Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

[BBfanboy]

To be sure - HBs do not come on the board with anything more than 10-25 Low Naval (100-4000 feet) experience. Even NavB is poor, and it starts at 5000 feet. But after a couple of months of training in Low Nav to get them into the 55-70 range experience, level bombers on Low Nav CAN be devastating. But who can afford to devote that much time to training HBs for a secondary mission in 1942 or even early 1943?

Seems to me the HR, if any, should specify no HB naval bombing below 5000 feet [low naval]. In 1942-43 as you are experiencing, they can't hit much anyway and by 1944 it is quite reasonable to expect the Allies to have enough HB to train some in Naval Bombing below 10,000. Numerous light flak guns would have kept them from going below 5000.

Buuuuut, if you wish to play the game as designed and make your choices on Low Nav and NavB training, I agree that not having a HR on it is the way to go.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

To be sure - HBs do not come on the board with anything more than 10-25 Low Naval (100-4000 feet) experience. Even NavB is poor, and it starts at 5000 feet. But after a couple of months of training in Low Nav to get them into the 55-70 range experience, level bombers on Low Nav CAN be devastating. But who can afford to devote that much time to training HBs for a secondary mission in 1942 or even early 1943?

Seems to me the HR, if any, should specify no HB naval bombing below 5000 feet [low naval]. In 1942-43 as you are experiencing, they can't hit much anyway and by 1944 it is quite reasonable to expect the Allies to have enough HB to train some in Naval Bombing below 10,000. Numerous light flak guns would have kept them from going below 5000.

Buuuuut, if you wish to play the game as designed and make your choices on Low Nav and NavB training, I agree that not having a HR on it is the way to go.

I'll take your word on the training timeline. I've never trained 4Es for naval anything. They're too valuable for strat purposes to do tactical airframes' jobs for them. I just looked at my array of all Allied 4e units and the naval training levels, both kinds, runs on average in the mid-to-high 20s. A few pilots are 40ish, but not many. OTOH, many Ground scores are in the high-60s.

Any Allied player who takes perfectly good B-17 units off-line for months at any time in the war to train in naval bombing is guilty of malpractice. In 1942? Hanging offense.

The HR is the grossest example of WITP hang-over in all the world of HRs. And there are some pretty squirrely ones in competition.

[witpqs]

IMO there is no need any more for altitude HRs on 4EB. The altitude divisions in the training/skill set get the job done. If you send in untrained 4EB they are very, very unlikely to hit anything except by pure chance (happened during the war) and if you send them in low they are much more likely to get shot up and/or suffer ops losses.

I have also noticed (and IIRC the devs said) that there is a service division (at least for the US and I presume Japan) with respect to acquiring skills. The USAAF guys simply train up a whole lot slower on missions naval than do the Navy boys. It takes a lot longer to get Army 4EB trained up on NavB or LowNav skills.

So, yes, you are really making a strategic decision if you decide to train 4EB for naval attacks. Those Navy 4EB, sure, but the Army 4EB are a bad choice.

YMMV.

[BBfanboy]

Interesting point on the Army/Navy service division on Naval Bombing. I didn't know that.
Does it work the other way around for land bombing - i.e. Navy sucks?

[BBfanboy]

Edit: double post.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Interesting point on the Army/Navy service division on Naval Bombing. I didn't know that.
Does it work the other way around for land bombing - i.e. Navy sucks?

Probably, but it seems less so. I suspect they are trying to mirror historical efficacy in training. Navy pilots might not get as good as Army at land bombing, but they did do and train at it quite a bit to support invasions and wreck bases.

[Bullwinkle58]

June 20, 1942

The Lambs

1) Intense operations continue around Java. Heavy Allied losses. But around the map I detect the beginnings of burn-out by the Japanese heavy bombers. Many are flying at max range day after day, and unit numbers are dropping,. Also, turn-backs in the face of CAP are a bit more frequent.

