Historical unit set?
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Historical unit set?
I wanted to try out a German/USSR meeting engagement battle using something of historical variety. Any suggestions, especially for Russians?
Now this is tricky question 
I am reading one book of battles in the east written by one Finn. There is episode where he describes that sovjets attacked with 1000 men and 90 tanks against normal newbie infantry company which had six 81mm mortars, two 75mm inf-gun, platoon of 34Mg:s and lots of satchel charges. After six hours fight russians retreated after loosing 80% of tanks and 70% of its mens. Tanks were propably T-26:s and T-28:s, year was 42. Guys who fought so well at their first fight were from Estonia and served in German SS. Estonians suffered losses, but not enough to get forgotten. They fought again next day without reinforcements, and survived.
mosh
I am reading one book of battles in the east written by one Finn. There is episode where he describes that sovjets attacked with 1000 men and 90 tanks against normal newbie infantry company which had six 81mm mortars, two 75mm inf-gun, platoon of 34Mg:s and lots of satchel charges. After six hours fight russians retreated after loosing 80% of tanks and 70% of its mens. Tanks were propably T-26:s and T-28:s, year was 42. Guys who fought so well at their first fight were from Estonia and served in German SS. Estonians suffered losses, but not enough to get forgotten. They fought again next day without reinforcements, and survived.
mosh
salute
mosh
If its not rotten, shoot again
mosh
If its not rotten, shoot again
Hello, I'm at work at present, and i have 3 excellend documents on my work maching detailling American, Russian, and German TO&E's for WWII. At what time where you planning on setting this engagement?, and what force size/type did you desire?
Soviet have a choice Cavalry, Infantry, Mech., Armour, Airborn, Mech. + Cavlary, or Mech. + Armour. For a meeting engagement I would recomend any, excluding Infantry.
Germans have a choice of just about anything.
Soviet have a choice Cavalry, Infantry, Mech., Armour, Airborn, Mech. + Cavlary, or Mech. + Armour. For a meeting engagement I would recomend any, excluding Infantry.
Germans have a choice of just about anything.
"We're having a war, and we want you to come!"
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
Have you checked out Scott Grasse's program for setting up scenarios? It's called SP Scenarios and Battle Setup Guidelines. You punch in what you want (Countries,year, situation) at it generates how you need to set up the battle.
Probley worth a look.
It's at http://slightning.thegamers.net/whatsnew.html
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Probley worth a look.
It's at http://slightning.thegamers.net/whatsnew.html
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Phil
Sorry for the delay, was out for lunch, and then just spent a while makeing notes.
OK 1st the soviets...
Reccoment a soviet Tank Brigade
A soviet tank brigade in '43 has the following assets
Brigade HQ = HQ squad + Truck
2 Tank Bn
1 Motorized Rifle Bn
1 Recon company
A Tank Bn will have
HQ = HQ squad + Truck
1st Hvy. = 1 x KV, 2 x KV, 2 x KV
2nd Med. = 1 x T34, 3 x T34, 3 x T34, 3 x T34
3rd Med. = 1 x T34, 3 x T34, 3 x T34, 3 x T34
4th Lt. = 2 x T70, 2 x T70, 2 x T70
A Motorized Rifle Bn will have
HQ = HQ squad + Truck, 2 x Ammo carrier
1st Rifle = 5 x Inf. Squad, 5 x Inf.Squad, 5 x Inf. Squad, 2 x 82mm Mortar
2nd Rifle, 3rd Rifle, 4th Rifle, same as 1st Rifle
5th Mortar = (3 x 82 mm Mortar), x 4
A Recon Company will have the same organization as in SPW@W
Corps assets that could be attached include
A battery of AA ( 6 guns in 3 sections)
A Bn of Heavy Mortars ( 3 x 4 tubes)
A battery of Lt SPG's (7 Su-76's)
A battery of Medium SPG's (4 Su-122's)
A Company of Motorcycle Troops
A Company of Sappers
Note that the Mortars and SPG's could be taken as off board artillery
Now the Germans... As the germans can have just about any organization or equipment. I will outline some regiments that you could chop and change from. These regiments are all from a Pz Div '43
Panzer Regiment is made up of 2 panzer Bn
A Panzer Bn has
HQ = 2 x utility, 4 x Engineer squad, 3 x Sdfz10/4, 3 x Sdfz10/4
1st = 2 x Pz-III, 5 x Pz-III, 5 x Pz-III, 5 x Pz-III
