initial Japanese factory damage

[mike scholl 1]

Historically, Japan's R&D efforts were pretty pathetic. So the ONLY justification for this is that you are a JFB and want more toys to play with. If you are playing against the AI, and are incompetent enough to need the help, go ahead. But against a real opponent, you better check with him before you try this. He may want some "fantasy nonsense" of his own in return (like working US Torpedoes).

[spence]

Players harboring 1930s-40s Japanese fantasies have so far seemed to dominate the development of this game. To my mind they should just as well indulge in "War in the Orion Nebula" as "War in the Pacific"

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Historically, Japan's R&D efforts were pretty pathetic. So the ONLY justification for this is that you are a JFB and want more toys to play with. If you are playing against the AI, and are incompetent enough to need the help, go ahead. But against a real opponent, you better check with him before you try this. He may want some "fantasy nonsense" of his own in return (like working US Torpedoes).

This is a pretty harsh statement. Especially since I asked for other's opnions on the subject. Also considering you know nothing about me and how I play the game, I think your assumptions are unfounded about whether I am incompetent or not.

I asked as to why engine factories did not start off damaged while R&D ones do and Wips was kind enough to respond so I got my answer. As to whether to start a game with the R&D factories repaired of not is up to everyone's individual decision. I NEVER asked for this to be addressed in a patch or made official. My exact quote from the primer is "I strongly suggest that regardless of whether you are playing against the AI or a PBEM game, open up the editor and repair all of Japan’s R&D factories. "

If you (or anyone else) do not want to play that way, I have no issue. Nor would I do any of this without discussing this with whomever my Allied or Japanese oppenent may be. I will tell you that if I played the Allies, I would have no issue with allowing whomever is playing Japan to do this. But to call me names just because I want to discuss different options in the game seems a liitle too much.

[geofflambert]

I may be being unfair here (quite possible) but it seems to me that one of the lines of argument here is very goal oriented and amounts to "I want what I want because I want it". I'm thinking the R&D repair issues relate to the idea that the researching of many of the aircraft types would be unrealistic if it began in 12/41 or 1/42. I don't believe for instance that the Japanese were or could be ready to seriously begin development of jet fighters and rocket planes then (although the Germans were). I think the repair delay is to put that (and other models like Frank) off a bit before it begins, instead of having some absolute earliest beginning date for R&D to begin imposed on the player, probably because that would be difficult to do with this game engine. I'm not interested in fooling with that and I'm going to trust the designers work thus far and I'm unconvinced by "I see no reason" why you can't set up the Japanese from the get go to do what they weren't doing and weren't ready to do as anything more than an excuse. "What if" mods are not my cup of tea. I'll play the Japanese straight.

What I'm looking for is to begin the game in the same situation (as closely as can be simulated) as they were on 12/7/41 and then (but not before) trying to make better decisions. If the starting point is that let's say Frank will begin production earlier than historical without the Japanese player making any changes (once the game starts) and paying the costs to do that, that's just wrong.

[Numdydar]

Actually if that is the type of game you want. it is very easy to do so. Just play with PDU Off [:)]. I actually prefer to play Japan that way because, while you can still accelerate various planes, it does not do you much good as only the squadrons that had that plane type can upgrade to them. So if you got Franks early, you could only upgrade the squadrons that had them in the real war. This means you could have 500 Franks in the pool and they would not do you much good since only a few squadrons actually had them. So you could NOT go around converting all your IJA planes to Franks everywhere like you can with PDU On.
 
So if you really want to experence the Japanese as close as they were historically, the PDU Off is the way to go. The section in the Primer about R&D will still work as described. Personally, when I play with PDU Off, I don't even bother with acceleration. I just leave the factories as they are and let whatever happens happen [:)]. I will change them over to the next model when the one closest to the available date is about to come on line. As I think that is reasonable and within the 'historical' parameters [:)]. 
 
I hope this is helpful [:)]

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Historically, Japan's R&D efforts were pretty pathetic. So the ONLY justification for this is that you are a JFB and want more toys to play with. If you are playing against the AI, and are incompetent enough to need the help, go ahead. But against a real opponent, you better check with him before you try this. He may want some "fantasy nonsense" of his own in return (like working US Torpedoes).

This is a pretty harsh statement. Especially since I asked for other's opnions on the subject. Also considering you know nothing about me and how I play the game, I think your assumptions are unfounded about whether I am incompetent or not.

You asked for opinions..., I offered mine. There is no historical justification for what you proposed, so it's purely a matter of personal preference against the AI..., and something to be discussed with a real opponent.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: obvert

To have R n D that the Japanese player can control is a fairly big plus as it works now. There is no need for more. As a game feature it's very fun and it's one of the reasons I've really enjoyed playing the Japanese side, but it's far too easy as is to get planes very early. Thinking in some kind of realistic (historical) terms, why are we getting any planes early at all?

