initial Japanese factory damage

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Here is a link that discusses in great detail about the Nakajima Aircraft Industries factories. These plants were in operation, both to produce production planes and engines and work on new prototypes before and throughout the entire war. During the war these were expanded further (both production and R&D areas which of course you can do in game as well). So the Japanese actually DID have research and development ongoing at the start of the war. Whether these are actual 'factories' or not really does not matter since the point is that R&D was continously being done versus having to 'fix' something before any R&D can be accomplished. Technically expansion of an R&D facility should not completely stop R&D either, but that is way beyond what the WitP model can do in its present state [:)]

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-1e.html

It's just an abstraction we have to deal with. No game is perfect.

Thanks for the link.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

If you are playing against the AI, and are incompetent enough to need the help, go ahead. But against a real opponent, you better check with him before you try this. He may want some "fantasy nonsense" of his own in return (like working US Torpedoes).

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

EXACTLY! Their existence in the game (damaged) is purely a game design mechanic to make certain historical developments happen at the approximately correct times. And I didn't say anything about your personal abilities..., I simply questioned any player's need for additional advantages when beating up on the AI....

The bolding above is added by me for emphasis.

I happen to disagree with you "I did not say anything about your personal ablities" since your earlier quote seems pretty direct about "and are incompetent enough" Stating I am incompetent simply because I think R&D factories should be repaired at the start of the game sure seems like a comment about my personal abilities to me. If you can explain how it is not a personal comment, I am certainly willing to listen.

You are ignoring the implied "if you" in the sentence. "If you are playing against the AI, and (if you) are incompetent enough to need the help, go ahead. The point being that the AI (despite Andy's best efforts) isn't really much of an opponent in the long term..., which makes giving yourself any additional benefits rather pointless. Sorry if you took it wrong..., it was simply an observation that it's the AI that needs help, not the player.

[Numdydar]

Cool. Then I am fine with that [:)]. Thanks for taking the time to explain it in more detail as it helped me understand your comment better.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Here is a link that discusses in great detail about the Nakajima Aircraft Industries factories. These plants were in operation, both to produce production planes and engines and work on new prototypes before and throughout the entire war. During the war these were expanded further (both production and R&D areas which of course you can do in game as well). So the Japanese actually DID have research and development ongoing at the start of the war. Whether these are actual 'factories' or not really does not matter since the point is that R&D was continously being done versus having to 'fix' something before any R&D can be accomplished. Technically expansion of an R&D facility should not completely stop R&D either, but that is way beyond what the WitP model can do in its present state [:)]

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-1e.html

It's just an abstraction we have to deal with. No game is perfect.

Thanks for the link.

Exactly. So players can discuss if having R&D repaired of not before a game is something they want to do or not. If not that is fine. But regardless, everyone should have the backgraound to make an informed decision to accept the abstraction or not [:)]

[erstad]

Something I haven't seen mentioned is that the Japanese R&D goes along just fine with no R&D factories. New models of planes come on-line at appointed times without a single "R&D factory" being needed. It's certainly true that R&D was going on at various levels and various places, but that's already abstracted into the plane availability schedule.

[Numdydar]

That is hard coded into the game so if you do nothing, you will get the plane at the historical date. So if you really want an historical game use Scenerio 1, leave the R&D factories as damaged, play with PDU Off, and do not expand any R&D factories. However, I would only play this against the AI. I would have no issue playing Scenerio 2 as Japan with PDU Off with another person though.
 
My comments and suggestions were more for playing Scen 2 with PDU On as you have already gone into alternative history territory [:)]. So looking for a historical timeline/events using Scenerio 2 is already thrown out the window. So what is a little more R&D capability when added to that setup? [:D]

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: erstad

Something I haven't seen mentioned is that the Japanese R&D goes along just fine with no R&D factories. New models of planes come on-line at appointed times without a single "R&D factory" being needed. It's certainly true that R&D was going on at various levels and various places, but that's already abstracted into the plane availability schedule.

I think another way to look at it is that the R&D "factories" are production factories for the future models where you would otherwise have to convert existing factories from making something you may also want to this new aircraft. Most of the future models that have no R&D factory will be produced by factories making an earlier version such as A6M5 to A6M5b. There are a few models which have no factories assigned to them either R&D or conversion, but some of these are debatable as to whether you should bother with them anyway. I'm thinking another factor to be kept in mind in all this is whether the city hosting your potential factories has sufficient manpower to produce the quantities you're interested in.

