The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
John is highly pissed, because the Allied fighters pretty much ignored the Zeroes, which ignored my fighters. 

Did he preceed this raid with at least 2-3 large fighter group sweeps? If he's not 'all-in' for air superiority by sweeping your fighter CAP all.day.long, then I've no sympathy for his position whatsoever.

Any further insight why your CAP / his escort fighters ignored each other? Anything in the combat report that may have provided some additional information?

[JohnDillworth]

The carriers could finish of BB Mutsu

I would not get too fixated with sinking the Mutsu. The ship is as good as dead unless you lose your whole position.
Lots of capital ships fumbling about. There is a great chance of an epic sea battle.

[Capt. Harlock]

Also, I don't know what John has tweeked for RA. I would like to think he hasn't made it a Jap wet dream that only benefits him... I just don't know.

I'd like to think that way too, but the evidence is otherwise. To mention just one type, by December '42, there should be plenty of B-25's on hand. Losses have not been excessive, but the numbers I would expect to see are just not there.

BTW, how is Wildcat production?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

Also, I don't know what John has tweeked for RA. I would like to think he hasn't made it a Jap wet dream that only benefits him... I just don't know.

I'd like to think that way too, but the evidence is otherwise. To mention just one type, by December '42, there should be plenty of B-25's on hand. Losses have not been excessive, but the numbers I would expect to see are just not there.

BTW, how is Wildcat production?

Barring that, do you have any flying armor-clad guinea pigs?

[JocMeister]

Its not to for nothing I call AE "war against the AC pools" [:D]

In my game (8/44) I still check to pools almost every turn. And guess what? They are still low and are shaping a lot of what I´m doing. We have had a pretty unbloody war with 13.000 Allied losses and 24.000 Jap so far. Despite that I have run fighter pools dry on two occasions in 43 and 2E pools more times than I like to think of.

Especially the USAAF fighter pools are constant worry. Even now I´m only getting 110 USAAF fighters per month (80 P38s and 30 P51). You need to start looking ahead what is coming online and in what quantities and plan accordingly.

You will have to rely a lot on the USN pools so plan accordingly by sending USN/USMC squadrons to areas where you plan a lot of action. Things get easier when the Hellcat comes online with 130 AC/Month in 4/43. For now you need to change how you play and adapt to the miniscule pools. You will be outproduced until the end of the war unless John runs the economy to the ground.

But it does feel like I´m fighting my own pools more than my opponent at times.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I think the disparity in aircraft pools might actually be counterproductive to the AE gaming environment.  Here's why:

If I conclude that it's very difficult or very risky for the Allies to sustain a major land-mass air war in 1942 due to the lack of fighters, I'm much more likely to hang back in '42 and wait until into '43 when the pools are sufficient. 

Most of us know that the game can reach a state of doldrums in '42 - the period between when the Japanese slow down and when the Allies ramp up.  It's traditionally been summer '42 that is kind of quiet.  Do we really want to foster an environment whicn encourages Allied players to be less aggressive during the second half of '42?  I don't think so.

There may be exceptions - for instance, a island-based, carrier-focused campaign might still be possible in '42 - but I'm not a big fan of the pool disparity. 

No, I have to respectfully disagree. It just means that you play defense a lot longer. To be frank, in my long campaign with Ark the 1942 to 1943 period was just the best part of the game for me as the Allies. Viberpol called the shots as Japan and I rushed to put out the fires. It was a heck of a lot of fun. To give the Allies realistic parity in the air means that your game will just follow the historical course where the Allies had the thing well in hand by 1/43. Then, if your game lasts longer (unlikely) the last two and a half years won't hold as much interest for you, and you will be begging your opponent to stick it out.

In the stock scenario 2, the Japanese player should still be contesting the air until the end of 1944. Yes it gets annoying as the Allies, but fun...

Would I have stuck my nose in Sumatra in late 42? Probably not knowing what I know now. Certainly not against Viberpol who likes to hit back with a big stick. I am just a sissy I guess.[;)] But you have read your opponent well and done it-and I think you have a good chance to pull it off. Not saying that it should be easy though.

Besides it is not your lack of aircraft that is a problem. It is agreeing to that dang HR limiting strategic bombing. You should be bombing his oil by now, which would have forced him to hold back a tremendous amount of fighters to defend his oil production. Instead he has a free hand to concentrate all of his fighters offensively to attack your spearhead. That can be serious.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Besides it is not your lack of aircraft that is a problem. It is agreeing to that dang HR limiting strategic bombing. You should be bombing his oil by now, which would have forced him to hold back a tremendous amount of fighters to defend his oil production. Instead he has a free hand to concentrate all of his fighters offensively to attack your spearhead. That can be serious.

Bingo.

[JohnDillworth]

Barring that, do you have any flying armor-clad guinea pigs?

Sure laugh it up but the armored guinea pigs are much better than Japanese tanks. Japanese fan boys wish they had these in their pools!

[Cribtop]

Hell yeah! I'm looking for the Guinea Pig R&D factory right now to crank that sucker up.. Where is it? Osaka?

CR, as to Medan, attack again if recon shows reinforcements inbound or if John is flying enough troops in to tip the balance. If not, rest a few days and that DIS will clear up now that you have supply.

Also, this will become a CRAZY naval battle with all that metal floating around. Like Savo Island, Santa Cruz and Midway combined. Cool!

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Besides it is not your lack of aircraft that is a problem. It is agreeing to that dang HR limiting strategic bombing. You should be bombing his oil by now, which would have forced him to hold back a tremendous amount of fighters to defend his oil production. Instead he has a free hand to concentrate all of his fighters offensively to attack your spearhead. That can be serious.

Bingo.

Not only is it bingo, it goes back to the HR which Canoerebel insists in all his games of no strategic bombing in China.

All these HRs just make it easy to concentrate forces on select points. It allows ahistorical offensive force projection. From the perspective of allocating and positioning the necessary assets, it is much, much easier for a player to play an offensive air campaign than it is to play a defensive air campaign.

Never ceases to amaze me when players demand that the game replicate historical capabilities when they believe it would suit them, then blithely disregard historical capabilities when they believe it would suit them.

Every player knows from the beginning that the Allied air production is historical but the Japanese is not. So what do we see, mass transfer of American air units to fight a protracted air campaign in the CBI. Can anyone then be surprised that a shortage of American airframes for the frontline units ensues? IRL the American airframe pools sufficed because there was no protracted air campaign anywhere in that period.

Again players demand the game to faithfully replicate the capabilities of the war but then demand it to be fun. There is no fun in war. Boredom followed by short intensive periods of sheer terror is war. Neither state is one which can be honestly described as fun. Real life commanders don't find it to be fun to write those "It is with sadness that I write to inform you that your husband/son ....". Nor did the grunts find reoccurance of a malaria attack to be fun. These and many other real features of war are not present in the game.

The entire game has abstractions which make ahistorical play guaranteed from day 1 if an unhistorical start is employed. It is a game, adapt to it and play the game as designed by the devs is the order of the day. Their responsibility was
to structure a game which would capture the flavour of the PTO but still remain a commercial product which would survive in the marketplace. In that they did a magnificent job. And remember, from the beginning the devs have been of the view that AE is quite playable without any HR.

Alfred

[Nemo121]

As re: what Alfred said

And remember, from the beginning the devs have been of the view that AE is quite playable without any HR.

They were right, so long as you play with PDU OFF. Apart from 1 or 2 HRs to avoid game bugs my games are pretty much no holds-barred games and they play surprisingly well since neither player has to second-guess every order vs a long list of HRs.


IIRC in RA Allied aircraft replacements ARE reduced in this phase of the war while Japan gets more and earlier. It is a Jap Fanboy wet dream scenario after all with little pretense at balance... and when you look at what they've done to address balance issues much of it won't work and achieve the balance they say they are aiming for. Pretty much invariably these failings of balancing factors to actually balance benefit the Japanese.

But you agreed to this scenario so you've got to live with it. I do think though that you must have far too many squadrons in the rear if you're struggling as much as you say. I'd be happy to have a look at save file if you would like - no pressure though, I'm just a bit mystified as to how you could be so low on fighters at the front ( even bearing in mind what Alfred says about replacement rates being based on there being no attritional warfare at this stage ).

[Canoerebel]

I don't have any squadrons in the rear to speak of.
 
Zero P-40E, P-40K and P-38G anywhere but Sumatra.
 
I do have two P-39 squadrons in Oz and several six-plane squadrons at San Francisco.  I could swap these for "lower models," but I have zero lower models because I've already done this to the max.
 
I have four or five permanently restricted P-38E models at West Coast bases.  I can't downgrade them for the same reason.
 
There is nothing else anywhere.  Pearl Harbor is defended by P-40B, Texans and some navy fighters.  Same with most of the USA.

[Nemo121]

Then Allied aerial replacement rates must have been gutted more than I remembered in RA... Jap Fanboy wet dream etc....

[JeffroK]

So now you have to start working on how to divert JIII from amassing his air force around Sumatra. Another fortnight could see him in total control of the skies.

Like all AFB obsessions about the KB, he will be watching for every sighting of the USN CV's, seeing them In the Bay of Bengal will not be a threat.

Where can your CV be sent, in a timely manner, which might get him worried again??

I would also recommend you open the editor and see what game you are playing, JIII and all JFB know exactly what they face so you shouldnt feel constrained. Cant wait for a good JFB to play a Scen1 game against a good AFB.

[1275psi]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

So now you have to start working on how to divert JIII from amassing his air force around Sumatra. Another fortnight could see him in total control of the skies.

Like all AFB obsessions about the KB, he will be watching for every sighting of the USN CV's, seeing them In the Bay of Bengal will not be a threat.

