Ideas please?

[RogerJNeilson]

Ok we are in early 1944 and my Allied offensives are going pleasingly well. I have air superiority as far as I can tell over the current combat areas, and his fleet (what is left of it) is keeping out of harm's way.

Recently I have bombed two bases that have had level 2 ish fortifications and in both cases, though the FOW report I got indicated massive disruption, my opponent tells me the units were basically evaporated. His point, which I accept, is that there is no reason to bother trying to defend these bases if I can wipe out the defenders by air in one strike.

Much as I take great pleasure in payback for things that happened earlier in the war it does seem a little too easy at the moment. Anyone have any ideas about ways of applying some house rule to make it less severe? I have thught about maybe not allowing heavy bombers when my troops are landing - so only having tacair support as one possibility.

Here is the entirety of the combat reports for the base that day. bear in mind what I have seen as disablements he is reporting as wiped out.

Amphibious Assault at Bandjermasin (60,99) TF 257 troops unloading over beach at Bandjermasin, 60,99 Allied ground losses: 176 casualties reported Squads: 1 destroyed, 33 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 14 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Guns lost 13 (0 destroyed, 13 disabled) Vehicles lost 7 (0 destroyed, 7 disabled) 13 troops of a USMC Rifle Squad 43 lost in surf during unload of 3rd Marine Rgt /2 ,

Invasion Support action off Bandjermasin (60,99) Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force 30 Coastal gun shots fired in defense. Allied Ships PG Soerabaja LST-120 DD Cushing LST-451 Allied ground losses: 13 casualties reported Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled PG Soerabaja fired at enemy troops Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 4,000 yards Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards ,

Morning Air attack on Bandjermasin, at 60,9935,oo Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 9 minutes Allied aircraft TBM-1C Avenger x 9 Allied aircraft losses TBM-1C Avenger: 1 damaged Runway hits 1 Aircraft Attacking: 9 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 10000 feet Airfield Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb ,

Morning Air attack on Bandjermasin, at 60,99 Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid spotted at 8 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 2 minutes Allied aircraft P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 21 Allied aircraft losses P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 5 damaged Aircraft Attacking: 21 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt bombing from 100 feet ,

Morning Air attack on 16th Naval Guard Unit, at 60,99 (Bandjermasin) Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 6 minutes Allied aircraft B-17E Fortress x 3 B-24D1 Liberator x 14 B-24J Liberator x 34 Allied aircraft losses B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged B-24J Liberator: 4 damaged Japanese ground losses: 496 casualties reported Squads: 2 destroyed, 33 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 16 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Aircraft Attacking: 8 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb 6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb 6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb 8 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb 8 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb 12 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb 3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb Also attacking 78th Nav Gd /1 ... Also attacking 16th Naval Guard Unit ... Also attacking 78th Nav Gd /1 ... Also attacking 16th Naval Guard Unit ... Also attacking 78th Nav Gd /1 … ,

Morning Air attack on 16th Naval Guard Unit, at 60,99 (Bandjermasin) Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 6 minutes Allied aircraft B-24J Liberator x 6 Allied aircraft losses B-24J Liberator: 1 damaged Japanese ground losses: 34 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Aircraft Attacking: 6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 6000 feet Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb ,

Morning Air attack on 16th Naval Guard Unit, at 60,99 (Bandjermasin) Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 5 minutes Allied aircraft B-17E Fortress x 4 B-25D1 Mitchell x 6 Allied aircraft losses B-25D1 Mitchell: 2 damaged Japanese ground losses: 41 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Aircraft Attacking: 4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 6000 feet Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb 6 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 6000 feet * Ground Attack: 3 x 500 lb GP Bomb ,

Invasion Support action off Bandjermasin (60,99) Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force 7 Coastal gun shots fired in defense. Allied Ships LST-123 LST-120 PG Soerabaja DD Cushing Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards ,

Ground combat at Bandjermasin (60,99) Japanese Bombardment attack Attacking force 1027 troops, 18 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 40 Defending force 2003 troops, 37 guns, 52 vehicles, Assault Value = 50 Allied ground losses: 9 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Assaulting units: 16th Naval Guard Unit 4th JNAF Coy 8th JAAF AF Bn /2 78th Nav Gd /1 Defending units: 3rd Marine Rgt /5 5th USN Naval Const Rgt /1 2nd RAN Base Force /1 15th NZ AA Bde /3 ,


We are long term opponents going back to the original WITP so its about resolving this without damaging the game.

Roger

[geofflambert]

How not up to date are you? Anyways the common house rule of no 4E bombing below 10k would ameliorate that a bit. But those results in heavy rain do seem to be a problem. Never had anything like that happen to me.

