AI for MWiF - USSR

[Centuur]

True. And the hex is woods too. However: Zhukov in Vladisvostok means that that city is going to be surrounded or cut off from oil resources by the Japanese, making the city one huge PoW camp. And Zhukov out of harms way, means that automatically the Euroaxis should try for a Barbarossa as soon as possible (at least give the impression that they are building for one, so the USSR can't put units to use to capture Manchuria. This than makes the USSR vulnerable in Siberia).

And that's exactly how things should be. The USSR can't affort to set up Zhukov in Vladivostok, since that is an invitation for Japan to attack the USSR. At the same time the opposite is also true: if the USSR set up Zhukov on the Manchurian-USSR border, that means that the Japanese will have to divert forces to that area from China, therefore inviting them to DoW the USSR and take Vladivostok.

Therefore it is better as the USSR not to put Zhukov close to the Japanese territories, therefore telegraphing that he hasn't any idea's with going to war with the Japanese. A USSR - Japanese war isn't in the interest of both parties. If there is peace in that area, the USSR can prepare for Barbarossa and the Japanese can focus in China. That's the best solution for both countries IMHO.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


or Russia could take out Iraq first .. that really simple

The USSR has no common border with Iraq.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It is Japan that must issue the DOW because if the turn ends with Russians in Tehran and Persia conquered, then the Japanese must leave because they are not at war with the conqueror - per the Conquest rules. They get to use the oil they are sitting on for one turn only.

As Japan I always keep a couple Divs and SCS in Canton/Hainan, to be ready for this specific purpose.

The most secure way to take out Persia is a Russian attack from the north with the CW landing on the coast in the south. Expensive US Entry-wise, but secure.

Correct, production step before peace step.

And it will take Japan 4 Tankers per oil to get them from Persia to Japan.

ORIGINAL: Centuur
True. And the hex is woods too. However: Zhukov in Vladisvostok means that that city is going to be surrounded or cut off from oil resources by the Japanese, making the city one huge PoW camp. And Zhukov out of harms way, means that automatically the Euroaxis should try for a Barbarossa as soon as possible (at least give the impression that they are building for one, so the USSR can't put units to use to capture Manchuria. This than makes the USSR vulnerable in Siberia).

And that's exactly how things should be. The USSR can't effort to set up Zhukov in Vladivostok, since that is an invitation for Japan to attack the USSR. At the same time the opposite is also true: if the USSR set up Zhukov on the Manchurian-USSR border, that means that the Japanese will have to divert forces to that area from China, therefore inviting them to DoW the USSR and take Vladivostok.

Therefore it is better as the USSR not to put Zhukov close to the Japanese territories, therefore telegraphing that he hasn't any idea's with going to war with the Japanese. A USSR - Japanese war isn't in the interest of both parties. If there is peace in that area, the USSR can prepare for Barbarossa and the Japanese can focus in China. That's the best solution for both countries IMHO.

Have the maps changed?

The map I posted shows Vladisvostok is in a clear hex.

If you put Zhukov away from the border isn't that more of an invitation for Japan to Dow the USSR?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It is Japan that must issue the DOW because if the turn ends with Russians in Tehran and Persia conquered, then the Japanese must leave because they are not at war with the conqueror - per the Conquest rules. They get to use the oil they are sitting on for one turn only.

As Japan I always keep a couple Divs and SCS in Canton/Hainan, to be ready for this specific purpose.

The most secure way to take out Persia is a Russian attack from the north with the CW landing on the coast in the south. Expensive US Entry-wise, but secure.

Correct, production step before peace step.

And it will take Japan 4 Tankers per oil to get them from Persia to Japan.

ORIGINAL: Centuur
True. And the hex is woods too. However: Zhukov in Vladisvostok means that that city is going to be surrounded or cut off from oil resources by the Japanese, making the city one huge PoW camp. And Zhukov out of harms way, means that automatically the Euroaxis should try for a Barbarossa as soon as possible (at least give the impression that they are building for one, so the USSR can't put units to use to capture Manchuria. This than makes the USSR vulnerable in Siberia).

And that's exactly how things should be. The USSR can't effort to set up Zhukov in Vladivostok, since that is an invitation for Japan to attack the USSR. At the same time the opposite is also true: if the USSR set up Zhukov on the Manchurian-USSR border, that means that the Japanese will have to divert forces to that area from China, therefore inviting them to DoW the USSR and take Vladivostok.

Therefore it is better as the USSR not to put Zhukov close to the Japanese territories, therefore telegraphing that he hasn't any idea's with going to war with the Japanese. A USSR - Japanese war isn't in the interest of both parties. If there is peace in that area, the USSR can prepare for Barbarossa and the Japanese can focus in China. That's the best solution for both countries IMHO.

