Discontinued?

[fogger]

The pro & cons of 3.4 is not the issue here.

The issue is, is TOAW dead?

If TOAW is dead then I think that someone at Matrix should tell us ASAP. I received the following out of office message about 2 weeks ago


“Will be out of the office dealing with family health issues until July 8th.

Please contact Iain McNeil (iain@slitherine.co.uk) and JD McNeil (jdm@slitherine.co.uk) with any urgent development-related issues.

You may also contact Andrew Loveridge (andrewl@matrixgames.com) and Gerry Edwards (gerrye@matrixgames.com) with any urgent production-related issues.

I will not be regularly checking e-mail or voicemail until my return, but I will be reachable if necessary through Iain and JD.

Regards,

- Erik “


So unless Iain, JD or Andrew known something, then we may have to wait until Erik comes back. (Assuming he is not back yet).

[josant]

The issue is, is TOAW dead?

If TOAW is dead then I think that someone at Matrix should tell us ASAP. I received the following out of office message about 2 weeks ago

Erik told us 6 months ago not to worry, that toaw still have support but since then there has been no news. I think that if matrix has left the game they should communicate us, only for respect for all those who have purchased the game.

Yeah, I had thoughts along those lines but with no AA you can't seriously play WW2 and later. And with no ignore losses that fairly screws any WW1 scenarios. So you are left with U.S. Civil War or earlier. I don't think that's what most people bought the game for.

Until matrix resolve this with a patch, i consider that the game is broken and unplayable with modern scenarios. Matrix please release a patch to fix these two things.

[Shazman]

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
I am kinda lucky that I create limited and operational campaigns with a scale that more or less negates the bugs or where they don't have much effect. E.g. Eastern Front scenarios with Btl/Rgt units where in most cases the AA units are separate units...

Once again, look in the equipment editor. There you will find that almost every squad and every vehicle has an AA value. It does not matter if you separate out the AA units. The AA value that almost every squad and almost every vehicle and every ship has does not work. I don't care how many AA units you make. This is broken. And it's a bad break. From WW2 onward airpower is very, very important and so the AA values are also very, very important to the game. If it doesn't work it isn't simply bugged, it's badly broken.

If something is that badly broken and doesn't get fixed exactly why should anyone in their right mind bother buying something that is that screwed up? And if you buy something without knowing it's badly broken and after buying it discover this then why would you bother buying anything else from a company that doesn't bother to fix things so badly broken?

And then there's the ignore losses issue. Wouldn't want to play the Soviets in WW2 without ignore losses. Or Germans at Berlin. Or WW1. Or Stalingrad. Or Leningrad. Or Sealion. And on and on and on.

So, is TOAW going to be discontinued? I only got stuff from people not at Matrix. But considering it's not supported anymore I would not be surprised.

[sPzAbt653]

A further help might be a limitation on the Engineer Build Rate

Good point Rob. We can use Assault Squads instead of Engineer Squads. Same combat value without the build rate.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Shazman

Yeah, I had thoughts along those lines but with no AA you can't seriously play WW2 and later.

I disagree. Aircraft losses to anti-aircraft fire are not especially important in Operational-level land warfare.

The impact on the effectiveness of air attacks caused by anti-aircraft fire, now that's important. However, TOAW has never simulated that and no serious proposals have been made for it to do so.

Anyway, the game's had its wrinkles forever. I find it still works pretty well, and if you find the problems introduced by 3.4 are overwhelming, you can always play COW.

Someone at Matrix needs to buy a set of balls and do the right thing.

You've got to understand that businesses are not there to do what you want them to. They're there to make a profit and I would not ask them to do anything out of the goodness of their hearts. It's not fair to them.

TOAW is "dead" because it is an extreme fringe game.

[Shazman]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

You've got to understand that businesses are not there to do what you want them to. They're there to make a profit and I would not ask them to do anything out of the goodness of their hearts. It's not fair to them.

TOAW is "dead" because it is an extreme fringe game.

The sheep have spoken. And with that attitude you are sure to get what you desire. Nothing.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

A further help might be a limitation on the Engineer Build Rate

Good point Rob. We can use Assault Squads instead of Engineer Squads. Same combat value without the build rate.

I used special Sapper and Sturmpionier squads to get around this anyway... Still, it's a b*gger to use workarounds for the I-L and the AA issues; 2 simple things that could be fixed with some fiddling of the code.

Klink, Oberst

[larryfulkerson]

About two weeks ago I asked Bob Cross if TOAW had been "retired" and he said he didn't have any information either way.
That little factoid combined w/ the absence of a dedicated developer to work on it leads me to believe it's been retired, discontinued,
abandoned.

I think as a gesture of good will that the powers that be could release 3.5.0.52 as it is. I've been using that on my
Karkov '43 playtest and on my Barbarosa '41 playtest and I'm happy with it. There's a problem if you have an
amphibious unit trying to invade a beach because if it gets bombarded by the enemy there's a good chance that the losses to the
embarked unit will be into the "negative numbers". I usually disband units that happens to because theres no good fix for that yet. Other
than that I haven't noticed any other problems. Some users wouldn't want to play w/ that lilttle glitch but land campaigns won't have a
problem w/ sea-embarked units.

The bottom line here is that 3.4 isn't up to par, 3.5 isn't perfect, 4.0 is never coming.

[r6kunz]

Larry,
Nice to see one of the TOAW's big guns pitching in...thanks for the input.

signed
Kunz, HPTM

[Sensei.Tokugawa]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
You've got to understand that businesses are not there to do what you want them to. They're there to make a profit and I would not ask them to do anything out of the goodness of their hearts. It's not fair to them.

That's great, I have almost laughed my arse off, it's so typical of any institiution and company to justify their avoiding doing what they're suppossed to be doing.Neoliberal crap. The next in line is the postman saying that I should not be expecting his services and my mail to be delivered as it is not fair to expect that of him since he's being very busy and after other things. It reminds me a chat I had with a so-called consultant from a mobile phone service network. When I was compalining, the guy interrupted me bluntly, demanding me to answer why I was judging them. At first I was stunned, but then promptly answered: because I am a goddamned client and I demand the quality You made me believe You offer and for which I have been paying for.

The problem is that these days "the business" came to a conclusion that it is much easier and cheaper to work over diminishing the client expectations that over fine-tunning of their offer. They have those yuppie "customer service specialist" who are paid to train their staff not to assist and help the client, but to pacify him, manipulate and finally persuade him to pay more for getting less. Thanks for a bit of propaganda.

[Alpha77]

Age old discussion.... regarding software it is really not that easy. Compared to if you buy a car and this car works good. But it has one flaw, the seller promised it has air conditioning system. The car is fine, but this system does not work. You have warranty on your car go back to seller and demand to get the promised feature. That should be clear to everyone (and normally it would be an easy task to get your rights with hardware)... but it is different in software/games. Thats how it is, we can go back back to the first windows OS, this was always a problem.

Also both sides (from their POV!) can claim they are correct, the player wants a promised feature to work. The company notices this game is old and has not much sales anymore, or better lets say it is very difficult to attract new buyers for it cause it is such an old game system (and most players these days want good graphics and sounds 3D and stuff you know). This is a niche game. So they realise putting anymore effort in it would be a waste of assets. Maybe they see the few players that are hurt by it as not important enough, cause they might be not that good customers anyway (as they seem to satysfied with such an old game system and even make new scenarioes for it!). So the company may plan to better work on newer games which have better chances to attract new player and such players that buy more games anyway cause they want always something new and shiny. Compared to guys that still like old stuff like TOAW or Harpoon or SPWAW (etc)....

Just some thoughts from both sides.

However in this case the company could easily solve at least the 2-3 serious errors, even if they dont want to make anymore patches (this would be a bugfix, which should not eat up too much of their resources). I am mostly interested in Cold War/WW3 stuff the last months, so airpower would be quite important to work at least half properly.[:)]

if the company doesnt do at least their basic duties for customers you should avoid buying anything from them in the future. But it seems some companies (not sure if Matrix belongs to them) can just walk over customers cause have products that are needed and have a kind of monopoly on the market (eg. Coca Cola had this before other companies also made cola, but coca cola still leads or Micrsoft has/had it, Ebay, Google even your very first asian restaurant may had this, before asian food became widely available in the west and now your 1st asian food restaurant must compete with others and IMPROVE their service !)

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Shazman

The sheep have spoken. And with that attitude you are sure to get what you desire. Nothing.

First: screw you too.

Second, demanding something and declaring you're owed it will not get you anything. You may be surprised to learn that you are not a five year old and no-one is going to come when you cry.

If you really are so dedicated to your cause, I suggest you follow Norm's footsteps and write your own game. No-one is going to do it for you.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: burroughs

That's great, I have almost laughed my arse off, it's so typical of any institiution and company to justify their avoiding doing what they're suppossed to be doing.Neoliberal crap. The next in line is the postman saying that I should not be expecting his services and my mail to be delivered as it is not fair to expect that of him since he's being very busy and after other things.

This analogy doesn't hold up. You paid Matrix for a copy of TOAW. Did they refuse to send it to you after you'd paid for it?

I don't think there was any point where Matrix signed an agreement with you, personally, to further develop the game. Moreover, they have in fact made several major advances in doing so, none of which you were charged for.

If you want to vent, go vent at Take-Two Interactive, who were so utterly obtuse as to demand a totally outrageous sum for the core rights to TOAW. If they had been more reasonable a) they would probably have got more money for their IP and b) Norm Koger would have gotten back the rights to his game and taken it from there years ago.

[Shazman]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Shazman

The sheep have spoken. And with that attitude you are sure to get what you desire. Nothing.

First: screw you too.

Second, demanding something and declaring you're owed it will not get you anything. You may be surprised to learn that you are not a five year old and no-one is going to come when you cry.

You call me a two year old after such an immature response. Hypocrite.

If asking to get something fixed that's broken is crying then I'm guilty. I'm sure you say nothing when you purchase anything and it doesn't work properly. You go into a corner and say nothing like a whipped dog because you are unworthy of being treated fairly. (End of sarcasm.) [8|]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
If you really are so dedicated to your cause, I suggest you follow Norm's footsteps and write your own game. No-one is going to do it for you.

Oh, now there's another sagacious piece of wisdom. If somebody doesn't like something because it's broken they should stfu and go make their own. Sorry, if something is broken and I don't have the expertise because I don't know everything there is to know like yourself then I will most certainly ask that it be fixed. And no self righteous egotist will convince me otherwise no matter high tall their plaster throne.

All I have ever said in this thread was I heard from two fairly good sources the game is being shelved. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. And if it isn't I said at least one fix should be made, probably two. How that is crying is a real stretch. Perhaps you need a hobby to consume your time instead of trolling in threads about things that so obviously do not concern you.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Shazman

All I have ever said in this thread was I heard from two fairly good sources the game is being shelved. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. And if it isn't I said at least one fix should be made, probably two. How that is crying is a real stretch. Perhaps you need a hobby to consume your time instead of trolling in threads about things that so obviously do not concern you.

It remains a rumor. Still "someone" "over at HPS" (what/where is this?) or at Netwargaming Italia doesn't sound like "fairly good sources". I also guess that was in pvt.

[Shazman]

@golden delicious. Hey, sorry I got carried away man. Shouldn't fall for bait like that. [:D][:D][:D]

@Telumar. What is HPS? Really?  http://www.hpssims.com/shopping/shopdis ... gories.asp

[larryfulkerson]

About January of this year Erik gave us the understanding that TOAW was not going to be retired and that the reason was that Ralph was
having some personal difficulties and so on. Well, I'm thinking that maybe Ralph should be replaced. I just happened to know how to write code
and hereby volunteer to help Ralph. Sounds harsh, maybe, but even though I like Ralph as a person, there's a business to run here.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Shazman

@Telumar. What is HPS? Really?  http://www.hpssims.com/shopping/shopdis ... gories.asp

Of course i know HPS. I just found no place over there where one can write, post, comment etc. Forums, you know.

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

....hereby volunteer to help Ralph. ...

I am not that good programmer but volunteer too - for testing all modern stuff from the cold war era [8D]


BTW: I own 2 HPS game, one of em Fulda 85. It isnt bad, but I noticed the TOAW system is much more flexible. Also I can only play this small part of the front. In TOAW there are already 3 or 4 scens for the whole front. Or even half of the world [;)]

[Shazman]

Ah, I see. Yes, you are correct, no forums.