Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

[morvael]

- join 1st and 2nd bullet of 9.1.1 into a single rule (require refit), use NM as reference level
- in the 3rd bullet of 9.1.1 increase the chance to gain up to 10% of NM from current 15% to 100%, but require being on refit and more than 20 hexes to nearest supplied enemy unit
- in the 4th bullet of 9.1.1 use NM as the reference value
- start with Soviet National Morale of 46, drop to 40 by December '41, stay at 40 througout first quarter of '42, increase to 45 in the second and third quarter, stay at 45 until the end of the year.
- bump Rumania and Italy to 40, Hungary and Slovakia to 45

[Shupov]

Thanks for the summary Carl!

Option 1 works for me, but I would also like to see NM tied to VP's in a way that penalizes running away and rewards aggressive play.

[Shupov]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: Shupov

Sapper and Bomazz did this opening Flaviusx and they both lost.

Pelton,

I'm not aware Saper lost as Axis with this opening. I know of two games, one against TDV where he won after inflicting 4.5 million Soviet losses before blizzard and my own which is still in progress.

tm.asp?m=3207771

2 times by sappers first post.

Pelton,

That is incorrect. Your link points to games started in 2012, before the new opening.

The new opening can be recognized by Germans crossing the Sluch on T1 AND most of Southern Front still frozen on the Romanian frontier. It is NOT the tired old standard Lvov shown in your link. The powerful Soviet armored divisions near Rovno are pocketed on T1 but the massive Southwest Front encirclement isn't completed until T3 near Kishinev. The picture at the end of T1 below shows I was able to break the pocket but it was reformed and all units were lost.

Note Saper's opening does not include Michael T's variant of railing German panzers through Romania.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Blubel
I would be for the second option provided by carlkay and raising the hex minimum to at least 20. Otherwise it is not your strategic reserve but your third line of defence.
Or delete the rule altogether. I was never quite sure what it was supposed to represent in real life. After all, you would think that the NM was what the nation was able to achieve with training. If you want more, you would have to get combat experience.

+1

I am fully with this one. If any changes are to be made, increase the distance for the "rear area" to something like 20, and tie it to (NM min 50). Or tie it to (NM min 45) for Reds and (NM min 50) for the rest. I think allowing it to recover purely to NM would make no sense at all since National Moral represents something more like "proficiency" as Joel said earlier. And any proficiency higher than 50 I read as trained and combat experienced, contrary to below 50. Allowing the rebuilt Germans to get back to NM=75 simply with training would not make sense, they also should need combat to improve past the basic training level.

I am not sure that toning the morale down per se helps the game, or is even needed since the Axis without that fix usually got well past historical averages, but apparently these 5 points difference have an enormous effect since other critical thresholds are crossed. It probably won't hurt in the sense that the 41 part gets much more incredible, so what.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: morvael
- start with Soviet National Morale of 46, drop to 40 by December '41, stay at 40 througout first quarter of '42, increase to 45 in the second and third quarter, stay at 45 until the end of the year.
- bump Rumania and Italy to 40, Hungary and Slovakia to 45

As there is a big difference between 45 and 50 there is between 45 and 40. In effect going from 50 to 40 will make a bigger difference than i think ppl think. I would prolly wana test 40 quite a bit before going there.

I know its based on the pattern of the current rules, but it would for example mean that the on map units that start on map and doesnt get to be surronded can get 45ish and can keep that less they lose battles, where as unit arriving later in nov-dec that is suppose to be the strike force for any blizzard counterattack will be limited to 40-41 moral/exp. Just note there is a hell of alot of difference between CV of a 50 moral start OOB 17k man russian div and a moral 40 september OOB 12k man russian div. 5k men in difference plus up too a 50/50 vs a 40/40 is 25% vs 16% CV modifier. Difference between going from 16% and 25% is nearly 60% difference in CV. Not to speak of the combat engine and teh lesser number of elements in a sep 41 OOB div.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Flaviusx]

Carl, you are being too constructive here.

The proper response to this nonsense is to go on strike, not to replace the new broken with the old broken. Just say no. There are so many things wrong that it's pointless to cherry pick here and look for a chimerical easy and quick fix. None exists.

Only a comprehensive do over is going to get it right now. No such thing is forthcoming until WITE2.

[Blubel]

Flavius, I think you are wrong here. While I think you are completly right that the game needs (and will hopefully get) a do over, I think that this problem will help a lot.
Basically, while wrong in many parts, I found the game enjoyable for both sides before the fix. Now it is way to easy for the Soviets and way to hard for the Axis.

[morvael]

By exporting a few variables to a text file that would allow us tweak NM levels, morale rule parameters, first winter parameters, supply penalites and FBD speed, I think 2by3 would give us enough tools to be happy and let us tinker with WitE until WitE 2.0 launch day. It's impossible to get this right and properly balanced by just one super-heated forum discussion. I believe that FBD speed should be reduced and supply penalties increased in lieu of what can't be done with the system - that is representing low capacity of captured rail network (including lack of rolling stock) to get all those supplies in place. That should be the main slowing factor of German advance in '41. Their strength (and relative strength over Soviets) should remain strong enough for a good '42 push, albeit vehicles should be lacking requiring to put half of the front to static mode to retain mobility of the other half. First Winter should be mitigated, as advancing all along the front 10-20 hexes wasn't something I enjoyed as Soviet player (in terms of plausibility). Impact of winning and losing in combat on morale should be reduced, to not allow a closed circle of winning (usually attacking) units getting stronger with every won combat and losing units getting weaker. Currently my stacks end with higher CV after combat than they began with (even with high fatigue and casualties) because of morale change impact. Combats without rout or shatter or surrender should not trigger morale changes for either side. This would at least a little help to make the Soviets fight, trading blood for time.

[Michael T]

May I remind people this thread is about Soviet morale problems in 1941. Please let the people interested in addressing that do so. If you have other issues you would like to raise please do so in another thread.

I would like to see Soviet morale in 1941 somewhere around 45. And the only way to get above it is thru winning battles. Also to get units that start at ~30-35 to 45 should take longer than 3 turns.

I am happy to let the 2by3 people figure the best approach to that aim.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Also to get units that start at ~30-35 to 45 should take longer than 3 turns.

In the case of that then u will need to roll back the moral fix in 1.07.06 or alter the fix. Even with 45 NM u can gain up too 4/5 per turn (10%, dunno if its rounded up or down) per turn. Including what it does to help axis destroyed units regain its moral up to NM. Less u make a change to the rule as intended.

Personally i dont mind some reduction in axis ops tempo to what was possible pre the bug fix and actually have to fight some times. While getting this balance is difficult especially with the different player skills that is bound to be seen. I dont mind as much the rule as intended if the NM is the limit and not 50 plus finding the "right" the NM level. I would have it go up from start or flatline in 41 rather than start high and go lower.


• Bug Fixes

1. Fixed a bug that prevented a part of rule 9.1.1 from functioning correctly. Units that were below their national morale were not getting the chance to gain morale simply due to the fact that they were below the national morale. Now they get the chance, and if they go up (they must pass various checks), they will receive an increase of die(10% of their national morale), but not to exceed the national morale.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

[carlkay58]

I went through the various versions of WitE that I have install files for. In each version I started a new game and took the following Soviet Turn 3 reinforcement units and tracked their Morale over five turns. In each case they had the same command structure and were in Refit mode.

Stavka: Shaposhnikov [5/5/5/8 3/5/1/1]
Moscow MD: Tyulenev [6/5/4/6 3/5/1/1]
30th Army: Khomenko [5/5/4/5 2/5/1/1]

1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 13th, 17th, 18th, and 21st Mos. PM Rifle Div

1941 Soviet NM = 40 until 1.05.18 when it went to 50 minus 1/month in 1941.
1.07.06 is where the bug is fixed while 1.07.08 lowered the chances that the increased morale would take effect.
Every version before 1.07.06 showed the same results with little or no variance. It is with the last two versions that things got interesting.




The latest version 1.07.08 actually has a tweak to make large morale gains LESS likely - and yet it raises faster than the previous version. The upshot of the whole thing is that Soviet reinforcements are ready to go two turns after they arrive - about the same time that their TOE hits the upper 90s. Before this they took another two turns for the morale. It is also interesting to note that every version before these still had the units hitting the 50 mark despite the earliest versions having a Soviet NM of 40. Note that the roll for morale gain is obviously conducted after the arrival of reinforcements.

[carlkay58]

Fixing the formula in either of the two ways that I had mentioned above is a major step in resolving the problem. The second necessary step is to adjust the Soviet NM. The current Soviet NM is 50 in June, 1941 and declines by one each month through Dec 41 and then is 45 for 1942. It would probably be easiest to change it to a steady 45 for the entire 1941-42 timeframe. Both things will have to be done in order to fix the problem - anything short of this will not do so.

[NavalNewZ]

.

[mmarquo]

Carlkay,

In all seriousness, what is the problem which needs to be resolved? What evidence do we have that the game, played to the bitter end, is now unbalanced? MT, who beat me soundly, has an understanding of this game superior to none other...and I shed no tear that he is now challenged to wipe STAVKA off the map in '41.

IMHO the stage is now set for a very equal match unless player skill and some luck tips the balance one way or the other.

Cheers

MArquo

[Michael T]

So this explains why we are seeing Soviets with high CV's at T3 around Smolensk in comparison to previous version.

I agree with your take. Just make Soviet national morale 45 for 1941-1942. Adjust the refit and NM recovery rules to 45 from 50. Allow morale to go a little beyond NM for winning battles (as is now I believe). AND slow the rate of increase down some. To gain 10 morale pts in 3 turns is too much, make it 5 turns.

[Michael T]

Marquo we are assuming a base case where players are evenly matched. This must be the situation we base the balance point on. Using results from one or two outlier players should not influence the problem.