2nd = 2 x Pz-IV, 5 x Pz-IV, 5 x Pz-IV, 5 x Pz-IV
3rd = same as 2nd
4th = 2 x Pz-VI, 4 x Pz-VI, 4 x Pz-VI, 4 x Pz-VI
Panzergrenadier Rgt has
1 Armoured Infantry Bn
1 Motorized Infantry Bn
1 SP Artillery Company
1 Panzer FLAK Company
1 Amoured HQ company
An Armoured Infantry Bn has
HQ = 1 HQ squad + 1 Halftrack
1st = 3 x ( 4 x Infantry squads + 4 halftracks), (2 x HMG + 2 x 81mm Mtr + 2 x Halftrack)
2nd & 3rd as for 1st
4th = 2 x utility, (2 x 120 mm mtr + 2 x Halftrack), (3 x 75mm ATG + 3 x Halftrack), (2 x Maultier)
A Motorized Infantry Bn is identcal to the armourd infantry except that all the halftracks are replaced by trucks
A Panzer FLAK co has 2 x utility, 3 x (4 x 20 mm AAG + 4 x Truck)
A SP Artillery Co has 2 x utility, 3 x (2 x 150 mm SPG), (3 x Maultier)
An Armourd HQ company has (2 x utility + 2 x maultier), (2 x 150mm Mtr + 2 x truck), (3 x 75mm AT + 3 x truck), ( 2 x Maultier)
Divisional assets could include
A company of Panzer Pioneers
A Heavy FlaK battery ( 6 x 88mm in 3 sections)
A company of Jagdpanzer ( 2,4,4,4 x Marder II)
A Bn of towed 105mm Guns offmap
A Recon company of scouts in halftracks
An Armourd Car Company (2,4,4,4 x Sdkfz-222)
if these force levels are to high, cut the soviet deployment down to a Batallion level, but remember that the soviets like to do thei organization in threes, so a Bn level task force for soviets would most likely be 2 Tank companies, 1 Infantry company, 1 recon platoon or Armoured car platoon, + some attached platoons/batteries from the corps assets.
Hope this helps with the planning
OK 1st the soviets...
Reccoment a soviet Tank Brigade
A soviet tank brigade in '43 has the following assets
Brigade HQ = HQ squad + Truck
2 Tank Bn
1 Motorized Rifle Bn
1 Recon company
A Tank Bn will have
HQ = HQ squad + Truck
1st Hvy. = 1 x KV, 2 x KV, 2 x KV
2nd Med. = 1 x T34, 3 x T34, 3 x T34, 3 x T34
3rd Med. = 1 x T34, 3 x T34, 3 x T34, 3 x T34
4th Lt. = 2 x T70, 2 x T70, 2 x T70
A Motorized Rifle Bn will have
HQ = HQ squad + Truck, 2 x Ammo carrier
1st Rifle = 5 x Inf. Squad, 5 x Inf.Squad, 5 x Inf. Squad, 2 x 82mm Mortar
2nd Rifle, 3rd Rifle, 4th Rifle, same as 1st Rifle
5th Mortar = (3 x 82 mm Mortar), x 4
A Recon Company will have the same organization as in SPW@W
Corps assets that could be attached include
A battery of AA ( 6 guns in 3 sections)
A Bn of Heavy Mortars ( 3 x 4 tubes)
A battery of Lt SPG's (7 Su-76's)
A battery of Medium SPG's (4 Su-122's)
A Company of Motorcycle Troops
A Company of Sappers
Note that the Mortars and SPG's could be taken as off board artillery
Now the Germans... As the germans can have just about any organization or equipment. I will outline some regiments that you could chop and change from. These regiments are all from a Pz Div '43
Panzer Regiment is made up of 2 panzer Bn
A Panzer Bn has
HQ = 2 x utility, 4 x Engineer squad, 3 x Sdfz10/4, 3 x Sdfz10/4
1st = 2 x Pz-III, 5 x Pz-III, 5 x Pz-III, 5 x Pz-III
2nd = 2 x Pz-IV, 5 x Pz-IV, 5 x Pz-IV, 5 x Pz-IV
3rd = same as 2nd
4th = 2 x Pz-VI, 4 x Pz-VI, 4 x Pz-VI, 4 x Pz-VI
Panzergrenadier Rgt has
1 Armoured Infantry Bn
1 Motorized Infantry Bn
1 SP Artillery Company
1 Panzer FLAK Company
1 Amoured HQ company
An Armoured Infantry Bn has
HQ = 1 HQ squad + 1 Halftrack
1st = 3 x ( 4 x Infantry squads + 4 halftracks), (2 x HMG + 2 x 81mm Mtr + 2 x Halftrack)
2nd & 3rd as for 1st
4th = 2 x utility, (2 x 120 mm mtr + 2 x Halftrack), (3 x 75mm ATG + 3 x Halftrack), (2 x Maultier)
A Motorized Infantry Bn is identcal to the armourd infantry except that all the halftracks are replaced by trucks
A Panzer FLAK co has 2 x utility, 3 x (4 x 20 mm AAG + 4 x Truck)
A SP Artillery Co has 2 x utility, 3 x (2 x 150 mm SPG), (3 x Maultier)
An Armourd HQ company has (2 x utility + 2 x maultier), (2 x 150mm Mtr + 2 x truck), (3 x 75mm AT + 3 x truck), ( 2 x Maultier)
Divisional assets could include
A company of Panzer Pioneers
A Heavy FlaK battery ( 6 x 88mm in 3 sections)
A company of Jagdpanzer ( 2,4,4,4 x Marder II)
A Bn of towed 105mm Guns offmap
A Recon company of scouts in halftracks
An Armourd Car Company (2,4,4,4 x Sdkfz-222)
if these force levels are to high, cut the soviet deployment down to a Batallion level, but remember that the soviets like to do thei organization in threes, so a Bn level task force for soviets would most likely be 2 Tank companies, 1 Infantry company, 1 recon platoon or Armoured car platoon, + some attached platoons/batteries from the corps assets.
