The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

[Canoerebel]

Andre, I agree about the overloaded field.
 
That reminds me.  I was chided yesterday for having "10,000 aircraft" at Sabang.  It seemed that the writer was offended at what I have done at Sabang, thus concluding that extreme measures by John are warranted to overcome Sabang's defenses.  He'd send a nuclear night attack, he said, "because that's exactly what I would do if I wanted to shut down a base that's got 10000 fighters flying CAP and all the other goodies."
 
Does what I have at Sabang really offend readers of John's AAR? 
 
Sabang is currently a level 6.29 airfield with 434 air support (plus 24 for an AV), 139 engineering squads, and 28 vehicles.  The staff includes Seventh Air HQ and VII Bomber HQ (plus SWPac, which doesn't offer air support, but does show the level of importance the Allies attach to the base).  There are 405 fighters here plus 5 reconnaissance.  That's the most aircraft that have been stationed at Sabang.  Due to the Air HQ, the field is not overstacked.  The only other unsual defensive measure at Sabang is mines, with 500+ tended by two ACM.
 
Do Japanese fans think the Allies have crossed some line by pursuing a Fortress Sabang?  Come on.
 
 
 
 

[BBfanboy]

Can you not swap out the P-38s in restricted sqns for lesser stuff and send the former aircraft to the pools for reinforcing the front line? It may cost some PP but it may save the campaign too.

[Canoerebel]

That's a handy idea!  So I tried to swap the West Coast fighter squadrons from P-38E to various other models, but none showed "upgrade now" capacity.  Perhaps it will take a few days until the computer "authorizes" the swap.
 
But I had seven P-38E in the pool, so I retrograded the P-38F (no planes) squadron at Chittagong to the E model and now at least I have those seven fighters on the map.

[Canoerebel]

[oops, duplicate post*]

*This was not an effort to unfairly boost my post count to further may hard-charging campaign to catch, pass and obliterate GreyJoy.

[witpqs]

Dan, not a fan of either Allies or Japanese, but I'll offer my opinion.

The airfield is overloaded. If it is hit, you will suffer the consequences. That's built in to the programming. Period.

A looong time ago I was part of a larger discussion with TheElf about number of squadrons and planes at airfields versus the number 'supported'. Basically, the consequences of going beyond the numbers that are shown as supported are built in to the game as a way of inflicting on the player more of the problems encountered during the war IRL. many posters expressed angst over the battle to keep airfields from being over loaded in one way or another (aviation support, number of squadrons, number of planes, et al). Elf made it clear that they want you to be stuck with the consequences of over loading as part of a damper on the pace of operations.

In this case, with many planes, if the base gets hit you will suffer the consequences. But you knew that when you bought your ticket, right?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

[oops, duplicate post*]

*This was not an effort to unfairly boost my post count to further may hard-charging campaign to catch, pass and obliterate GreyJoy.

In that case I won't make the mistake of replying to it. Poof!

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
In this case, with many planes, if the base gets hit you will suffer the consequences. But you knew that when you bought your ticket, right?

Basically, yes. I know a size six field can accomodate 300 engines. I know the base force personnel are sufficient to handle the overflow at present. What I don't know is how big a deal it is to have 110 extra aircraft at the field. It's going to be very hard for John to get a bombardment TF in (he might not even try anytime soon, given the Allied navy and mines). But if he whittles down my CAP and manages to get a big daylight air strike in, I am willing to suffer the consequences.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Andre, I agree about the overloaded field.

That reminds me.  I was chided yesterday for having "10,000 aircraft" at Sabang.  It seemed that the writer was offended at what I have done at Sabang, thus concluding that extreme measures by John are warranted to overcome Sabang's defenses.  He'd send a nuclear night attack, he said, "because that's exactly what I would do if I wanted to shut down a base that's got 10000 fighters flying CAP and all the other goodies."

Does what I have at Sabang really offend readers of John's AAR? 

Sabang is currently a level 6.29 airfield with 434 air support (plus 24 for an AV), 139 engineering squads, and 28 vehicles.  The staff includes Seventh Air HQ and VII Bomber HQ (plus SWPac, which doesn't offer air support, but does show the level of importance the Allies attach to the base).  There are 405 fighters here plus 5 reconnaissance.  That's the most aircraft that have been stationed at Sabang.  Due to the Air HQ, the field is not overstacked.  The only other unsual defensive measure at Sabang is mines, with 500+ tended by two ACM.

