Interesting stuff in PANZERS AT WAR

[Karnaaj]

Just picked up PANZERS AT WAR (A J Barker) and AFRIKA KORPS AT WAR 1 THE ROAD TO ALEXANDRIA (George Forty), and found some, shall we say "interesting", comments...

(ooops - almost forgot, these comments are from PANZERS AT WAR)

Re: the Normandy invasion, p 125:

"In another action near Caen Tigers of No 3 Abteilung 503 Panzer Battalion were pitted against 20 Shermans. 13 Shermans were knocked out and two captured without loss or casualties on the German side."

"And even during the fighting for the Falaise Pocket the Tigers continued to live up to their reputation - just two Tigers being able to hold up the whole spearhead of the 53rd Infantry Division."

Re: the invasion of the south of France, p 122:

"Only the action at Montelimar is worthy of note - worthy because it showed that a well-handled panzer division (in this instance the under-strength 11th PD) was still a force to be reckoned with. At Montelimar the panzers held off the American Seventh Army while the rest of the retreating German Nineteenth Army fought its way out of a trap in the Rhone Valley."

Other than the first quote causing our own M4 fan(atic) to gibber and meep <G>, these sound like they'd make interesting scenarios (or, in the case of Montelimar, perhaps a mini-campaign? due to the size of the forces involved).

The biggest question, in my mind anyway, is what were the numbers/forces? 20 Shermans versus ??? Tigers? If 4, it's fun. If 15, it's clearing the cobwebs out. And what did the "spearhead" consist of? A bunch of grunts, maybe a few light tanks or suchlike as part of the recon forces? And "hold up" how badly, how long? From my own SPWAW random battles, a few "hard points" can shatter an advance real good, but eventually they get enough force in there to a) flank around, and b) swarm you until you're out of ammo or opportunities (shots).

11th Panzers, now, that sounds fine - but again, "held off" is awfully vague... did the Panzers 0wnz0r the Yankees, or did they just clot up the "easy" way through, and the resulting traffic jam was enough delay to allow the 19th Army to escape?

Ah well. Gotta admit, I bought the books mainly 'cause they have a *lot* of nice pictures... and, they were only $10 apiece. <G> Made me feel better about not spending $70 (or was it $170?) for the truly antique "First Expeditionary Force" record of British WWI actions in the Mideast. <droool>

[Figmo]

It does sound interesting - especially beings I like Tigers - I'll have to look into it and see what I can find.

Hopefully some of the guys here will have some details.

Figmo

[Karnaaj]

The other question is, since I'm now *reading* the Afrika Korps one as opposed to going "ooooh" at the piccies <G>, in quite a few of the "field" pics of the panzers, there's dirt and sand that seems to have been deliberately piled up, banked across the lower suspension and front end - deliberate as opposed to a soft-sand pileup from slamming the brakes. I'm wondering if this is a bivouac technique, making a nice little shaded area safe from random shell fragments and (if you're lucky) keeping the scorpions out?

[Belisarius]

Originally posted by Karnaaj
The other question is, since I'm now *reading* the Afrika Korps one as opposed to going "ooooh" at the piccies <G>, in quite a few of the "field" pics of the panzers, there's dirt and sand that seems to have been deliberately piled up, banked across the lower suspension and front end - deliberate as opposed to a soft-sand pileup from slamming the brakes. I'm wondering if this is a bivouac technique, making a nice little shaded area safe from random shell fragments and (if you're lucky) keeping the scorpions out?

Isn't (and: wasn't) that standard digging-in practice for tanks? A sand/dirt bank absorbs a LOT more energy than armor by itself.

I.e. a prepared defensive position? They did that alot in Africa.

[Voriax]

Maps:

http://www.kwanah.com/txmilmus/36divisi ... ntemap.htm

Heh...looks like Wild Bill has already done a scenario about this battle..for Combat Mission. So he probably has more info.

Few others:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/OOB ... ision.html
http://www.grazian-archive.com/autobiog ... WAR_13.htm

Voriax

[Karnaaj]

Originally posted by Belisarius
Isn't (and: wasn't) that standard digging-in practice for tanks? A sand/dirt bank absorbs a LOT more energy than armor by itself.

I.e. a prepared defensive position? They did that alot in Africa.

Prob is, it's just so *low*. There's a nice pic of a Pz IV tarted up to look like a truck <G> with a low stone wall, but I think that was just camo. From the pix, it appears that *maybe* they're raise up six inches or so above the surrounding flatness, with dirt/sand bermed up - just enough in front to reach the bottom of the front and, and on the sides to cover the ground-contacting section of the tracks, and lower wheels. Can't really tell if it's up to the bottom of the sides or not, but I expect it is. And there's no shots showing the back end as far as I've seen, so damned if I know.

I'd expect an actual defensive berm to rise up higher, especially in front, and not cover the tracks and such... then again, I'm not a treadhead. <heheheh>

I did try going to a couple websites to look for more pix, but the 'net gagged on me and I went to bed. <shrug> Mebbe later...

[Belisarius]

It'd be cool to see if you could find any. You're right - it doesn't quite sound like an ordinary defensive wall. But you never know. :p