The BB-led TF seen near Batavia has moved to the Soerbaja sector.

Night Time Surface Combat, near Banjoewangi at 57,107, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato
BB Mutsu
CA Furutaka
CL Kitakami
CL Oi
DD Ayanami
DD Sagiri
DD Yugiri
DD Amagiri
DD Oboro
DD Akebono

Allied Ships
PT TM-10
PT TM-11, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT TM-12, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT TM-13, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

2) USS Shark lays a small field at Banjo, shoots and misses a DD, and heads back to Soerbaja to reload fish.

3) Support ships from Soerbaja are put in two TFs and sent to do their best, heading for Batavia with an ultimayte goal of Cocos I. It is not to be. They are slaughtered.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Semarang at 53,101

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
D3A1 Val x 13

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AS Zuiderkruis, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
AVP Pollux, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
AG Gemma, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
AMc Gedeh, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk

Morning Air attack on TF, near Semarang at 54,100

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13
B5N2 Kate x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
AVP Valk, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AGP Sirius, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AMc Alor, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

4) Attacks against Soerbaja are again heavy, but the Allies do a bit better today.

Morning Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 42,500 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 35

Allied aircraft
75A-7 Hawk x 2
Hurricane IIb Trop x 2
P-38E Lightning x 4
P-39D Airacobra x 6
P-40E Warhawk x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed

Morning Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 18 NM, estimated altitude 44,500 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 7

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 1
P-38E Lightning x 2
P-39D Airacobra x 2
P-40E Warhawk x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed

Morning Air attack on TF, near Soerabaja at 56,104

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 46 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
H6K4 Mavis x 10

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 1
P-38E Lightning x 2
P-39D Airacobra x 2
P-40E Warhawk x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
H6K4 Mavis: 4 destroyed
H6K4 Mavis: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
AMc Slamat

Die, Mavis! Die! The animation and next day loss report say all 10 were shot down. A lot of HI gone for an unharmed AMc. A later raid costs Japan two more of the big girls.

In addition to these the carriers send two waves of Kates at CL Perth, which is waiting to evac with a CA coming off Pierside. All miss.

The Allies try mini naval raids of a couple each of Helldivers, B-17s, Marauders, Banshees, and Dutch junk. No hits, some losses to Zero CAP.

5) Palembang, empty now, is hit, but a lot less than the last two days. The AF is closed for now, but there are very large numbers of engineers there. A heavy tank LCU sneaks into Oosthaven and will go to PBang. Prepping for Djambi. Far to the west the RN carriers link up with the incoming 32nd ID TF and new waypoints are ordered.

6) Two good fleet boats penetrate Marcus I. harbor and shoot duds at fat merchants. Up off western Kyushu a Mavis ASW patrol nails USS Gudgeon in a non-reported attack (in the CombatEvents) for 97 System and 78 Flooding. I should scuttle tomorrow, but I'm going to give her a chance. Subs can sometimes do remarkable at-sea repairs. And scuttling one hex off the HI in 1942 just seems wrong. That crew would want the chance to escape.

7) Some of the red icons on the IO side of Java do an unopposed landing at Loemadjang. Results seem odd to me. Either no prep at all, or too long at sea. Or both. The disabled numbers are huge.

Amphibious Assault at Loemadjang (56,106)

TF 367 troops unloading over beach at Loemadjang, 56,106

Japanese ground losses:
1212 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 138 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 24 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 38 (0 destroyed, 38 disabled)
Vehicles lost 8 (0 destroyed, 8 disabled)

19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of 33rd Div /4
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost in surf during unload of 33rd Div /6
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad accidentally lost during unload of 33rd Div /8

[Encircled]

Up off western Kyushu a Mavis ASW patrol nails USS Gudgeon in a non-reported attack (in the CombatEvents) for 97 System and 78 Flooding. I should scuttle tomorrow, but I'm going to give her a chance. