THE THREAD!!!

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I forget the name of the system that actually made the Luftwaffe's job easier, but there was one ESM system that the nightfighters could home in on...

You're probably thinking of the Monica system?

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Good morning!


Leo "Apollo11"

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

How is the visibility from the rear turret Martin?

IIRC the Lancaster rear gunners very often complained that visibility was poor (or perhaps this was due to high altitude flying and freezing of perplex)?

It's not too bad, the gunsights would be an added lump in the way of the vision I suppose. The gunners would either cut some of the perspex out or remove the whole sheet due to the thing either icing up or getting scratched. The side panels etc didn't matter too much as they would rarely keep the turret still for long. Taking out the perspex improved the view but at the cost of removing any potential of keeping warm in there. Ours has the hydraulics disabled so the only way to turn it is by rotating by hand. I'm not a big fan of only being held in by a pair of sliding doors though!


As sat in the turret with it locked facing rearwards your eyeline is 'above' most of the metal work in the turret as viewed directly rearwards. The view from 9 to 11 o'clock, and 1 to 3, is partly obscured by framework and gun mountings. There's a clear view directly out at 9 and 3 o'clock past the rudders.

There was an improved turret made by Rose Brothers which came along late in the war, it was much bigger and had better visibility as well as twin .50 cals instead of the Browning .303 guns of the Fraser Nash turrets. The gunner could also wear his parachute whilst sat in the turret instead of having to stow it outside so bailing out was a matter of just tumbling over the guns and into space.

RGR!

BTW, how high does your Lanc fly these days? Always low?


Leo "Apollo11"

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I forget the name of the system that actually made the Luftwaffe's job easier, but there was one ESM system that the nightfighters could home in on...

You're probably thinking of the Monica system?

That's the one.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I forget the name of the system that actually made the Luftwaffe's job easier, but there was one ESM system that the nightfighters could home in on...

You're probably thinking of the Monica system?

That's the one.

The "Monica" was almost totally unusable because it gave enormous number of "false alarms" due to proximity of other friendly bombers in the bomber stream... most Lancaster crews simply turned it OFF... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
Germans also developed very successful passive radar receiver that homed on "Monica" signals - it was not good thing for the RAF...

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Dixie



You're probably thinking of the Monica system?

That's the one.

The "Monica" was almost totally unusable because it gave enormous number of "false alarms" due to proximity of other friendly bombers in the bomber stream... most Lancaster crews simply turned it OFF... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
Germans also developed very successful passive radar receiver that homed on "Monica" signals - it was not good thing for the RAF...

Yeesh! So Monica really sucked, eh? Someone shoulda told Bill some 50 years later. Fnar fnar...

[fodder]

Good Morning! [:)]

[USSAmerica]

Good morning - Tithe. [&o][&o][&o]

[Schanilec]

Good mornig all. Finally a little rain. Really need an inch or so.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

How is the visibility from the rear turret Martin?

IIRC the Lancaster rear gunners very often complained that visibility was poor (or perhaps this was due to high altitude flying and freezing of perplex)?

It's not too bad, the gunsights would be an added lump in the way of the vision I suppose. The gunners would either cut some of the perspex out or remove the whole sheet due to the thing either icing up or getting scratched. The side panels etc didn't matter too much as they would rarely keep the turret still for long. Taking out the perspex improved the view but at the cost of removing any potential of keeping warm in there. Ours has the hydraulics disabled so the only way to turn it is by rotating by hand. I'm not a big fan of only being held in by a pair of sliding doors though!


As sat in the turret with it locked facing rearwards your eyeline is 'above' most of the metal work in the turret as viewed directly rearwards. The view from 9 to 11 o'clock, and 1 to 3, is partly obscured by framework and gun mountings. There's a clear view directly out at 9 and 3 o'clock past the rudders.

There was an improved turret made by Rose Brothers which came along late in the war, it was much bigger and had better visibility as well as twin .50 cals instead of the Browning .303 guns of the Fraser Nash turrets. The gunner could also wear his parachute whilst sat in the turret instead of having to stow it outside so bailing out was a matter of just tumbling over the guns and into space.

RGR!

BTW, how high does your Lanc fly these days? Always low?


Leo "Apollo11"

Well we've certainly got no need for oxygen any more [:D] Honestly, I'm not entirely sure but we display at about 250'. I think the usual transit altitude is between 500 to 1000' under VFR, usually towards the bottom end of that scale. We have to watch out for various masts and hills on the routes.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Dixie



You're probably thinking of the Monica system?

That's the one.

The "Monica" was almost totally unusable because it gave enormous number of "false alarms" due to proximity of other friendly bombers in the bomber stream... most Lancaster crews simply turned it OFF... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
Germans also developed very successful passive radar receiver that homed on "Monica" signals - it was not good thing for the RAF...

I guess it's payback for how the Brit's exploited the Metox system that German U-boats used. Same deal , a ESM system that emitted a frequency that the coastal command RAF bombers could home in on.

[Kwik E Mart]

...back in civilization tithe...although defininiton of "civilization" is relative...[&o]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Terminus



That's the one.

The "Monica" was almost totally unusable because it gave enormous number of "false alarms" due to proximity of other friendly bombers in the bomber stream... most Lancaster crews simply turned it OFF... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
Germans also developed very successful passive radar receiver that homed on "Monica" signals - it was not good thing for the RAF...

I guess it's payback for how the Brit's exploited the Metox system that German U-boats used. Same deal , a ESM system that emitted a frequency that the coastal command RAF bombers could home in on.