Do Japanese fans think the Allies have crossed some line by pursuing a Fortress Sabang?  Come on.

All very normal when you only have a foothold. I'm sure the Allies would have done the same if they needed to do so.

As above the consequences must be 'taken' by the opponent, so you're inviting a bombardment of some kind, or massed sweeps for days followed by bombing to hit all of the damaged planes left on the ground. If you're over-stacking, he has to prove it.

Since none of that has happened you'e really exposing John's lack of preparation in this most crucial area of the board. Anyone playing the Japanese side should be most upset by how little he has done here so far to challenge you, and thus give you the opportunity to create a fortress there. Most Japanese players would have had 2-3 air HQ hubs in the area and a plethora of supporting bases ready and waiting for your invasion as early as day 1.

Well played so far.

[Paladin1dcs]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

ORIGINAL: Paladin1dcs
...In my eyes, without knowing anything else about the situation, I'd say you just wasted a perfectly good CA. The situation may have dictated another course of action, but from where I'm sitting, this doesn't look like a good trade on it's face, especially since the damage that will more than likely result in forces being withdrawn came from a minefield and not surface ships....

[X(]

I cannot fathom this interpretation. The minefield is part and parcel of the overall action. I'm willing to commit CA TFs against much bigger enemy TFs give those mines, the quality of the commanders, the attrition already suffered by the Japanese fleet, and the possibility that damaged Japanese ships may be picked off by subs or strike aircraft. Both sides are in a high-attrition environment, and every which way I look at this it is a pretty important Allied victory.

My view was based upon the fact that, in all likelihood, the SCTF did less damage than the minefield did. I don't have a problem sending SCTFs out against a stronger enemy, usually, but I do have an issue with sending them against a force which they don't really have a reliable way of damaging.

I mean, let's face it. The TT strike was a lucky break and was probably the only real damage that was done by that SCTF. The 8" shells are going to be hard pressed to penetrate the armor of the two Yamatos and the 6" shells of the CLs are going to bounce right off most of the ships in that TF. Sure, those 8" shells are dangerous to CAs and below on a fairly regular basis, but because of the targeting algorithms involved, most of the fire probably went towards the two IJN BBs.

Given that, I don't see that having a CA-led TF face down that particular IJN SCTF was necessary. Granted, I understand that you're in a war of attrition now, but even attrition wars need to be based on acceptable losses of material which are outweighed by the gains. In this case, I feel that the minefield was a solid idea, but the loss of the Devonshire seems to be outweighed by the damage that was inflicted on those IJN Capital Ships by your units.

Again, just my .02 worth. I may feel differently if I was in the Japanese seat, but I'm not and I have to weigh my expectations against that lack of knowledge about the IJN and it's supply of men and materiel.

[Canoerebel]

Yeah, when you compare what's happened here to GreyJoy's preparations in the DEI...well, there's no comparison.  Beyond not having patrols or Air HQ present, John didn't even build up the airfields.  It's still going to be a long, tough battle, but I can't imagine what things would've been like had John even had minimal safeguards up.

[Canoerebel]

Paladin, I didn't know that the Yamato/Musashi group was coming back to Medan for a third consecutive night.  the RN TF was part of a rotation to protect the troops at Medan.  (A few days back, CA Quincy led some destroyers against four of the best Japanese CAs, and came out on top.)  I did know that if Yamato and friends returned for a third consectuve night, the BBs would likely be low on ammo.  Damage and slow them down and they face an ambush by SBDs and Avengers based at Langsa.  I've already seen what RN and RAN cruisers can do to Japanese battleships.  A month back, John lost two, with a third badly damaged, up at Akyab under similar circumstances - and Avengers there applied the coup-de-grace.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

ORIGINAL: witpqs
In this case, with many planes, if the base gets hit you will suffer the consequences. But you knew that when you bought your ticket, right?

Basically, yes. I know a size six field can accomodate 300 engines. I know the base force personnel are sufficient to handle the overflow at present. What I don't know is how big a deal it is to have 110 extra aircraft at the field. It's going to be very hard for John to get a bombardment TF in (he might not even try anytime soon, given the Allied navy and mines). But if he whittles down my CAP and manages to get a big daylight air strike in, I am willing to suffer the consequences.

You also suffer operating penalties when an airfield is over stacked. All just part of the bargain.