[RogerJNeilson]

Latest beta patch - so as up date as we can be.

I'd be surprised if a couple of thousand feet made much difference - and yes the heavy rain does seem a strange one.

Roger

[AE Veteran]

Hey All, I'm Rogers opponent and a most pissed off one at that, not at Roger but at the game I love so much. What is the problem, well 4E's are the problem. In the last couple of turns I've had an elite (90 Exp) para unit at Balilpapan and another Naval Guard unit (below), turned to mush in one day. In level 2-3 forts. I spend between 1 and 2 hours a turn moving stuff around, preparing bases for defence etc but I'm now finding it totally pointless as any centres of resistance are just completely flattened by a few over hyped 4E's. Furthermore why isnt friendly fire factored into the game? Heads in the sand guys???? It did happen, frequently. Since this problem has been around for many years (why do people put up with it??) and isnt ever going to be fixed, any ideas on house rules? We have got to Feb 1944 and i dont want to have to concede, especially in the good position I am in!!



Morning Air attack on 16th Naval Guard Unit, at 60,99 (Bandjermasin)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-24D1 Liberator x 14
B-24J Liberator x 34

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
496 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 33 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 16 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

[geofflambert]

I've seen better results than that with 1 & 2Es (in larger numbers) but not with heavy rain. Perhaps if there's a problem, it's not just a 4E problem. In any case, though I don't know how the engine works on these things, if restricted to 10k or above, you should be above the cloud deck and not get very good results. Try that some and see what happens. Even though you're not playing against the AI, I think there are problems that compound as you get later into the war, but that's just a feeling.

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: AE Veteran
Hey All, I'm Rogers opponent and a most pissed off one at that, not at Roger but at the game I love so much. What is the problem, well 4E's are the problem. In the last couple of turns I've had an elite (90 Exp) para unit at Balilpapan and another Naval Guard unit (below), turned to mush in one day. In level 2-3 forts. I spend between 1 and 2 hours a turn moving stuff around, preparing bases for defence etc but I'm now finding it totally pointless as any centres of resistance are just completely flattened by a few over hyped 4E's. Furthermore why isnt friendly fire factored into the game? Heads in the sand guys???? It did happen, frequently. Since this problem has been around for many years (why do people put up with it??) and isnt ever going to be fixed, any ideas on house rules? We have got to Feb 1944 and i dont want to have to concede, especially in the good position I am in!!

I share your pain.
As a devoted Japanese player with almost full PBEM campaign under my belt I must say that the usage and the effectiveness of 4Es used Operation Cobra style against LCUs is a big pain in the a** and a source of disagreement with my opponent.
I think the 4Es effectiveness is way too high and their function should be mainly: strategic bombing.
But some (AFBs) just insist on Cobra style every day which imho just spoils the fun of the game.

Some HRs say: no 4E LCU bombing at all or limit the mission height (I think there is not much difference if the bombers come at 10000 or 13000), some other say "one land bombing mission per week" or "only ne squadron to use on land bombing" which might be a way to illustrate the logistic works needed to prepare massive raids of 4Es.

I find that the fort level (meaning a difference between forts level 2 or 3)
means nothing and unless you have forts >6 you can't expect much hide.
Usually it hurts most while the LCUs are positioned in the clear terrain, where the forces can be and are simply annihilated, but Bandjermasin is a "swamp" so... those results are not that weird. Just wait to see hundreds of 4Es hitting a LCU in the open.
They can sweep whole divisions no matter how experienced. For me it's just: no fun.

[AE Veteran]

What also annoys me is the lack of friendly fire - in Cobra the bombs also landed on the Allied lines and caused 700 casualties in one raid including killing an American general. Why isnt it factored into the game????????? The attack on Panzer Lehr was by 2000 4E's according to Wiki - lol in AE fifty 4E's are division killers. What a joke. Can only think few people get onto the latter stages of the game and therefore have to put up with this shit! All the effort Roger and I have put into the game... Thanks so far guys!

[geofflambert]

I think 4E should be able to bomb somehow instead of sitting around or just doing search/transport missions early in the war but I think the altitude they do it should be regulated. Historically the Ploesti raid really happened (though it was a disaster) with B-24's flying below 100' (look at the pics, it true) but for game balance purposes, we just can't do that. Similarly carpet bombing of troops in the field really did occur, but it was done once and they figured out it really wasn't a good idea because by doing it you were constructing a fortification level 9 for the enemy to defend. For game purposes we shouldn't allow that. Therefore I suggest we all consider house rules on minimum altitude for 4Es and raid size (number of engines allowed in a single raid)* for all aircraft types. Let's all ruminate and come up with a standard if we can. We might come up with some extra detail like Fs and FBs not counting against the total.