In all honesty, even making the adjustments I and others are proposing the Soviet side will still have the edge, and by some margin. But at least life for German players will be tolerable with this tweak.

[Toidi]

ORIGINAL: morvael

- join 1st and 2nd bullet of 9.1.1 into a single rule (require refit), use NM as reference level
- in the 3rd bullet of 9.1.1 increase the chance to gain up to 10% of NM from current 15% to 100%, but require being on refit and more than 20 hexes to nearest supplied enemy unit
- in the 4th bullet of 9.1.1 use NM as the reference value
- start with Soviet National Morale of 46, drop to 40 by December '41, stay at 40 througout first quarter of '42, increase to 45 in the second and third quarter, stay at 45 until the end of the year.
- bump Rumania and Italy to 40, Hungary and Slovakia to 45

That would be way too harsh on the Soviets in my opinion... Changes are needed, but you cannot drop morale to 40, unless you increase Soviet manpower and arm production to levels not seen for a long long time...

I would say that keeping the NM at 46 from the beginning till the increase as scheduled now would probably be enough. Possibly an addition should be removing the rule that on-map x units have NM not lower than 50 no matter what, to remove the slight exploit of building infantry brigades as SU, quickly getting them to 50 morale and merging them into 50 morale divisions (as with divisions, they will only get to NM level )

Other simple (and probably sufficient) fix is to apply the extra rule on increase of the unit morale to NM only from say Jan '42 (for both players), or even March '42. Possibly, one can apply the national morale rule for Axis only, whereas Soviets would have to gain morale by combat and/or refit (but refit would work only until 50).

First proposal is more risky as there may be some additional balance issues (the Soviets in '41 would be likely affected - maybe the magic morale number should be 47 or even 48 - setting it at 45 would make them certainly weaker than before, when somewhat decent player is using them [so when I would be playing, the Soviets with NM of 45 would be quite a bit worse than before the NM rules change]. Scrapping the national morale = 50 rule for small units will also make '42 quite a bit harder for Soviets (as most decent players don't build divisions but just merge brigades).

Second proposal effectively rolls back the morale changes in '41, so the balance in '41 should be restored to pre-patch levels. There still may be issues at late (44?) game when Soviet NM is higher, which is why I tend to think that the NM option should apply to Axis only.

T.

[carlkay58]

Marquo - the original release of the game had Soviet NM=40 and it was raised over a year later to the 50 decreased by 1 each month. In none of the versions previous did the code work as designed. So now the code works as designed and it creates fully trained Soviet units too fast. When you couple this with the rule that Axis destroyed units return but are frozen for five turns, you get a Soviet unit in half the time whereas before this the Soviets also took five turns to be fully trained. Essentially it threw out all of the tweaks and adjustments in the game since release.

[Oberst_Klink]

A general question about how you'd customise the moral settings in the options screen. What percentage would you recommend, even for the AI? Not that I am an inexperienced wargamer, but I noticed in the latest version that the Soviet units at the Road to Series... are a tad too resilient. They barely rout and even when XXXXI. & LVI.PzK are around Leningrad at turn 3; there are already a bunch of CV-4 Soviets along the Volkhov!

Klink, Oberst
temporarily in Pskov, Luftflotte 1

[janh]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
Marquo - the original release of the game had Soviet NM=40 and it was raised over a year later to the 50 decreased by 1 each month. In none of the versions previous did the code work as designed. So now the code works as designed and it creates fully trained Soviet units too fast. When you couple this with the rule that Axis destroyed units return but are frozen for five turns, you get a Soviet unit in half the time whereas before this the Soviets also took five turns to be fully trained. Essentially it threw out all of the tweaks and adjustments in the game since release.

Might have made a lot more sense to start with 45 or 40, and have it go up 1 pts per turn starting August, peaking in January at 55-60, and then declining again to 50 in April. That way at least one part of the blizzard rules would be given a more reasonable grounding, and a real blizzard offensive could only launch if the Red Army was still in any shape for it.
The pros and cons of the moral fix are really a double-edged sword. On the one hand, I like the fact that the Russians can be more staunch now, and holding forward more seriously and counterattacking are more sensible. But then hindsight benefits the Soviets a lot more in that period than the (presumably) small mistakes the Germans made, and if mud hits or poor dice cause a delay, the "average" path for the game not to spiral to extreme situations becomes even narrower. However, in principle a deep German advance should also not be a given in every campaign I believe, and some GC should see the Germans get stuck at the Djenpr, Pskov or Smolensk. What probability for that? I don't know... small, but perhaps as large as for taking LG, Moscow and Rostov to be somewhat balanced.

The main catch I see is what others said already, that all the other rules and features were play-tested and tuned to a broken morale mechanic. With it fixed, things like for example fort-building look again too fast, or retreat and routing probabilities too low. And certainly blizzard, always being a strong artificial shift, doesn't need that much support from the largely artificial and arbitrary combat penalties anymore. However, all that isn't going to be retuned once again anymore, so perhaps a compromise to defuse the "fixed morale rule" a bit is a sound idea...