Your Experiences So Far with Shadows Difficulty Settings

[ASHBERY76]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Otherwise looks like it's time to ban technology trading and gifting ... sigh!

Frankly, I'm impressed that it's possible for you to win at Extreme difficulty, along with all the other improvements to how the AI makes decisions and fights wars in Shadows. We're still mostly fixing bugs right now, but I think the above option may need to be added in an upcoming update based on this feedback.

Regards,

- Erik

Just to make my opinion known on this. Outright banning of tech trade...no. Optional for the player, yes.

One suggestion I might make is that the only way you can trade techs, bases, planets, etc is if you have an MDP with the empire you are wanting to trade with. This I think would curb a lot of the problems. Trading your technology should be something you do with only the most trusted of allies.

In fact, here is exactly how I would do it:

Tech trading criteria:

* must have MDP agreement
* for techs 2 levels or lower than current, relations at +75 or higher
* for techs 1 level less than current, relations at +90 or higher
* for equal level or advanced techs, relations at +100 or higher
* for special techs, relations at +125 or higher

Agreed.Improve the A.I mechanics would be a better solution.Personally I never would trade latest weapon type to anybody and I am way more carefull about giving my maps to any tom,dick or harry.The A.I seems to just accept anything on the basis of cash,relations and has no intelligence at all.

[Icemania]

Also agree good idea Shark. I also agree with Ashberry that some race specific trading intelligence could be implemented such as setting different technology focus beelines depending on the race and differing valuations.

[paShadoWn]

I like to play Hard, Chaos, around 420 research (found it after experimenting, at this rate you actually get to use every tech and dont have to redesign every 5 minutes but also do not have to wait half hour to get into space), max respawning pirates and creatures (so i can at least get some).

I tried playing Extreme and did not liked it. It didnt made game harder, it made it lot more tedious. Meaning my fleets had to mow thru 3-4 times more of autodesigned junk - and with bonuses to cm they were also missing thus mowing longer - and i had to constantly bombard and recapture planets versus ground spam manually. You cant do it on auto because ai first lands troops then bombards them and population to extinction; it doesnt stop when there no more hostile troops 'then' lands own. And automated task forces simply fail to intercept transports because they are usually randomly scattered about. Or guard mining station in border nebula.

The problem with autodesigns is that they fail to survive, meaning my ships shoot them down, retreat, recharge and come back to shoot some more. I only lose some ships when attacking clusters of huge bases because my ships have decent shielding, armor and set to retreat when attacked (50% shield is too late and doesnt consider railguns) That means no amount of extra economy given to ai will make game harder, it will only make it somewhat longer. I once again urge developers to ask on forums for decent ship designs and make ai templates from them. You cant just put random amounts of random stuff into ship and make it win over balanced, optimized and specialized designs.

The problem we are facing here is global for most games; it is called by me the "feeder syndrome" deriving from LoL slang and is a tendency to suicide units. Meaning you just respawn or mass produce and send them to the enemy. To die. The feeder "strat" inevitably falls to anything including unit preservation as priority. Because preserved units, you know, accumulate. And in some games improve. But it does just fine vs itself. And because it is omnipresent, it actually works.

I played a game of Wesnoth recently, slain 6 enemy units with zero losses, leveled my ulfzerker to 2 and was about to finish off my side when my partner's overextended commander was assassinated because he suicided most of his troops and had nothing to cover him with. Result - they won. 3 feeders vs one me.

In shooter games like CoD it leads to hilarious 50+ killstreaks and nuking map. Because most players are feeders.

[Icemania]

I agree with your call for the developers to improve default ship design templates for the AI on hard and above. I would suggest these improved templates are not made available to the human player at all, as it is a great feature of the game to learn to improve the default designs. Those learning the game should play on Normal so no real disadvantage to them and we should expect the AI to be smarter on harder difficulties.

The intent when I suggested an Expert System based on human players was to go a lot further than ship design e.g. Technology research order particularly early, better tax rate policy to encourage faster colony growth, more Explorers to find goodies, more Constructors to build Relics etc. Again, I would do this on hard or above.

Also I don't really mean using forum feedback, although that would be a start. I mean watching every moment of what an experienced human player does and distilling this down to as many practically implementable rules as possible.