* by single raid I mean # allowed per day per target.

edit: I meant to say if you're within bombing range of Japanese aircraft/engine factories you better be bombing them (or firebombing the city) rather than bombing ground troops.

[AE Veteran]

From Wiki - the 2000 4E attack on Panzer Lehr:-


After the one-day postponement, Cobra got underway at 09:38 on 25 July, when around 600 Allied fighter-bombers attacked strongpoints and enemy artillery along a 300 yd (270 m)-wide strip of ground located in the St. Lô area.[76] For the next hour, 1,800 heavy bombers of the U.S. Eighth Air Force saturated a 6,000 yd × 2,200 yd (5,500 m × 2,000 m) area on the Saint-Lô–Periers road, succeeded by a third and final wave of medium bombers.[77] Approximately 3,000 U.S. aircraft had carpet-bombed a narrow section of the front, with the Panzer-Lehr-Division taking the brunt of the attack.[52] However, once again not all the casualties were German; Bradley had specifically requested that the bombers approach the target from the east, out of the sun and parallel to the Saint-Lô–Periers road, in order to minimize the risk of friendly losses, but most of the airmen instead came in from the north, perpendicular to the front line.[77] Bradley, however, had apparently misunderstood explanations from the heavy bomber commanders that a parallel approach was impossible because of the time and space constraints Bradley had set. Additionally, a parallel approach would not in any event have assured that all bombs would fall behind German lines because of deflection errors or obscured aim points due to dust and smoke.[78] Despite efforts by U.S. units to identify their positions, inaccurate bombing by the Eighth Air Force killed 111 men and wounded 490.[79] The dead included Bradley's friend and fellow West Pointer Lieutenant General Lesley McNair—the highest-ranking U.S. soldier to be killed in action in the European Theater of Operations.[79]

By 11:00, the infantry began to move forward, advancing from crater to crater beyond what had been the German outpost line.[79] Although no serious opposition was forecast,[80] the remnants of Bayerlein′s Panzer Lehr—consisting of roughly 2,200 men and 45 armored vehicles[71]—had regrouped and were prepared to meet the advancing U.S. troops, and to the west of Panzer Lehr the German 5th Parachute Division had escaped the bombing almost intact.[80] Collins' VII Corps were quite disheartened to meet fierce enemy artillery fire,[81] which they expected to have been suppressed by the bombing.[81] Several U.S. units found themselves entangled in fights against strongpoints held by a handful of German tanks, supporting infantry and 88 mm (3.46 in) guns[81]—VII Corps gained only 2,200 yd (2,000 m) during the rest of the day.[80] However, if the first day's results had been disappointing, General Collins found cause for encouragement; although the Germans were fiercely holding their positions, these did not seem to form a continuous line and were susceptible to being outflanked or bypassed.[81] Even with prior warning of the American offensive, the British and Canadian actions around Caen had convinced the Germans that the real threat lay there, and tied down their available forces to such an extent that a succession of meticulously prepared defensive positions in depth, as encountered during Goodwood and Atlantic, were not created to meet Cobra.[71]

[AE Veteran]

Thanks for your thoughts Geoff. Unfortunately small packets of 4E's still cause enormous damage whereas IRL 2000 4E's didnt exactly destroy Panzer Lehr, see my other post.

[obvert]

I too face 200-300 4Es 4-6 times a week in TWO theatres. When they bomb anything in the open or not under level 6 forts it quickly turns ugly. Luckily I've had time to build those forts in most places. I remember rader talking about whole divisions on the Manchurian front being liquidated in the clear by B-29 raids in 2-3 turns!

This bombing of troops accurately when both (sometimes massive) armies are in one hex is ludicrous to say the least. It happened once in the war, and with the consequences listed above. To be fair the Japnese can do this in China early and with great consequences, getting 1000+ casualties a turn in the clear. They don't really need it though, and the Allies are fully capable without this tactic as well. It would be better for both sides if ground support with strafing worked so that planes that did have some success in those roles could be used more often for each side.

If altitude settings were even more a determining factor in bomb accuracy maybe that would be a kind of fix. So even Sonias and Boomerangs at 1k could be effective, but 4E would have to risk getting low into the flak to have the kind of success they have now. Wouldn't it be nice if B-25 strafers could actually do something with those guns, too! Or P-39s, or Hurris?