Hope this helps with the planning
"We're having a war, and we want you to come!"
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
Historical ?? I always wonder what is meant when folks use the word Historical ..
I have posted this question before on other forums
TO&E's can't be used because historically nobody ever showed up to a battle at exactly full strength ...
Can equal points be used ?? no battle was ever fought with exactly matching strengthes
Can a represenitive shrinking of a Division proportionally be used Batallions were broken up historically but did Solomon ever divide the baby exactly in 3 ??
What is the TO&E for a german kamphgruppe ?? whatever is handy ...
Most the time we can't even be sure Historically exactly who all was at a specific battle without running into more conflict the more refferences we draw upon ..
Given the perponderance of good old foot infantry is it Historical to have tanks in every battle ?? is it historical to always have tanks on both sides???
Was it common for actual battles to take place based upon the concept of a meeting engagement as we find in SPWAW .. were defenders always dug in ??
I mean how often did armor columns actually stumble across one another just driving around ?? Is it Historical to never have a rear guard ?
Can you have leg infantry Historically actually keeping up with Armor and it just so happens that both sides happen to meet just when balanced forces or some idea of balanced of exactly the same size just happen to bump into each other ???
I don't want to start a big flame war or have folks think i have an answer ..I am just curious what folks mean by historical ..and any provocative sounding smart aleck sounding comments above were just to knock loose some assumptions so folks will have to think about it before they answer ..
So ..exactly what do you mean by Historical Forces ??
I have posted this question before on other forums
TO&E's can't be used because historically nobody ever showed up to a battle at exactly full strength ...
Can equal points be used ?? no battle was ever fought with exactly matching strengthes
Can a represenitive shrinking of a Division proportionally be used Batallions were broken up historically but did Solomon ever divide the baby exactly in 3 ??
What is the TO&E for a german kamphgruppe ?? whatever is handy ...
Most the time we can't even be sure Historically exactly who all was at a specific battle without running into more conflict the more refferences we draw upon ..
Given the perponderance of good old foot infantry is it Historical to have tanks in every battle ?? is it historical to always have tanks on both sides???
Was it common for actual battles to take place based upon the concept of a meeting engagement as we find in SPWAW .. were defenders always dug in ??
I mean how often did armor columns actually stumble across one another just driving around ?? Is it Historical to never have a rear guard ?
Can you have leg infantry Historically actually keeping up with Armor and it just so happens that both sides happen to meet just when balanced forces or some idea of balanced of exactly the same size just happen to bump into each other ???
I don't want to start a big flame war or have folks think i have an answer ..I am just curious what folks mean by historical ..and any provocative sounding smart aleck sounding comments above were just to knock loose some assumptions so folks will have to think about it before they answer ..
So ..exactly what do you mean by Historical Forces ??
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Hi AmmoSgt,
Yes, we've talked about this before. Historical means close. We can't ever make a map that duplicates the terrain exactly, and although some guys come pretty close we probably can't ever match the exact personnel involved in a battle.
Another reason a scenario cannot be strictly historical is that the designer can set it up as closely as possible to the facts, but the player can do anything he wants. He does not have to do what what was done historically.
All you can do is research everything, and set it up as close as you can to the original battle.