I'm just finishing a game now on Extreme Difficulty with Scaling, Small Map, 19 other Random Empires Old and Tech Level 5 while I'm Pre-Warp, they have Excellent Homeworlds while I am Harsh, with Chaos Aggression. To be honest I'm not really sure why Erik is impressed with winning on Extreme Difficulty as it's clear many of us are.

I would make the goal of the next expansion to make a step-change improvement in the AI. Purely self-interest of course, as I want to play this game more ... but what a great competitive advantage, particularly in the current market place.

[MartialDoctor]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
The Teekan and Zenox coveted my resources but the Naxillian were a bit further away. The Naxillian declared war at one stage and probably would have wiped the floor with me but a quick big payoff was enough for them to declare peace. The Teekan and Naxillian then had a war which softened the Naxillian up.

Gifting obviously helped. I don't agree Gifting is broken at least in this sort of game. A material effect doesn't come cheap when you can't technology trade early.

Gifting doesn't work well in the way it appears to be implemented. Let's take your situation. The Naxillian have a much stronger economy than yourself. If you give them a "large gift", it is based on your money, not on the Naxillians. The second problem is it's based on the amount of money you have, not on how much is being made.

The effects gained by gifting should be based primarily on how much money the empire receiving the gift is making. It should have nothing to do with how much you have. So, if you gift a "large gift" of 20,000 but the Naxillian are making 50,000 every year, that means very little to them and, thus, the effect should be negligible.

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to work this way and, thus, I stopped using it. Since, as you've shown, you can give them money and they just won't attack you. Even though that money was probably pocket change for them, considering your settings.

[MartialDoctor]

Regarding tech trading, I actually think the way it is implemented in Galactic Civilizations 2 is best. It's a bit annoying but it makes sense to make the game more challenging.

Basically, as you increase the difficulty level, the amount you receive for trading techs is much lower. The AI doesn't value your technologies as much. Thus, you must trade high level techs and will only get a low level tech in return or a smaller amount of cash.

Yes, it's not very realistic but otherwise you can do what Icemania does. Beeline for a high level tech and then trade it for all the other techs that other races have.

I also like some of the ideas presented above.

[Icemania]

I never really felt threatened in my last game even at those settings. I just kept to one system until I was ready to strategically expand. By the time they were declaring war mid-game after I started to expand it was really already too late i.e. I had caught up in technology so the determining factor was fleet composition and ship design (i.e. my fleets with the largest possible custom designed ships versus the AI's auto-designed junk). My point is for the AI to have a genuine step-change ... all of these topics need to be in the scope.

Gifting you make a very strong and logical argument. I've come around to agree and it sounds very achievable to implement.

A quick clarification the beeline strategy was for racial technology rather than general high level technology, otherwise trading for other technologies would have taken far longer (as it would have to be Level 6 since everyone else was Level 5 at the start).

With Technology Trading I would prefer Shark + Ashberry's solution as it has a realistic basis (e.g. the US is not giving anybody the F-22 regardless) rather than applying an artificial penalty.

I would add we shouldn't feel the need to avoid Technology Selling to maintain balance. Maybe technology should be worth less even at Normal ... but I expect this has been considered in the past?

[MarQan]

Technology trading shouldn't be restricted in a way that Shark suggests, only optionally.
Although I agree that if the player aims for a challenging and realistic gameplay, he/she (most likely he) should only use it in desperate situations, when the empire is at stake.
If you read any sci-fi book, or watch a series you can see, that technology trading almost never happens; and when it does the price is unreasonably high, because there's no time or other solution.
Or just take a look at some higher-tech companies.

Btw when starting PreWarp, while other empires are on tech level 2-3, set research to 999k, corruption to very high, then how does technology trading help? Friendly relation is needed for tech-trading. With the above settings probably only Mercantile Guilds have enough money to buy techs, but they rarely get friendly with anybody (especially on unstable/chaos), and probably better off with research boost.

Don't get me wrong, having more options is the best thing that could happen to Distant Worlds, but if tech-trading is an issue for you, there are ways to negate its advantages.

As for making a game challenging (other than the trivial settings) the first step is choosing an inferior race or one that doesn't correspond to your playstyle. I think for most of us both applies to Atuuk, and neither to Ackdarians.
Races with access to Technocracy and Marcantile Guild are easier than others.

I also find Cluster maps to be more difficult.
I get in a cage fight with 1-2 empires as soon as I start expanding, then have to set up bases in other clusters to be able to attack them.

[elanaagain]

I like many of the suggestions about tech trading in the above posts. I feel very strongly, however, that these changes should be options that the user many,or may not choose to activate at each game start. If fact, an easy way for gamers to mod this aspect of the game should also be included.

[Icemania]

MarQan, I don't see any current setting that would materially change the ability to exploit trading. And in any case I want to trade as it's a great feature of the game.

On Chaos I've always been able to find at least a few Empires to be friendly with at least temporarily ... enabling trading and catch-up. Once I'm expanding this can become far more difficult, so I don't expand until I've already caught up on technology, when playing a game with these settings.

As for restricting the races, I'd prefer the AI was improved, rather than putting in even more "manual" restrictions than what I've already adopted. But let's say I did what you suggest ... well I could still beeline for a higher technology which I could then trade. It would take longer to get to technology parity but it wouldn't fundamentally change anything.

Each to their own but personally I find technology research on $999k is too slow. Again, it would just take longer to get to technology parity, it wouldn't fundamentally change anything.

Same with high corruption. And I don't allow myself to sell technology anymore.

With Shark's suggestion it is certain my trading opportunities would be very limited but possible with enough focus. It better emulates the real world and provides a fundamental change to improve the game.

I'll try Cluster.

[MarQan]

Nothing by itself changes the game fundamentally. Don't dissect my post, the suggestions weren't supposed to be taken separately.

The triumvirate of this game is Money-Research-Military, if you're getting behind in any of it, you're gonna have a bad time. Excluding the Research and Money races matters much. Race-selection is not a "manual restriction", it's part of the game and the main component of the difficulty setting. Military races are unfortunately not as military as they should be, and they're very hated, so I'd say they're medium difficulty.

So you're PreWarp, on Very Hard at least, Unstable at least, with Very Many Pirates Nearby, and the max number of Empires on the given map size. This means that the pirates gonna cut your income pretty soon. With Very High Corruption this is a major setback. With a Harsh Home-World it hurts even more.
With Starting or Young Empires you have much catching up to do.

At 999K Research Cost you have to focus on Energy Research to get out of your system. Then you'll probably get attacked soon by a bold pirate, or a bored empire which means you need weapons. So in the first 100 years your research is pretty restricted, you can't beeline.

If this is not challenging, then please define what you mean by challenging.

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

MarQan, I don't see any current setting that would materially change the ability to exploit trading. And in any case I want to trade as it's a great feature of the game.

On Chaos I've always been able to find at least a few Empires to be friendly with at least temporarily ... enabling trading and catch-up. Once I'm expanding this can become far more difficult, so I don't expand until I've already caught up on technology, when playing a game with these settings.

As for restricting the races, I'd prefer the AI was improved, rather than putting in even more "manual" restrictions than what I've already adopted. But let's say I did what you suggest ... well I could still beeline for a higher technology which I could then trade. It would take longer to get to technology parity but it wouldn't fundamentally change anything.

Each to their own but personally I find technology research on $999k is too slow. Again, it would just take longer to get to technology parity, it wouldn't fundamentally change anything.

Same with high corruption. And I don't allow myself to sell technology anymore.

With Shark's suggestion it is certain my trading opportunities would be very limited but possible with enough focus. It better emulates the real world and provides a fundamental change to improve the game.

I'll try Cluster.

Try setting up a custom race with negative amounts or just 0 with relations to all the other races in the biases file, no one wants to trade and usually ends up with them wanting to go to war, you can still have relations but you really have to work at it if you do want them.

Darkspire

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: MarQan

Nothing by itself changes the game fundamentally. Don't dissect my post, the suggestions weren't supposed to be taken separately.

The triumvirate of this game is Money-Research-Military, if you're getting behind in any of it, you're gonna have a bad time. Excluding the Research and Money races matters much. Race-selection is not a "manual restriction", it's part of the game and the main component of the difficulty setting. Military races are unfortunately not as military as they should be, and they're very hated, so I'd say they're medium difficulty.