Have the maps changed?

The map I posted shows Vladisvostok is in a clear hex.

If you put Zhukov away from the border isn't that more of an invitation for Japan to Dow the USSR?

The map you referenced is correct for MWIF. Vladivostok is in a Clear hex.

---

Declaring war on a major power (or even a minor country for that matter) shouldn't be based solely on the tactical advantage of the surprise impulse. You have to think at least 1 year out, and possibly more. If the DOW puts the major power into the war, then their production is substantially affected. Even if they were already at war, the DOW would given them unrestricted gearing limits for the turn. Trade agreements, threats to resources and their overseas pipelines, and how it affects your allies usually come into play.

So positioning Zhukov off the coast might induce the Japanese to DOW the USSR, but the question arises as to what that DOW does do to US Entry, the USSR Pacific submarines being active against Japanese convoys, the vulnerable Manchurian border and resources therein, how Germany feels about the DOW (they'll love it), ...

In many war games I've left tempting fruit dangle in front of my opponent (but I draw the line at saying "Oh no!" after I finish my turn[:D]). If they don't see the bear trap beneath the bait, then it will be a learning experience for them.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Declaring war on a major power (or even a minor country for that matter) shouldn't be based solely on the tactical advantage of the surprise impulse. You have to think at least 1 year out, and possibly more. If the DOW puts the major power into the war, then their production is substantially affected. Even if they were already at war, the DOW would given them unrestricted gearing limits for the turn. Trade agreements, threats to resources and their overseas pipelines, and how it affects your allies usually come into play.

In most cases you are correct about production but not in the case of the USSR vs. Japan in Siberia.

13.6.3 Production multiples
Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if there is an in supply enemy unit in the major power¹s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if an enemy unit took part during the turn in a land attack (not overrun) against any friendly land unit (including partisans and notional units) in the major power¹s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

[Extraneous]

You have all presented good plans that were well thought out but here is something for you all to think about.

6. Initiative Stage
In this stage you work out which side has the initiative. This affects who has the first impulse and who goes first in various other activities. Once you have the initiative, you keep it until this stage of next turn.

6.1 Determining initiative
Each side rolls a die. The space the marker occupies on the initiative track will give one side or the other a modifier (except in the middle space).

The side with the higher modified roll wins the initiative. If tied, the side that has the initiative from the previous turn loses.

The initiative track will indicate if you can demand a re-roll. If any active major power on a side demands a re-roll, move the marker one space towards the other side’s end of the track. Both sides now re-roll (with the new modifiers). The re-roll stands - there can be no further re-rolls.

Turn the marker to the side that has won the initiative.

9. Declaring war
9.3 Compulsory declarations
Germany must declare war on Poland in the first impulse of any game that starts in Sep/Oct 1939. No major power may make any other declaration of war in that impulse.

France and the Commonwealth must declare war on Germany on their first impulse after Germany has declared war on Poland. No major power may make any other declarations of war in that impulse.

The Axis has the initiative (Axis initiative modifier is +2) so the Axis must set up first.

Does anyone want to present a Japanese plan of attack on the USSR without the USSR setting up first?

Japanese Force Pools
1 (0) x MECH (5th Arm MECH 6-6)
1 (1) x MOT (2nd MOT 5-5)
1 (0) x MTN (1st MTN 5-4)
2 (2 and 1 division) x MAR (Imperial. Guard MAR 6-3, SNLF MAR 4-4, and 2nd SNLF MAR division 1-4)
9 (6) x INF (INF 4-3 ~ 18th and 27th
INF 5-3 ~ 2nd and 20th
INF 5-4 ~ 12th and 23rd
INF 6-3 ~ 6th and 11th
INF 8-3 ~ 25th)
1 (0) x PARA (1st PARA division 1-3)
10 (4) x MIL (China ~ Nanking MIL 4-2
Formosa ~ Taihoku MIL 2-2
3 (3) x GAR (28th GAR 4-1, 29th GAR 3-1, and 33rd GAR 4-1)
Korea ~ Seoul MIL 3-2
Manchuria ~ Harbin MIL 4-2
Japan ~ Fukouka MIL 4-2, Hiroshima MIL 5-3, Kyoto MIL 3-3, Nagoya MIL 5-2, Osaka MIL 5-3, and Tokyo MIL 6-2)
1 (1) x ENG division (1st ENG 1-3)
3 (3) x GUN (40mm AA 2-3, 70mm ART 2-3, and 105mm ART 3-2)