Where can your CV be sent, in a timely manner, which might get him worried again??

I would also recommend you open the editor and see what game you are playing, JIII and all JFB know exactly what they face so you shouldnt feel constrained. Cant wait for a good JFB to play a Scen1 game against a good AFB.

1275psi (herbiesan, the little ship that could) vs cantona
NO house rules.............except this, our little electron warriors are treated like real people, and we operate A/C like IRL, and the game is operating perfectly. Actually always wondered why so many have never given it a try, we are deep into 44 and the game is far from done.

[JuanG]

A quick glance at RA compared to Scenario 1 reveals the following about aircraft production. I've only listed important types and only those relevant to 1942 and early 1943. Those not mentioned are identical to Scenario 1.

(Where numbers are indicated as X->Y, X is the Scenario 1 value and Y is the RA value. In all cases production duration is the same as Scen1 unless otherwise stated.)

USN
F4F-3A build rate 4->8

PBY-5 build rate 0->2
PBY-5A build rate 0->2
(These two are typically built by factories, hence the 0 in Scen1)

SBD-3 build rate 0->12
(Same case as above)

TBD-1 build rate 3->12

USAAF
P-40E build rate 35->45

A-24 build rate 15->18
A-24B build rate 9->18

C-47 build rate 28->36

F-4 build rate 4->6
F-5A build rate 4->6
F-7A build rate 0->6

RAF/FAA
Hurricane IIb build rate 16->21

Swordfish build rate 0->3

[witpqs]

IIRC, RA is based off of Da Babes. Whatever corrections were made to a/c manufacturing there would have been the starting place.

[JohnDillworth]

I've been giving some thought about aircraft pools. If you accept the fact that the Japanese are allowed to produce more as a way of leveling play I think the Allied rates are realistic and Dan's situation is very much of his own making. Dan has maintained an aggressive posture since early in the war. This is not a case of the allies going on their first offensive in 1942 and not having enough aircraft....it's a case of the Allies conducting their SECOND offensive in 1942. CR's adventures in Burma must have burned through a significant number of airframes. Now maybe all those aircraft would not have been available but if 50% of the losses in Burma were available I don't think the shortage would be this acute. There really was not plan to go to Sumantra, CR just responded to circumstances and hit a target of opportunity. The pools were not as deep as they could have been but this is what he signed up for. You know the old saying from the Princess Bride? "Never get involved in a land war in Asia"? Well in WITP it might be better stated as "Never get involved in an AIR war in Asia"

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
And remember, from the beginning the devs have been of the view that AE is quite playable without any HR.

Depends on the dev of whom you speak. Nikademus and TheElf both either used a number of HRs (Nik) in their personal games or advised specific implementation of HRs (TheElf) to smooth gameplay. There may have been others, but these two can be confirmed readily enough.

[Canoerebel]

This was pretty much the plan all along.  Bleed John in Burma - air and ground, both of which have been accomplished.  Then open a second campaign somewhere else - the initial plan being the Aleutians, switching to New Guinea, switching to Sumatra.  The Allied air efforts have not been particularly aggressive, IMO.  The air war has been 95% defensive, which increased efficiency.

The results speak for themselves.  John has lost far more aircraft than have I.  Bottom line, though, is that this strategy is of questionable utility.  I think it's going to work against John, but I'll be very hesitant about using it in the future.

I agree that I've been moderately aggressive overall in this game.  (Hey, don't most Japanese players hate the Sir Robin strategy?)  I think I've also been unusually successful to date and I've also been very cautious.  To date (and subject to catastrophic change at any moment), I haven't lost a carrier, my battleship and cruiser fleets are in good shape, the infantry is in good shape, the Allied airforce has inflicted 50% more casualties on Japan, and the Allies have established a solid (not rock solid, but solid) position in Sumatra.

In general, I would expect under these circumstances that the Allies would be in relatively good shape and Japan would be in big trouble.  I do think John is in big trouble, but the air war is definitely askew IMO. Having fought carefully, efficiently, and effectively, the Allies shouldn't have such thin pools IMO.  If the air war was being waged well but pools were thin in the real war, the Allies would have addressed that.  I can't.  I'm also puzzled how I can have just one P-38G squadron when it seems like other games I read the players have several in operation (but perhaps I'm wrong).

So, what I'm taking from this is that the Allies have to fight even more defensively in the air in 1942 than I had thought, which in turns means the Allies will have to be more cautious, which promotes Sir Robin and Summer Doldrums.  Not always, but I think that's what the game is promoting.

Somebody mentioned the fact that such a strategy would open the Allies to Auto Victory.  Not at all. Right now John has a 1.77 to 1 lead.  This is at the point where he should be peaking.  He barely made it to 2:1 back in late summer and has been in decline since then.  As you can tell, though, the Allies have alot of room to avoid the 4:1 auto victory situation.  What I've learned from this game is that the Allies can fight aggressively and effectively in 1942, but it may well be against their interests to do so.