So you're PreWarp, on Very Hard at least, Unstable at least, with Very Many Pirates Nearby, and the max number of Empires on the given map size. This means that the pirates gonna cut your income pretty soon. With Very High Corruption this is a major setback. With a Harsh Home-World it hurts even more.
With Starting or Young Empires you have much catching up to do.

At 999K Research Cost you have to focus on Energy Research to get out of your system. Then you'll probably get attacked soon by a bold pirate, or a bored empire which means you need weapons. So in the first 100 years your research is pretty restricted, you can't beeline.

If this is not challenging, then please define what you mean by challenging.

That is not challenging, that is crippling.

Darkspire

[MarQan]

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

ORIGINAL: MarQan

Nothing by itself changes the game fundamentally. Don't dissect my post, the suggestions weren't supposed to be taken separately.

The triumvirate of this game is Money-Research-Military, if you're getting behind in any of it, you're gonna have a bad time. Excluding the Research and Money races matters much. Race-selection is not a "manual restriction", it's part of the game and the main component of the difficulty setting. Military races are unfortunately not as military as they should be, and they're very hated, so I'd say they're medium difficulty.

So you're PreWarp, on Very Hard at least, Unstable at least, with Very Many Pirates Nearby, and the max number of Empires on the given map size. This means that the pirates gonna cut your income pretty soon. With Very High Corruption this is a major setback. With a Harsh Home-World it hurts even more.
With Starting or Young Empires you have much catching up to do.

At 999K Research Cost you have to focus on Energy Research to get out of your system. Then you'll probably get attacked soon by a bold pirate, or a bored empire which means you need weapons. So in the first 100 years your research is pretty restricted, you can't beeline.

If this is not challenging, then please define what you mean by challenging.

That is not challenging, that is crippling.

Darkspire

And that is a very subjective comment without anything useful.

[Darkspire]

And that is a very subjective comment without anything useful.

The comment was a statement of fact from my point of view and did not need more words than that which was written. Setting things up like that can not really be that fun, it would be like cutting the legs off your horse and still expecting it to win the grand national.

Darkspire

[MarQan]

Subjective means that, yes.

Icemania is looking for a challenging game. Accepting the challenge means that you accept the fact, that you have to go out of your comfort zone (otherwise it wouldn't be considered a challenge, now would it?!). That starts when you have to do something, you wouldn't normally do.

I've played that scenario and my legless horse won the "grand national".

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: MarQan

Subjective means that, yes.

Icemania is looking for a challenging game. Accepting the challenge means that you accept the fact, that you have to go out of your comfort zone (otherwise it wouldn't be considered a challenge, now would it?!). That starts when you have to do something, you wouldn't normally do.

I've played that scenario and my legless horse won the "grand national".

Challenge : 'A test of one's abilities or resources in a demanding but stimulating undertaking'

Top marks to you sir if you managed to still win the grand national (I am sure there must have been anti-gravs involved somewhere though), but not what I would call stimulating or fun. Hence the original comment, 'crippling not challenging'

Darkspire

[MarQan]

I'm glad you agree.

Stimulating: Raise levels of physiological or nervous activity in (the body or any biological system).
Nothing does that like going out of your comfort zone.

Trust me, riding a flying horse is rather stimulating and fun.

[Icemania]

MarQan, I'm not proposing anything by itself. As this thread shows I've already gone out of my comfort zone by trying settings that initially I preferred to leave alone. Collectively I'm on the most difficult settings, the only two left were very high corruption and a weaker race, which I'm playing now, and it's already clear what I said previously is valid.

So let's communicate better with each other about challenge. What I'm saying is that with any collective difficulty settings, if I survive the very start of the game, it's become just a matter of time before winning. It might be slower and take more patience but I don't feel threatened mid-game ... ever. To meet my definition of challenging there would be games at these settings where mid-game my empire would be dead and I'd be left scratching my head thinking of other strategies to try.

And in order to achieve that ... as a forum ... there are clearly a lot of good ideas that could be considered to help improve the AI in the future.

[Icemania]

Thanks Darkspire I will give a custom race a try.