Japan
Yamamoto HQ-I (8-(4)-3)
1x MIL
2x MAR (Imperial Guard MAR 6-3 and SNLF MAR 4-4)
1x GUN
1x ENG

Manchuria, Korea
Terauchi HQ-I (6-(2)-3)
1x MOT (2nd MOT 5-5)
1x MIL
1x GAR
1x CAV

China or Hainan
Umezu HQ-I (5-(3)-3)
5x INF
2x MIL
2x GAR
2x GUN
2x INF division

3 (2) x FTR 2
3 (2) x LND 2

Asia/Pacific
1x INF
1x MAR division (2nd SNLF MAR division 1-4)

2 (1) x NAV 2
1 (1) x NAV 1

Aircraft Carriers ~ Akagi, Hiryu, Kaga, Ryujo, and Soryu
Light Aircraft Carrier ~ Hosho
Battleships ~ Fuso, Ise, Kongo, Nagato, Haruna, Hyuga, Kirishima, Mutsu, Yamashiro,
Heavy cruisers ~ Ashigara, Chikuma, Chokai, Furutaka, Haguro, Idzumo, Kumano, Kako, Maya, Mikuma, Mogami, Myoko, Nachi, Suzuya, and Tone
Light cruisers ~ Abukuma, Isuzu, Jintsu, Kinu, Kiso, Kitakami, Kuma, Nagara, Naka, Natori, Oi, Ping Hai (Ch), Sendai, Tama, Tatsuta, Tenryu, Yubari, and Yura
9x CVP
6x Pilots

3x TRS
1x AMPH
2x Submarines
20x CP
4x Oil

Construction pool
Aircraft Carrier ~ Shokaku
Light Aircraft Carriers ~ Chitose, Chiyoda, Ryuho, Shoho, and Zuiho

Repair pool
Battleship ~ Hiei
Heavy cruisers ~ Aoba, Asama, Atago, Kinugasa, Takao

Production circle
November/December 1939
Aircraft Carrier ~ Zuikaku [fd]
1x Submarine [fd]

January/February 1940
1x Offensive chit

March/April 1940
Light cruiser ~ Katori [fu]

May/June 1940
Light cruiser ~ Kashima [fu]

July/August 1940
Battleship ~ Yamato [fd]

9. Declaring war
9.6 Calling out the reserves
Each major power (exception: Vichy France, see 17.3 Units) has reserve units that you can call out when it goes to war with another major power.

You can always call out reserves that have ‘Res’ on the back of their counter. If a reserve unit has a particular major power named on its back, you can only call it out when you go to war with that major power.

You don’t have to call out all the eligible reserves at the first opportunity. Any you don’t call out are available while you are at war with a major power.

When you call out the reserves:
Move your eligible reserve units from the reserve pool to the map immediately in the same manner as reinforcements (see 4.2 Reinforcements) except that they are set-up face down; and
Put your eligible reserve units that have previously been removed from the game back into your force pools.

From now on, treat these reserves just like any other units.

4.2 Reinforcements
Where do reinforcements go?
MIL must be placed in the city or port named on the counter. If you lose control of the city or port, then whenever the unit is in the force pool, remove it from the game instead. If you retake the city, put the unit back in your force pool. If it could arrive but the city or port is fully stacked, put the MIL unit back onto the production circle to arrive next turn (exception: option 15 ~ Off city reinforcements, see below).

All remaining reinforcements must now go into a city you control in the unit’s home country.

A major power calls up its reserves during step 9. Declaring war.

Now lets look at the USSR vs. Japan including the USSR reserves.

Asian/Pacific
Zhukov HQ-A (8-(5)-4)
3x INF
1x CAV
1x Guns
1x CAV division

2(1) x FTR 2
1(1) x LND 3
2x Pilots

2x Submarines

Reserve vs. All
INF (1x 4-3 and 1x 7-4)
CAV (2-4)
MIL (Kuybyshev 3-2 and Vladivostok 4-3)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

To a large degree the Japanese setup depends on the Chinese setup. Japan has too few units to hold a contiguous line in China, even setting up in every other hex is barely possible. So, the question is where are the Chinese? Japan has 3 possible avenues of attack in China:
1 - from the south
2 - in the north against the Communist Chinese
3 - in the center, heading directly towards Chungking.

China needs to defend all 3 of those potential frontlines. It is even possible for China to defend just 2 of them and build up a quasi-attacking force in the third.

Japan must deal with those issues before thinking about the USSR.

