Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper)

[smokindave34]

Turn 7 (Crimea area)

There also isn't a singe Red army soldier guarding the approches to the Crimea. I make one hasty attack with III PZ corps to break down a fort held by a weak Cavalry unit. 11th army is just about at the river line.

[Shupov]

Why not move next to D-Town and Z-Town to pin down their factories? I'm guessing some are still there on T7.

[Flaviusx]

On turn 7? I expect they'd be long gone by that point. They would be for me. It only takes about 10 turns to strip the south clean all the way up to Voronezh and Rostov. At this stage of the game I'd be working on the Stalino complex.

[Ketza]

Nice AAR.

What is really showing in this AAR is how the new morale rules benefit the Soviet player in a huge way. MT is correct that morale adjustments should be made to compensate for the huge difference in Soviet CV with the higher morale. Combine that with the 1-1 2-1 rule and its a very tough go for an Axis player during the most important part of the campaign. Toss in a bad weather roll or 2 and well you know....

[smokindave34]

ORIGINAL: Shupov

Why not move next to D-Town and Z-Town to pin down their factories? I'm guessing some are still there on T7.

Shupov - FLaviusx is correct, the factories in D/Z town have been gone for a few turns now. There is still plenty in Kharkov/Stalino area but I expect they may be gone by the time I make it there. At least if I can threaten them Sapper may have to divert some rail resources to moving factories instead of railing troops to the front.

[smokindave34]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Nice AAR.

What is really showing in this AAR is how the new morale rules benefit the Soviet player in a huge way. MT is correct that morale adjustments should be made to compensate for the huge difference in Soviet CV with the higher morale. Combine that with the 1-1 2-1 rule and its a very tough go for an Axis player during the most important part of the campaign. Toss in a bad weather roll or 2 and well you know....

Thanks Ketza. Sapper's high defensive CV's have really limited my ability to open up any breathing room for my panzers. Hopefully now that things are moving in the south I can do some damage to the Red army.

[Flaviusx]

Ketza, you could always go for that Romanian cheese.

There are lots of problems in 41. From my perspective the game is borked as of turn 1. Some Axis players around here are getting a bit spoiled, I think, when they consider this to be the defining problem of 1941. Is Soviet morale too high in 41 now? Yes. But that's an issue we arrive at only after the nonsense of the opening turn, which pretty much invalidates the entire campaign.

I can't even stomach PBEM anymore as a result of this. I'm tired of how grossly ahistorical 41 is. People have quietly accepted a bunch of absurdities and are only now getting irritated about this morale thing for the Soviets. There's a lot of selective outrage going on here about this.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

Yah the tactic of constant ant attacks to lower fatigue and ammo is an old one. I used it against the Neva line in my first mp game. I attacked across the Neva with 9 hasty attacks to weaken the defender before hitting it with everything I had. Its cheesy but in a week at a time game I still believe its a valid tactic. Hopefully the overall morale gain makes it worth it to the defender.

This has no effect at all any more.

It simply blows up the defenders morale now.

To cross the river you have to make 2 DH's and not a bunch of HA's.

This cheese ball tactic has been nerfed. I had 5 on-going games and in 3 SHC player was using this tactic after nerf it became an epic failure tactic.

Sapper is simply wasting me and morale on a nerfed cheesy tactic

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I've long felt that low odds attacks should result in no fatigue or ammo reduction for the defender. Anything below 1:1. Just a straight up simple rule here. The attempts to reign this in to date have been overcomplicated and ineffective.

Launching a series of weak and uncoordinated attacks ought to be punished and not rewarded. That still leaves you with bombing cheese, though, but that at least can be held down to a dull roar with house rules which it seems most everybody is using now.

Its been nerfed alrdy.

1v1=2v1 should be removed and -5 to SHC morale.

If you can't win as SHC now your a newbie.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

ORIGINAL: Shupov

Why not move next to D-Town and Z-Town to pin down their factories? I'm guessing some are still there on T7.

Shupov - FLaviusx is correct, the factories in D/Z town have been gone for a few turns now. There is still plenty in Kharkov/Stalino area but I expect they may be gone by the time I make it there. At least if I can threaten them Sapper may have to divert some rail resources to moving factories instead of railing troops to the front.

arm pts are window dressing and have been for 18 months. Its simply not possible to get 80+ arm pts any more.

GHC has to destroy at least 50 arm pts, but need 80 for a long run win based on arm pt crunch. Its simply not possible to destroy that many vs anything other then a complete newbie.

A 211 turn draw is only possible if GHC farms morale(41), runs during blizzard and hits allot of manpower centers. GHC has to stay on the offensive until 10/42 retaking manpower center, destoring atleast 100 SHC divisions.
Then he must change over to defensive set up by October 1942 and become a punching bag for 3 yrs.