Hi Steve,

I don't think that the Brits had any sort of passive homing apparatus to guide to Metox emissions. Certainly they perfected Huff-Duff and used that to bang-up (rimshot) effect, but Metox? I'm not so sure. Metox was marginally useful for the Germans, but they still had trouble until the end in identifying airborne ASW centimetric radar emissions. That was their greatest weakness. Not that Metox betrayed them, but just wasn't up to the task.

Well, that combined with suicidal "surface and engage" orders for dealing with airborne threats, nonsensical daily radio positional call ins that could be fixed and located, faulty torpedoes, poor range in their VIIc, 'war against the type XIV tankers', etc. etc.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,



The "Monica" was almost totally unusable because it gave enormous number of "false alarms" due to proximity of other friendly bombers in the bomber stream... most Lancaster crews simply turned it OFF... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
Germans also developed very successful passive radar receiver that homed on "Monica" signals - it was not good thing for the RAF...

I guess it's payback for how the Brit's exploited the Metox system that German U-boats used. Same deal , a ESM system that emitted a frequency that the coastal command RAF bombers could home in on.

Hi Steve,

I don't think that the Brits had any sort of passive homing apparatus to guide to Metox emissions. Certainly they perfected Huff-Duff and used that to bang-up (rimshot) effect, but Metox? I'm not so sure. Metox was marginally useful for the Germans, but they still had trouble until the end in identifying airborne ASW centimetric radar emissions. That was their greatest weakness. Not that Metox betrayed them, but just wasn't up to the task.

Well, that combined with suicidal "surface and engage" orders for dealing with airborne threats, nonsensical daily radio positional call ins that could be fixed and located, faulty torpedoes, poor range in their VIIc, 'war against the type XIV tankers', etc. etc.

I may be mistaken, but iirc the Brits couldn't actually detect Metox it was a ruse to disguise the efficiency of the latest radar. It was a fabricated story that was passed on to the Germans by a downed Coastal Command airman. The Germans were already suspicious that something was leading the aeroplanes to them in the darkness or bad weather and the lie about Metox convinced them to stop using it, thus giving them even less notice of an incoming attack. Any boat that didn't make it back wouldn't have been able to report they weren't using their Metox.

[Dixie]

http://youtu.be/hnTenYt-PMw

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve




I guess it's payback for how the Brit's exploited the Metox system that German U-boats used. Same deal , a ESM system that emitted a frequency that the coastal command RAF bombers could home in on.

Hi Steve,

I don't think that the Brits had any sort of passive homing apparatus to guide to Metox emissions. Certainly they perfected Huff-Duff and used that to bang-up (rimshot) effect, but Metox? I'm not so sure. Metox was marginally useful for the Germans, but they still had trouble until the end in identifying airborne ASW centimetric radar emissions. That was their greatest weakness. Not that Metox betrayed them, but just wasn't up to the task.

Well, that combined with suicidal "surface and engage" orders for dealing with airborne threats, nonsensical daily radio positional call ins that could be fixed and located, faulty torpedoes, poor range in their VIIc, 'war against the type XIV tankers', etc. etc.

I may be mistaken, but iirc the Brits couldn't actually detect Metox it was a ruse to disguise the efficiency of the latest radar. It was a fabricated story that was passed on to the Germans by a downed Coastal Command airman. The Germans were already suspicious that something was leading the aeroplanes to them in the darkness or bad weather and the lie about Metox convinced them to stop using it, thus giving them even less notice of an incoming attack. Any boat that didn't make it back wouldn't have been able to report they weren't using their Metox.

I've heard this story , and it's opposing view. But I don't think I've heard any official comment , or any well known historian comment on it. I'd really like to hear something definitive on the subject.

Most people don't realize that most RADAR detectors , such as the well know "fuzzbusters" give off a signal. The police of Virginia and the District of Columbia use that flaw everyday. Both those governments ban RADAR detectors with a very heavy (read "lucrative") fine. Governments and militaries take great pains to make sure their ESM systems don't give off such a signal (or for that matter other electronics). Crews instituting "EMCOM" procedures (emissions controls) generally have check lists as to what gear gives off what kind of emissions.

What I'm saying is that I don't know what the truth is about METOX. But It sounds plausible , the Germans certainly believed it. And with the tremendous skill that the wartime British government had with disinformation , I'd not be surprised that the claim was that. Does anyone REALLY know the truth about "The Coventry story/myth"? I simply use that as an example . As Churchill was said to have said "In wartime truth is so precious that she must be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies". So who knows? And does it really matter? The Germans ditched Metox as soon as they could.

[Chickenboy]

Hi Steve,

I'm finishing up the second volume of Clair's "Hitler's U-boat War". It's an 800 page slog, but interesting. He reviews the Metox usage and German's beliefs that they were being detected, whereas in reality, they were not. The second volume was written in this decade, IIRC.

I'm comfortable with his research on the matter and the conclusions that he draws from that, but I'm open to an even better countervailing opinion, if one exists.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Good morning!


Leo "Apollo11"

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Hi Steve,

I'm finishing up the second volume of Clair's "Hitler's U-boat War". It's an 800 page slog, but interesting. He reviews the Metox usage and German's beliefs that they were being detected, whereas in reality, they were not. The second volume was written in this decade, IIRC.

I'm comfortable with his research on the matter and the conclusions that he draws from that, but I'm open to an even better countervailing opinion, if one exists.

The Blair books came out in 1996 and 1998, respectively. Blair died in 98.

[fodder]

Good Morning! [:)]