I love it because I may get to try out planes that never made it into combat, but it's certainly odd that when I play Japan I can get a plane 6-12 months ahead of schedule while if I play the Allies I sit and wait for P-51Ds until late 44.

Can you please provide details on how you can get a plane 12 months in advance as the best i have been able to do is six [:(]

Well, look at rader's game with GJ for a few examples. And I'm probably thinking of Scen 2 games for the most extreme cases where the planes already come a few months early so it makes the research easier.

For me, playing a Scen 1 stock game, the longest research lines get them well over 6 months early by default. The last Oscar version has only two research factories of 30, and I've simply gone to the next model as each has been ready. Now it's at the last model and that is coming in 9/44 which is 11 months early. (I'm sure my opponent is shaking in his shoes to see that there's a new 364mph fighter sporting all of two guns now arriving![:D]). If I'd wanted to push that earlier I'm sure I could have with a few more factories.

I'll probably get the Frank Ki-84r about 9-10 months early, and that only with 3 x 30 factories for the late model. In jrcar's game it came in early 44 I think, but I can't remember if that is Scen 2 or not. The A7M2 Sam will be about 8-9 months ahead. The Sam is the one plane I feel most justified to push hard because it was in development much earlier but was shelved a bit after Midway.

All of that said, my comment above is about a lot more than the ability to get planes early. I question why we should?

It's great to be able to personalize your air force with production, but getting planes up to a year in advance simply changes the dynamic of the war and turns it into complete fictional abstraction. I wouldn't argue with a player who wanted to do that against me in a PBEM if I were Allied because I see now the weight and quality of the equipment the Allies get in the late stages. It does make for great competition and that is what most of us are after, but it is certainly a rather long-legged step away from history.

[obvert]

x

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: spence

Players harboring 1930s-40s Japanese fantasies have so far seemed to dominate the development of this game. To my mind they should just as well indulge in "War in the Orion Nebula" as "War in the Pacific"

The way Japanese R&D factories are set up in stock AE was neccessary for the Japanese AI to work properly, not to give the Japanese side a bonus.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Historically, Japan's R&D efforts were pretty pathetic. So the ONLY justification for this is that you are a JFB and want more toys to play with. If you are playing against the AI, and are incompetent enough to need the help, go ahead. But against a real opponent, you better check with him before you try this. He may want some "fantasy nonsense" of his own in return (like working US Torpedoes).

This is a pretty harsh statement. Especially since I asked for other's opnions on the subject. Also considering you know nothing about me and how I play the game, I think your assumptions are unfounded about whether I am incompetent or not.

You asked for opinions..., I offered mine. There is no historical justification for what you proposed, so it's purely a matter of personal preference against the AI..., and something to be discussed with a real opponent.

I did ask for opnions on the proposal, not on my personal abilities on playing the game or not. So I feel that is what was uncalled for and unnecessary.

You also state there is no historical reason for Japanese R&D factories to start the game fully repaired. Really? So on 12/7, Japan just decided to turn these on after being idle until the war broke out? So Japan builds a factory to do research before the war and leaves it mothballed until the war breaks out and then they have to unmothball it or once they have their current starting planes, they stop all additional researce, put the plants in mothballs, and then turn them back on once the war starts. Either of these scenerio's are absurd.

R&D of anything is a continous process. The first version of the A6M2 flew on Jan '40, the next model on Nov '40 and the A6M3 in mid-42. So historically the factories develping these planes were not damaged or turned off as the game protrays. They were in continous operation from before 1940 all the way through the end of the war. So there is NO historical justification for these being turned off.

Is is a game mechnic nothing more to have these start off damaged. In which case, against the AI, turing these on may case issues since it may adversely affect the AI scripts. Against a human, it is something that should be discussed.

Again there seems to be a disconnect between people wanting exact historical features in the game, yet seem fine with having factories start damaged when they were not. Of course this means that the R&D system in the game is modeled in a way to provide Japan better R&D capabilities than they had in RL. So due the the coding of the game, you can have the R&D factories repaired against a human (which is historical) and accept an improved Japanese R&D program (ahistorical) or leave the factories damaged (ahistorical) and have the game's current R&D program function as is (still ahistorical, but not as bad).

So it is still just a choice between players as to which one they think would make a better game for them to play. Which in my mind does not need any personal comments about the poster.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Numdydar



This is a pretty harsh statement. Especially since I asked for other's opnions on the subject. Also considering you know nothing about me and how I play the game, I think your assumptions are unfounded about whether I am incompetent or not.

You asked for opinions..., I offered mine. There is no historical justification for what you proposed, so it's purely a matter of personal preference against the AI..., and something to be discussed with a real opponent.

I did ask for opnions on the proposal, not on my personal abilities on playing the game or not. So I feel that is what was uncalled for and unnecessary.