Same hex bombing should have friendly fire accidents to make it's use less enticing. Seriously, Jocke and I had about 700k troops in one hex of 46 miles across and the bombs kept dropping, hitting only my troops, by far the less numerous of the two armies.

HRs could be possible, but kind of hard to follow for this sort of thing.

[AE Veteran]

Maybe a house rule is 4E's can only carpet bomb bases with a combined port and airfield size of x at say 20000 ft? If so, what is x?

[Amoral]

You opponent is right that there is no point defending forward bases with no air cover and no level 9 forts in 1944. Troops outside the air umbrella in 1944 are already dead. To me, this is a reasonable result. I have no qualms about my 100-bomber Sally raids causing 250 Chinese casulties, so it would be hyprocritical to complain when a 100 bomber b-17 raid causes 2000 casualties, since a b17 drops more than four times as many bombs as a Sally.

I agree this can be tough from a gameplay standpoint. It accelerates the Japanese collapse considerably. But really, I think massive bomber raids are driving home the point that you have already lost, rather than you are starting to lose. Once the japanese airforce is broken, it is time to seek terms.

[AE Veteran]

It is the historical accuracy I want for my manhours! Of course the Japanese will lose, it is the degree of losing that is the fun. No fun at all watching 4E's wipe out my boys...this has been going on with AE since the beginning...why?????????

[RogerJNeilson]

I think we have to use the game terms. What is carpet bombing?

We have airfield attack, port attack, and ground attack. I think there is a world of difference between attacking dug in dispersed troops, often in a fairly fluid disposition and hitting fixed runways and port structures. Daylight bombing of structures by 1944 was a very serious demolition job. We need to be clear about what we are discussing. I recently read a memoir by a TBD pilot who was talking about airfield closure with two or three plane attacks only - though admittedly these are the smaller airfields.

I agree that bombing against troops is an issue. Its how we find a way to sort this within what we have. I can't say I have huge sympathy where a hex is so full of troops that there isn't room to stand - as comes across in some China situations.

Realistically I think it needs to have a penalty of collateral hits on friendly forces if in the same hex - so its a risk you may or may not take, plus a very different casualty to disablement ratio. I was very surprised to learn about the death rate - I was not surprised to see such disablements.

I do think we have to be careful about the difference between levels of fortification, troop deployment and how all this fits together. I also do think that the allied bombers were a very potent weapon, but its how you, as a commander choose to use them. I have chosen not to go the Centpac route and thus have different opportunities to use them.

Also please do bear in mind they do have signifcant fatigue and repair issues.....

All this is to add to the discussion, not to flame anything.

Roger

[RogerJNeilson]

There have been many discussions about historical accuracy. Most of it is parked under the 'the game engine won't allow more'.


I'd like a solution too, but 4Es are not the only historical inaccuracy in the game..... and its not all the Allies who benefit.

Roger

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: Amoral
I have no qualms about my 100-bomber Sally raids causing 250 Chinese casulties, so it would be hyprocritical to complain when a 100 bomber b-17 raid causes 2000 casualties, since a b17 drops more than four times as many bombs as a Sally.

Well... I have no problem with hundred of Mitchels bombing Japanese troops.
I have a problem of hundreds of 4Es pummelling a small strip of a jungle (swamps in this example...) what has no (or almost no) connection with the reality.

Can someone give some examples from RL of such activities of 4Es in the Pacific theatre?
Was it common? Has it been strategically/logically feasible? Okinawa? Iwo-Jima?

The Liberators must have had hit Rabaul hard... but imho they're used to bomb the airfields and no one tried to target the infantry troops. So I think the ground troops losses taken by bombing the airfield well imitates the casualties. Why spoil the game and target the LCUs directly?

[AE Veteran]

Also please do bear in mind they do have signifcant fatigue and repair issues.....

Lol

[RogerJNeilson]

That's quite an elegant idea, the trouble is as always it doesn't fit with the game engine.

I would agree that I should not use 4Es on deployed ground troops in close proximity to my front lines - and even a rule that says no ground attack by 4Es on hexes where friendly troops are also present.

However.....

1. This would allow me to bomb a defending unit into oblivion the move before I landed.....
2. As there is no way to interdict supply lines - as happened certainly across all the major theatres of war, the only way to bomb these is to do ground attack....

This is turning into a very useful discussion..... but for me its sleep time, will pick it up in the morning.

Roger

[AE Veteran]

Sadly the game is broken, broken, broken - such realism in parts such as a certain size ship can only offload in ports greater than x, but send in twenty 4E's and bye bye thousands of Japanese troops.