Germany always too powerful

[sveint]

Well, I just finished playing a 3.3 game against myself and I must say I am surprised how easily I crushed Soviet in 41. In addition I always seem to lose in PBEM games as Russia and win as Germany. In fact, not only am I convinced Germany is too strong in WIR, it seems to be a tendancy in all WWII games (computer and board) I play. I guess it comes from the desire to conquer the world we all seem to have.

There was an excellent discussion on how to balance WIR earlier so I won't repeat any details here. However one important thing went unsaid:

What is meant by balance? I think there was an innate assumption balance meant Germany would win 50% of the time. Personally I strongly disagree. I think balance should mean that Germany achieves the historical result 50% of the time and maybe wins 5% of the time.

I'd love to see such a scenario for WIR for the full campaign. Anyone else?

Svein

PS Great background material in these two threads:
Great patriotic war (real one)
German victory in Russia??

[Tom1939]

I have to agree:) I think the problem is with soviet strength. The soviets really should have an industry which is producing many times more then the germans until 43 (then say twice as much). And it really doesn't happen. I have to say I did not play much with 3.3 yet. So some things I say might be already fixed. I think it is a fact that 2 human players with same skill wouldn't have the same chance to win a campaign. There is only a great chance for german victory or a draw. Right now if the soviets stop the germans in 41 and 42 it does not mean at all that they will dominate with the mass of material (which they should have). I would say the things needed:

- No plotting penalty after 41 july. The panzers should pay for really crazy stuff. They cannot be touched if they are lead a least with a bit of caution.

- Upping soviet production (like full grown t34 factory putting out mid 40's, yak factories mid 40's as well). This would mean after the soviets get a medium experience (around 60) the werhmacht is doomed and the Luftwaffe will suffer.

It is only about reproducing the historical math where 3:1 losses in the favor of the germans means german defeat. Try that in wir with the soviets...

By the way the patriotic wars with Rick should not count here as there are no allies on that game. Of course the germans are stronger...

[dtx]

WIR is a great game, but it is weak in replicating the difficulties the Germans had in capturing fortified cities such as Lenigrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad. Another possible solution would be to reduce the attack capability of tanks attacking cities - this would be historically accurate as well. Also, increasing the strengh of city fortifications would also help. To fortify cities, Russians used huge civilian labor gangs.

Enhancing the "defendability" of cities would also greatly help the AI since its weak defense of cities is one of its greatest weaknesses.

[Popov]

I agree about this idea. It should be implemented.

An other idea: Sometimes russians can strike with succes against much larger forces, especially in woods and in swamps.

[MikeB]

I started a 41 PBEM campaign as German in Sept 2002. I am now at Jul 42. A major 15 hex retreat to avoid the 41/42 winter shatter syndrome was done. It is virtually a stalemate...though Russians have captured some 3-5 hexes since April 42. When i attack, my tanks loose about 25 to 3...whereas when Russians attack, Russians loose about 50 tanks to 20 German tanks. German attacks against Russian advancing troops is still a losing proposition.

For time being, i have decided to try and hold the line. Hopefully, Russian attacks will wear out the russian factory supply.

After a coming job interview(could be next week, could be next Sept), I hope to start up a WIR 3.3 game as Russian.
My proposed "house rules" are attached as a wordpro document. They allow extra support to Russian troops in the critical time period of Aug 10, 41 through Oct 31, 41.

While i can support the strengthening of cities...or at least reduction of tank strength against cities, i hesitate about more drastic actions.

I trust Rick's guidelines about 41/42 winter German shattered units is attached to WIR 3.3 rules or rule updates. Those mysterious "OPS" points do many things.

[matt.buttsworth]

The rules are interesting but for a strong Russian try Possum 5 or 6 with wir. We tried wir 3.1. It has enough strong units for Russians to survive albeit with a very close shave. Stopping them as German would be a terror.

Matt

[sveint]

My pet peeve is still the Soviet erratic plotting, truly an unecessary rule if there ever was one.

[loveman2]

i am playing possum v6 with wir3.3 . i am german . the problem is i consider the russian forces far to strong i am hlted at smolensk in the centre and cannot cross the dnieper in the south at kiev . the russian opponent seems greater then the german .:rolleyes:

[sveint]

Hi Loveman

So far Possum v6 seems very, very promising. Much more to my taste, Germany SHOULD have a hard time.

I'll report back here as I see how the PBEM possum games proceed (I'm playing loveman1 as Germany with HELP set for Soviet, amongst others.)

Svein