You also state there is no historical reason for Japanese R&D factories to start the game fully repaired. Really? So on 12/7, Japan just decided to turn these on after being idle until the war broke out? So Japan builds a factory to do research before the war and leaves it mothballed until the war breaks out and then they have to unmothball it or once they have their current starting planes, they stop all additional researce, put the plants in mothballs, and then turn them back on once the war starts. Either of these scenerio's are absurd.

R&D of anything is a continous process. The first version of the A6M2 flew on Jan '40, the next model on Nov '40 and the A6M3 in mid-42. So historically the factories develping these planes were not damaged or turned off as the game protrays. They were in continous operation from before 1940 all the way through the end of the war. So there is NO historical justification for these being turned off.

Is is a game mechnic nothing more to have these start off damaged. In which case, against the AI, turing these on may case issues since it may adversely affect the AI scripts. Against a human, it is something that should be discussed.

Again there seems to be a disconnect between people wanting exact historical features in the game, yet seem fine with having factories start damaged when they were not. Of course this means that the R&D system in the game is modeled in a way to provide Japan better R&D capabilities than they had in RL. So due the the coding of the game, you can have the R&D factories repaired against a human (which is historical) and accept an improved Japanese R&D program (ahistorical) or leave the factories damaged (ahistorical) and have the game's current R&D program function as is (still ahistorical, but not as bad).

So it is still just a choice between players as to which one they think would make a better game for them to play. Which in my mind does not need any personal comments about the poster.

The point is, from a historical perspective, R&D factories did not exist [8|]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1




You asked for opinions..., I offered mine. There is no historical justification for what you proposed, so it's purely a matter of personal preference against the AI..., and something to be discussed with a real opponent.

I did ask for opnions on the proposal, not on my personal abilities on playing the game or not. So I feel that is what was uncalled for and unnecessary.

You also state there is no historical reason for Japanese R&D factories to start the game fully repaired. Really? So on 12/7, Japan just decided to turn these on after being idle until the war broke out? So Japan builds a factory to do research before the war and leaves it mothballed until the war breaks out and then they have to unmothball it or once they have their current starting planes, they stop all additional researce, put the plants in mothballs, and then turn them back on once the war starts. Either of these scenerio's are absurd.

R&D of anything is a continous process. The first version of the A6M2 flew on Jan '40, the next model on Nov '40 and the A6M3 in mid-42. So historically the factories develping these planes were not damaged or turned off as the game protrays. They were in continous operation from before 1940 all the way through the end of the war. So there is NO historical justification for these being turned off.

Is is a game mechnic nothing more to have these start off damaged. In which case, against the AI, turing these on may case issues since it may adversely affect the AI scripts. Against a human, it is something that should be discussed.

Again there seems to be a disconnect between people wanting exact historical features in the game, yet seem fine with having factories start damaged when they were not. Of course this means that the R&D system in the game is modeled in a way to provide Japan better R&D capabilities than they had in RL. So due the the coding of the game, you can have the R&D factories repaired against a human (which is historical) and accept an improved Japanese R&D program (ahistorical) or leave the factories damaged (ahistorical) and have the game's current R&D program function as is (still ahistorical, but not as bad).

So it is still just a choice between players as to which one they think would make a better game for them to play. Which in my mind does not need any personal comments about the poster.

The point is, from a historical perspective, R&D factories did not exist [8|]

Which is a valid point, historically-speaking. However, from a "this game is fun to play because the Japanese guy has a chance to do better than history" standpoint... I like having the R&D factories. It allows the IJ player to devote resources to R&D if he chooses, even though Japan didn't so so historically.

Conceptually, it's not far removed from the Japanese player invading things in a different order or invading different/more difficult places. Or developing different bases into major hubs of operations. It's all a matter of resource allocation, even if aircraft R&D happens to be a no-brainer thing to do as far as the game engine is concerned.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar



Again there seems to be a disconnect between people wanting exact historical features in the game, yet seem fine with having factories start damaged when they were not.

My guess is that they weren't damaged because they didn't exist yet, and the game compensated by having them exist at the beginning with damage, so they wouldn't get up and running for a while. I'll be interested to see your evidence that each and every R&D factory portrayed in the game was up and running on 12/7/41. When I see it, I'll have to recalculate what I view as reality, but I'll be wondering why the Japanese were unable to create any more factories after 12/7/41. Must be because they were all built already, I guess.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1




You asked for opinions..., I offered mine. There is no historical justification for what you proposed, so it's purely a matter of personal preference against the AI..., and something to be discussed with a real opponent.

I did ask for opnions on the proposal, not on my personal abilities on playing the game or not. So I feel that is what was uncalled for and unnecessary.