[Numdydar]

I assume when you discuss manpower you are not refering to the manpower pool. It is one thing to put a gun in someone's hand and tell them to fight versus that person to be able to work in a factory and build planes. While some factory skills are pretty basic, most Japanese planes were not made on an assembly line, but more done as an individual project. Which of course is why even the same make and model of plane had diffeences between them it they were built at different locations.
 
So I agree, that some sort of further division is needed of manpower as Japan is never in any danger of running out of that resource the way it is currently modeled lol.

[Reg]

ORIGINAL: obvert

To have R n D that the Japanese player can control is a fairly big plus as it works now. There is no need for more. As a game feature it's very fun and it's one of the reasons I've really enjoyed playing the Japanese side, but it's far too easy as is to get planes very early. Thinking in some kind of realistic (historical) terms, why are we getting any planes early at all?

I love it because I may get to try out planes that never made it into combat, but it's certainly odd that when I play Japan I can get a plane 6-12 months ahead of schedule while if i play the Allies I sit and wait for P-51Ds until late 44.

Maybe we are approaching this all wrong. What if the arrival dates of new models were pushed back by 3-6 months to force the Empire player to use R&D to make them appear on anything like the historical dates. I believe this would be closer to the historical reality than the current situation.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Reg

ORIGINAL: obvert

To have R n D that the Japanese player can control is a fairly big plus as it works now. There is no need for more. As a game feature it's very fun and it's one of the reasons I've really enjoyed playing the Japanese side, but it's far too easy as is to get planes very early. Thinking in some kind of realistic (historical) terms, why are we getting any planes early at all?

I love it because I may get to try out planes that never made it into combat, but it's certainly odd that when I play Japan I can get a plane 6-12 months ahead of schedule while if i play the Allies I sit and wait for P-51Ds until late 44.

Maybe we are approaching this all wrong. What if the arrival dates of new models were pushed back by 3-6 months to force the Empire player to use R&D to make them appear on anything like the historical dates. I believe this would be closer to the historical reality than the current situation.

+1

A fantastic idea! This way you could still choose to get something early, but most often you would get it on time, and if you don't prioritize it shows up later than historical. Most planes would be in the last category for most players, and that would perfectly simulate the fact that they've made choices to alter what the Japanese did during the war and use those resources to push planes that are better for objective and subjective reasons.

In this kind of a scenario, and I'd choose 3 months off of historical, the IJ player would have some really tough but good decisions. You'd still get the best planes ahead by 2-3 months if you chose to do that, but you couldn't have them all.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Reg

ORIGINAL: obvert

To have R n D that the Japanese player can control is a fairly big plus as it works now. There is no need for more. As a game feature it's very fun and it's one of the reasons I've really enjoyed playing the Japanese side, but it's far too easy as is to get planes very early. Thinking in some kind of realistic (historical) terms, why are we getting any planes early at all?

I love it because I may get to try out planes that never made it into combat, but it's certainly odd that when I play Japan I can get a plane 6-12 months ahead of schedule while if i play the Allies I sit and wait for P-51Ds until late 44.

Maybe we are approaching this all wrong. What if the arrival dates of new models were pushed back by 3-6 months to force the Empire player to use R&D to make them appear on anything like the historical dates. I believe this would be closer to the historical reality than the current situation.

+1

A fantastic idea! This way you could still choose to get something early, but most often you would get it on time, and if you don't prioritize it shows up later than historical. Most planes would be in the last category for most players, and that would perfectly simulate the fact that they've made choices to alter what the Japanese did during the war and use those resources to push planes that are better for objective and subjective reasons.

In this kind of a scenario, and I'd choose 3 months off of historical, the IJ player would have some really tough but good decisions. You'd still get the best planes ahead by 2-3 months if you chose to do that, but you couldn't have them all.

That's what I have done in the mod that I am playing with Fionn(Nemo121). Each year adds a month as well (F,DB,TB as well as some LB) as not having more than 2 jumps or out of series advancement. Makes life very tough to have to actually R&D to get them on the date designed..

[Numdydar]

This is a great idea. Or course in a perfect world [:)], you could actually design the specific's of the plane you wanted to research, like speed, guns, etc. Minor changes, like upgraded guns, would not take too long to research, but a completly new new plane type (or a major redesign) would take a lot longer. Of course there would be a need for the Allies to either do this too or have the engine modify the Allied planes to match or exceed what the Japanese did. Since a lot of Allied plane development was based on their experiences in the war. So in other words a completely new game [:D]