[Ketza]

All I can say is one of the most enjoyable games I have has in a long time is the one I am currently in against Bigbaba. Due to recent developments I gave the Axis a +10 morale modifier.

It has been a rather enjoyable contest and I wish I had done an AAR at this point. Bigbaba is a solid opponent and the game is very close to a historical outcome. We just finished Blizzard and the casualties are 3.5 million Soviet vrs 950k for Axis. 1942 will be a hoot I am sure.

Granted I do not have the logistical expertise of MT but the morale feels right in this game and I think its a big factor in the game being more competitive.

Oh and I must point out I did not do a Lvow pocket in this game and Bigbaba chose to fight in the south.

[Flaviusx]

That actually sounds like fun, Ketza, but how many people are willing to play it out in the south the way it's supposed to be? On both sides, really. You have to have an Axis player willing to forgo the opener and a Soviet willing to fight it out in the south and not run to the hills (which is perfectly doable without the opener, btw.)

Everybody has settled into this hackneyed and ahistorical way of playing the game which for me at least ruins the immersion. But I salute what you and Bigbaba have done. It sounds like a reasonable approximation of history, including the casualties.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

That actually sounds like fun, Ketza, but how many people are willing to play it out in the south the way it's supposed to be? On both sides, really. You have to have an Axis player willing to forgo the opener and a Soviet willing to fight it out in the south and not run to the hills (which is perfectly doable without the opener, btw.)

Everybody has settled into this hackneyed and ahistorical way of playing the game which for me at least ruins the immersion. But I salute what you and Bigbaba have done. It sounds like a reasonable approximation of history, including the casualties.

There is nothing unhistorical about the "what if" Lvov opennning.

Historical? what the game must go 100% historical or it is a poj?

You can't throw out Stalin's stupid everyone at the border/offensive strategy. It was his idea as soon as he murdered most of the generals with any smarts from 1936-1938

He had a WW 1 mind set which is clear by his strategy.

2by3 designed a game of "what ifs" I was Hitler or Stalin based from June 22 1941 - July 45, not 1936 - July 45.

Live with it. It is by design.

[Flaviusx]

Pelton, what we know as the Lvov opening is purely an artifact of game design. Indeed, this is the only game on the subject, either on a computer or old school board games, that produces anything like this result. It is ridiculous. It completely distorts the 1941 campaign in this game and introduces a wholly unbelievable dynamic to it. I sincerely hope it goes away in WITE2.

[KamilS]

Don't get me wrong, I think game is imbalanced in Soviet favour, but I agree with Flaviusx.

Lvov pocket spoils game. It leaves Red Army crippled, forcing Soviet player to run away and creates need for artificial increase of Red Army strength.

Unfortunately removing pocket from the game would unbalance it even further - even if Soviet can fight they don't have to. It is enough for them to survive and grind German down in '43 and '44. Without Lvov gambit outcome of the game will be known by turn 10th or so - if Russians don't suffer any disasters by then then Axis fate is sealed.




About house rules preventing retreat.

Personally I would like to play with even more SD rules than now (checks in August and February), but I would refuse game when German player can enter Romanian territory before activation of Romanian forces.


For me most interesting game would be one with very strict SD checks, limited usage of rail cap for troops transferring purpose and no fuel resupplying by air.

[Ketza]

It is certainly a risk the Axis player faces if he does not do the Lvow pocket opening and the Soviet runs for the hills. Or actually the big fat river is a more exact term

As far as the Axis player moving extra troops to Rumania I have no issue with this. When I played the boardgame FITE moving a Panzer corps to Rumania was a standard move for my Axis team. iT was the only way to loosen that front up. Most Soviet players usually run from the Rumanian border in this game so its not a big issue as the Panzer coprs is usually punching at air.

[smokindave34]

I've really started to enjoy playing as axis but it seems as though the axis player has to have a spectacular turn 1 to really have a good chance of defeating his Soviet opponent. That is too bad really as I enjoy playing into '44-45 (my favorite time period) and it would be a shame if one bad turn would seal the deal on the next 150-200 turns.

I'd certainly be open to not performing the Lvov opening, if my Soviet opponent decided to fight forward in the south (and not transfer units from the south to Leningrad/Moscow). I'm just not sure how specific to get with house rules to make this happen - probably some sort of SD point count for the major cities in the south.

[Michael T]

I'd certainly be open to not performing the Lvov opening, if my Soviet opponent decided to fight forward in the south (and not transfer units from the south to Leningrad/Moscow). I'm just not sure how specific to get with house rules to make this happen - probably some sort of SD point count for the major cities in the south.

+1

[Peltonx]

Arm pts are locked and can't move or hvy is something other then window dressing.

The economic part of the game is a joke really.

Its all about morale and manpower centers.

[carlkay58]

Just a note. Historically four Soviet armies were sent north from the south. One helped in the defense of Leningrad while the other three formed the backbone of the initial Smolensk counter attack.