You also state there is no historical reason for Japanese R&D factories to start the game fully repaired. Really? So on 12/7, Japan just decided to turn these on after being idle until the war broke out? So Japan builds a factory to do research before the war and leaves it mothballed until the war breaks out and then they have to unmothball it or once they have their current starting planes, they stop all additional researce, put the plants in mothballs, and then turn them back on once the war starts. Either of these scenerio's are absurd.

R&D of anything is a continous process. The first version of the A6M2 flew on Jan '40, the next model on Nov '40 and the A6M3 in mid-42. So historically the factories develping these planes were not damaged or turned off as the game protrays. They were in continous operation from before 1940 all the way through the end of the war. So there is NO historical justification for these being turned off.

Is is a game mechnic nothing more to have these start off damaged. In which case, against the AI, turing these on may case issues since it may adversely affect the AI scripts. Against a human, it is something that should be discussed.

Again there seems to be a disconnect between people wanting exact historical features in the game, yet seem fine with having factories start damaged when they were not. Of course this means that the R&D system in the game is modeled in a way to provide Japan better R&D capabilities than they had in RL. So due the the coding of the game, you can have the R&D factories repaired against a human (which is historical) and accept an improved Japanese R&D program (ahistorical) or leave the factories damaged (ahistorical) and have the game's current R&D program function as is (still ahistorical, but not as bad).

So it is still just a choice between players as to which one they think would make a better game for them to play. Which in my mind does not need any personal comments about the poster.

The point is, from a historical perspective, R&D factories did not exist [8|]

EXACTLY! Their existence in the game (damaged) is purely a game design mechanic to make certain historical developments happen at the approximately correct times. And I didn't say anything about your personal abilities..., I simply questioned any player's need for additional advantages when beating up on the AI....

[Amoral]

So what is Japan allowed to do without discussing it with the Allied player? Mike's complaint here seems to be "this made Japan stronger than they were historically, and only hindsight lets you know that plane RD is important". But If that is the rule for what Japan can and cannot do, then all sorts of things need to be discussed.

In scenario one Japan has to make tradeoffs to have an advanced RD program. And the whole point of scenario two is that it gives Japan options they did not have historically. I would argue that if the allied player wants to take options off the table from Japan, that they should be the ones to bring it up, and that they would be expected to make concessions.

[Amoral]

So what is Japan allowed to do without discussing it with the Allied player? Mike's complaint here seems to be "this made Japan stronger than they were historically, and only hindsight lets you know that plane RD is important". But If that is the rule for what Japan can and cannot do, then all sorts of things need to be discussed.

In scenario one Japan has to make tradeoffs to have an advanced RD program. And the whole point of scenario two is that it gives Japan options they did not have historically. I would argue that if the allied player wants to take options off the table from Japan, that they should be the ones to bring it up, and that they would be expected to make concessions.

Demanding japan not use resources to research planes is like insisting Japan not use their extra resources to invade India. An invasion of India seems even more far fetched to me than having the A7 Sam developed in time to be useful.

[geofflambert]

Amoral, I think what is being said is that stay out of the editor unless you're making a mod. Some people may like your mod and want to play it with you. Just don't do it without informing your partner(s) first. Otherwise anything goes unless you've agreed to some house rules prohibiting certain things. I haven't heard of any house rule keeping a player from running his R&D as he sees fit.

Of course there's also the preferences "Player defined updates on/off" and "Realistic R&D on/off" which you must agree on.

[Amoral]

Ah right. I had forgotten the thread was about messing with the starting state of the factories, rather than about RD in general.

[Numdydar]

Here is a link that discusses in great detail about the Nakajima Aircraft Industries factories. These plants were in operation, both to produce production planes and engines and work on new prototypes before and throughout the entire war. During the war these were expanded further (both production and R&D areas which of course you can do in game as well). So the Japanese actually DID have research and development ongoing at the start of the war. Whether these are actual 'factories' or not really does not matter since the point is that R&D was continously being done versus having to 'fix' something before any R&D can be accomplished. Technically expansion of an R&D facility should not completely stop R&D either, but that is way beyond what the WitP model can do in its present state [:)]
 
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-1e.html

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

If you are playing against the AI, and are incompetent enough to need the help, go ahead. But against a real opponent, you better check with him before you try this. He may want some "fantasy nonsense" of his own in return (like working US Torpedoes).

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

EXACTLY! Their existence in the game (damaged) is purely a game design mechanic to make certain historical developments happen at the approximately correct times. And I didn't say anything about your personal abilities..., I simply questioned any player's need for additional advantages when beating up on the AI....

The bolding above is added by me for emphasis.

I happen to disagree with you "I did not say anything about your personal ablities" since your earlier quote seems pretty direct about "and are incompetent enough" Stating I am incompetent simply because I think R&D factories should be repaired at the start of the game sure seems like a comment about my personal abilities to me. If you can explain how it is not a personal comment, I am certainly willing to listen.