Typically the first couple of Axis impulses see the Japanese bring over as many units as possible from Japan to mainland Asia. Air units fly over using rebases. HQ's can be used to reorganize transports so more units can be transferred in a single turn. Because the ports in the south are closest to the frontline, that is where the new arrivals are usually deposited. That is, Japan sets up few units in the south and then dumps all the reinforcements there so there is an adequate number for operations.

An then there is the issue of weather. In most cases only one of the weather zones in China has good attack weather. Destroying 1 or 2 Chinese per turn is really important for Japan. Otherwise the Chinese army gets larger and larger over time. If all of Japan's energy is being expended against the USSR, then controlling the Chinese becomes quite difficult.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

To a large degree the Japanese setup depends on the Chinese setup. Japan has too few units to hold a contiguous line in China, even setting up in every other hex is barely possible. So, the question is where are the Chinese? Japan has 3 possible avenues of attack in China:
1 - from the south
2 - in the north against the Communist Chinese
3 - in the center, heading directly towards Chungking.

China needs to defend all 3 of those potential frontlines. It is even possible for China to defend just 2 of them and build up a quasi-attacking force in the third.

Japan must deal with those issues before thinking about the USSR.

Typically the first couple of Axis impulses see the Japanese bring over as many units as possible from Japan to mainland Asia. Air units fly over using rebases. HQ's can be used to reorganize transports so more units can be transferred in a single turn. Because the ports in the south are closest to the frontline, that is where the new arrivals are usually deposited. That is, Japan sets up few units in the south and then dumps all the reinforcements there so there is an adequate number for operations.

An then there is the issue of weather. In most cases only one of the weather zones in China has good attack weather. Destroying 1 or 2 Chinese per turn is really important for Japan. Otherwise the Chinese army gets larger and larger over time. If all of Japan's energy is being expended against the USSR, then controlling the Chinese becomes quite difficult.

I agree. As I posted in my reasons for Japan not to DoW the USSR,

If Japan wants to take Vladivostok and I assume some USSR resources then it has to be done early in the game.

Since the Axis sets up first there is no way to judge what the situation in China will or will not be.

[Centuur]

The set up order for Global war is:

1. USA
2. USSR
3. Italy
4. China
5. CW
6. France
7. Japan
8. Germany

This means that the Japanese can react on any setup by Chinese and the USSR, because they set up last and not first...

See the scenario's booklet...

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

To a large degree the Japanese setup depends on the Chinese setup. Japan has too few units to hold a contiguous line in China, even setting up in every other hex is barely possible. So, the question is where are the Chinese? Japan has 3 possible avenues of attack in China:
1 - from the south
2 - in the north against the Communist Chinese
3 - in the center, heading directly towards Chungking.

China needs to defend all 3 of those potential frontlines. It is even possible for China to defend just 2 of them and build up a quasi-attacking force in the third.

Japan must deal with those issues before thinking about the USSR.

Typically the first couple of Axis impulses see the Japanese bring over as many units as possible from Japan to mainland Asia. Air units fly over using rebases. HQ's can be used to reorganize transports so more units can be transferred in a single turn. Because the ports in the south are closest to the frontline, that is where the new arrivals are usually deposited. That is, Japan sets up few units in the south and then dumps all the reinforcements there so there is an adequate number for operations.

An then there is the issue of weather. In most cases only one of the weather zones in China has good attack weather. Destroying 1 or 2 Chinese per turn is really important for Japan. Otherwise the Chinese army gets larger and larger over time. If all of Japan's energy is being expended against the USSR, then controlling the Chinese becomes quite difficult.

I agree. As I posted in my reasons for Japan not to DoW the USSR,

If Japan wants to take Vladivostok and I assume some USSR resources then it has to be done early in the game.

Since the Axis sets up first there is no way to judge what the situation in China will or will not be.

Actually, from the AIO perspective, plans for setting up the Japanese can be done on the basis that I outlined above. China has a lot of resources that the Japanese would love to own - there are idle factories in Japan. Besides the ones Japan possesses at the start of the war, there are several that can be grabbed in the south if China leaves them vulnerable.

Another major choice for the Japanese is whether to wipe out the Communist Chinese or not. The Communists have better units, and also fewer. If Japan can take all the Communist cities, those units have no place to return to the map. It is quite lovely (from the Axis point of view) to see Communist Chinese units sitting in the Reinforcement Pool and being pushed ever onward, to arrive "next turn".

Then there is the heartland of China. If the central valley can be penetrated, Nationalist China will collapse. Those clear hexes on the other side of the mountains are easy to attack. Of course the mountains are in the way.