[Paladin1dcs]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Paladin, I didn't know that the Yamato/Musashi group was coming back to Medan for a third consecutive night.  the RN TF was part of a rotation to protect the troops at Medan.  (A few days back, CA Quincy led some destroyers against four of the best Japanese CAs, and came out on top.)  I did know that if Yamato and friends returned for a third consectuve night, the BBs would likely be low on ammo.  Damage and slow them down and they face an ambush by SBDs and Avengers based at Langsa.  I've already seen what RN and RAN cruisers can do to Japanese battleships.  A month back, John lost two, with a third badly damaged, up at Akyab under similar circumstances - and Avengers there applied the coup-de-grace.

I completely understand guarding your troops and remember the beatdown that Quincy administered, hence why I say I don't have a problem fighting in a situation where you're outgunned. My view, now influenced by the fact that I know now why the Devonshire couldn't have been moved out, was that it seemed that you'd sacrificed a valuable CA for no real return on investment. Given that I know now that you were guarding your beachhead, I understand your actions better and while I still hate to see a CA lost, the knowledge of what you were protecting shifts the math back in your favor, especially if you're able to capitalize on the damage by pouring on the hurt with those SBD and TBM squadrons.

As for the hurt that you laid out on the IJN BBs a few weeks before, I'd point out that battle took place in almost perfect conditions to maximize the Allied advantages of radar and air power while minimizing the IJN's advantages of firepower and armor. I'd also note that those other BBs weren't the Yamato twins. I'd only feel somewhat confident in taking on those two with either a similar number of Allied fast BBs, extreme levels of SBDs and TBMs or 3:1 odds with the older Allied BBs. I may go 2:1 if I used the Colorados, New Mexicos or Tennessees, but that would not be my first choice.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Paladin, I didn't know that the Yamato/Musashi group was coming back to Medan for a third consecutive night.  the RN TF was part of a rotation to protect the troops at Medan.  (A few days back, CA Quincy led some destroyers against four of the best Japanese CAs, and came out on top.)  I did know that if Yamato and friends returned for a third consectuve night, the BBs would likely be low on ammo.  Damage and slow them down and they face an ambush by SBDs and Avengers based at Langsa.  I've already seen what RN and RAN cruisers can do to Japanese battleships.  A month back, John lost two, with a third badly damaged, up at Akyab under similar circumstances - and Avengers there applied the coup-de-grace.

I would say you did what you intended to do, which was protect the troops at Medan. I would be ok with that exchange..you're also getting this from a guy who isn't afraid to take on BBs with Omaha class CLs...

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Does what I have at Sabang really offend readers of John's AAR? 

No. It will "pay" for any overstacking, same as any other base. You're assuming the risk-and the game is capable of making you pay for it-so let 'er rip.

[pws1225]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Does what I have at Sabang really offend readers of John's AAR? 

No. It will "pay" for any overstacking, same as any other base. You're assuming the risk-and the game is capable of making you pay for it-so let 'er rip.

+1

If you accept the risk, you are entitled to any reward that may come from it.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Dan, not a fan of either Allies or Japanese, but I'll offer my opinion.

The airfield is overloaded. If it is hit, you will suffer the consequences. That's built in to the programming. Period.

A looong time ago I was part of a larger discussion with TheElf about number of squadrons and planes at airfields versus the number 'supported'. Basically, the consequences of going beyond the numbers that are shown as supported are built in to the game as a way of inflicting on the player more of the problems encountered during the war IRL. many posters expressed angst over the battle to keep airfields from being over loaded in one way or another (aviation support, number of squadrons, number of planes, et al). Elf made it clear that they want you to be stuck with the consequences of over loading as part of a damper on the pace of operations.

In this case, with many planes, if the base gets hit you will suffer the consequences. But you knew that when you bought your ticket, right?

Gah! That's what I said. After you did. [:@] [:D]

ETA: This post was a deliberate effort to stoke the post count of this thread with wanton disregard to forum etiquette and fair play.

[pws1225]

Gives a whole new meaning to +1, doesn't it?!

[Paladin1dcs]

+1

[:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: obvert
Anyone playing the Japanese side should be most upset by how little he has done here so far to challenge you, and thus give you the opportunity to create a fortress there. Most Japanese players would have had 2-3 air HQ hubs in the area and a plethora of supporting bases ready and waiting for your invasion as early as day 1.

Well put, obvert. I find myself 'irritated' as a JFB reviewing John's preparations and responses in the region.