BTW, my scenarios are never historical, just hysterical.
Don
[This message has been edited by Don (edited February 02, 2001).]
Yes, we've talked about this before. Historical means close. We can't ever make a map that duplicates the terrain exactly, and although some guys come pretty close we probably can't ever match the exact personnel involved in a battle.
Another reason a scenario cannot be strictly historical is that the designer can set it up as closely as possible to the facts, but the player can do anything he wants. He does not have to do what what was done historically.
All you can do is research everything, and set it up as close as you can to the original battle.
BTW, my scenarios are never historical, just hysterical.
Don
[This message has been edited by Don (edited February 02, 2001).]
Don "Sapper" Llewellyn
Hehe... I understand what you mean, ma'am. Me and Krull just wanted to have a some fun, and we figured a platoon of Tigers and a section of Ferdinands kinda took some fun factor out of it. So we just wanted to play with more probable units and dispositions.Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
So ..exactly what do you mean by Historical Forces ??
Here's some rules that we've been thinking of:
Historical units, so let try to buy the largest sized unit applicable. Like you have to buy one tank company, if you're gonna buy three tank platoons. Also if you want two tank platoons, you have to buy a company, and then delete a platoon. No company's gonna detach two out of three organic platoons, right? So I guess no multiple units of same size, unless there's a command unit included. ( only for units of platoon and smaller) So no 8 tank platoons, but two companies with one of them at understrength.
If unit comes pre-mixed, let try to keep them that way if reasonable. But I don't think a mixed unit of Pz-IIIj and Pz-IIIj(s) isn't right for 1944. But a mix of Jpz-IV and Marders make sense for a TD unit in 1944.
There can't be more tanks than infantry units. Let's keep the ratio 1:1 max.
Support type of units have to be one level smaller than the average line units. If your tank or infantry units are in company size, your can have only one flak platoon or less. Same for AT, engineers, on-board artillery, TD.
If you want to get assault gun units, they replace the tanks as main units, or follow above rule as support units.
No heavy tank sections, as I think they were grouped in special units. But if that's the type of unit you want to try, then you should buy the largest unit there is. Any additional medium and light tanks should follow the support unit rule.
If it is going to be meeting, advance, or delay type of battle, no off-board artillery. Only organic or attached on-board fire support. Air strike allowed, if available, but no medium or heavy bombers. Only fighter-bombers, dive-bombers, fighers, dedicated AT aircraft.
No partisans, Special Ops, or commando infiltration for meeting/adv/delay engagements. Most of these type of battles where units running into each other by accident. We can talk about this.
In above type of engaments, units have to be deployed near the edge of the maps, no further than 1 hex off the roads. Recon units excepted.
No mix of SS/Guard/engineers/paratroopers with regular troops, unless one of them's support units. I guess just no equal mix. Either Rugulars supported by the elites, or elites supported by regular units.
So how's this sound?
A lot of it is somewhat arbitrary, but I was just looking for something other than 20 Tigers vs. 20 JS-2
You See a little clarity just a little clarity thats all i wanted ....
But i really think more folks need to tell what their Idea of Historical is ..I think it would help everybody better understand what is expected in a human on human game ...the more we talk about this before we play the less whining and hurt feelings after the game ...
Not everybody comes to the game a grognard ... i bet this thread could really shine the light on some dark spaces for some folks
But i really think more folks need to tell what their Idea of Historical is ..I think it would help everybody better understand what is expected in a human on human game ...the more we talk about this before we play the less whining and hurt feelings after the game ...
Not everybody comes to the game a grognard ... i bet this thread could really shine the light on some dark spaces for some folks
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
"Can you have leg infantry Historically actually keeping up with Armor and it just so happens that both sides happen to meet just when balanced forces or some idea of balanced of exactly the same size just happen to bump into each other ???"
This is why many battles cannot be done, or cannot be done historically - balance. Many, many battles were complete mismatches, and that does not make for a good scenario or H to H fight.
Seems that infantry had to be motorized to keep up with armor - I keep reading of foot infantry being left far behind by German armor. Either that or the armor had to travel at the same pace as the infantry. It really depends on what nationality and what area they were in.
Don
This is why many battles cannot be done, or cannot be done historically - balance. Many, many battles were complete mismatches, and that does not make for a good scenario or H to H fight.
Seems that infantry had to be motorized to keep up with armor - I keep reading of foot infantry being left far behind by German armor. Either that or the armor had to travel at the same pace as the infantry. It really depends on what nationality and what area they were in.
Don
Don "Sapper" Llewellyn