---

I guess this should be in the thread for the Japanese (or Chinese) AIO.[:(]

The attached screen shot shows the additional Chinese cities and ports we added (optional rule). The ovals identify which major power holds them at the start of the war.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

The set up order for Global war is:

1. USA
2. USSR
3. Italy
4. China
5. CW
6. France
7. Japan
8. Germany

This means that the Japanese can react on any setup by Chinese and the USSR, because they set up last and not first...

See the scenario's booklet...

Thanks Centuur.


In the beginning the USSR is at its weakest and has seven (7) unused factories due to lack of resources and produces 8BP saving 1x oil a turn in 1939.

While the USSR claiming Bessarabia from Rumania gains them a resource they don't have the land units for a war with Finland to gain another.

The USSR needs take resources or receive lend lease to maximize its production as soon as possible.

In 1939 if the USSR can put four of its unused factories into production it can produce 9BP and still save 1x oil each turn. In 1940 if all seven USSR unused factories are producing this jumps up production from 11BP to 15BP and you still save 1x oil each turn. That puts the 1940 USSR production on par with the CW and USA.

That's the difference in 1940 between the USSR producing three infantry armies with 2BP left over and five infantry armies per turn.

If the USSR is at war with Japan it can give oil resources to the CW if it has any to spare.

Since there is not a way in the game to set up a non-aggression pact between Japan and the USSR there is really no reason for the USSR to declare peace. Except to have Japan pay USA entry costs to declare war again.

If the USSR wants to deter Japans ideas of expansion at the cost of the USSR then Harbin is the key to Manchuria.

An alternate USSR set up
Zhukov in Blagovyeshchensk
1x Siberian INF 5-4 on the rail line mountain hex 2 hexes northwest of Vladivostok
1x CAV on the rail and resource hex next to Hulun Lake
1x GUN in Vladivostok

[Centuur]

I don't agree with you. The USSR has every reason to keep the Japanese from invoking to many losses to his forces. Every unit lost against the Japanese is a unit less to counter Barbarossa with...

[Extraneous]

Here is the operational plan
The Kuybyshev MIL 3-2 is to far away for any significance.

Zhukov can move from Blagovyeshchensk towards Harbin, or join the CAV from Hulun Lake, or await more land units.
Having a single gun in Vladivostok allows room to place the Vladivostok MIL 4-3 (and the reserve 1x INF 4-3 or INF 7-4 if desired).
The Siberian INF 5-4 on the rail line mountain hex 2 hexes northwest of Vladivostok slows any Japanese advance toward Vladivostok.
The CAV on the rail and resource hex next to Hulun Lake can move down the rail line to Harbin securing a supply line.
The reserve 1x CAV 2-4 can be used to garrison one of the minor ports to be used as a submarine base.

That leaves an optional 1x reserve INF 4-3 or 1x reserve INF 7-4 to place in a Siberian city of choice.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I don't agree with you. The USSR has every reason to keep the Japanese from invoking to many losses to his forces. Every unit lost against the Japanese is a unit less to counter Barbarossa with...

Without an USSR/Japan neutrality pact Japan can start a second war with the USSR immediately after the first peace step pf the first war and not have to worry about Option 50: (USSR-Japan compulsory peace).

It makes no difference if the USSR wants peace for to any reason. The USSR is being faced with a Japanese Barbarossa unless they can take Manchuria and force a peace with Japan first. In the long run the cost to the USSR of the loss of factories and resources in Siberia far out weigh cost of losses in units.

Every factory and resource lost in Siberia weakens the USSR production and any chance of it surviving an attack by Germany.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It is Japan that must issue the DOW because if the turn ends with Russians in Tehran and Persia conquered, then the Japanese must leave because they are not at war with the conqueror - per the Conquest rules. They get to use the oil they are sitting on for one turn only.

As Japan I always keep a couple Divs and SCS in Canton/Hainan, to be ready for this specific purpose.

The most secure way to take out Persia is a Russian attack from the north with the CW landing on the coast in the south. Expensive US Entry-wise, but secure.

30. The Allies align minor (There is a 50% chance a USA entry chit will be removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
A minor that joins a side because a major power declares war on it doesn’t count.

31. The USSR declares war on:
Poland, Spain, Turkey, or any American country (2 USA entry chits and a 50% chance of another will be removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (1 USA entry chit and a 80% chance of another being removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
Other minor country or Vichy France (There is a 90% chance of a USA entry chit being removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)

Correct. And the CW would control the hexes it conquered even if the USSR conquers Persia.

Complete conquest
Each hex it controls in a territory or home country controlled by another major power or minor country reverts to the control of that other major power or minor country.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Bump.