French territories in North Africa (I don't remenber the hole list, but sure Morocco was the first one). Germany was involved in a war and didn't have the resources to built up a third country and, over all, Hitler was not disposed to give Spain the french posesions. Too high price for so little help.

May be we will never know it: Who refused who. At first Franco was reluctant to enter war due to the critical internal situation; time after, the tide of the war began to change and nobody wants to stay with loosers.
But I think that the main question is the price Franco set for the spanish participation.

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 11:45 pm

I don't think Franco was asking for too much since they had possessions there or used to have (Spanish Morocco?). More likely he didn't need another war as you said.

Cap Mandrake · Post by **Cap Mandrake** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:43 am

Hey...you know how the French ambassador would communicate with Gen. Franco?

1....2......3....

Why..... the FrancoPhone of course :p

Judging from the response to this thread..Matrix would have a least 10-15 copies of UV Med pre-sold.

Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the Mediterranean

Convoys

Re: An Idea...

I bet for Med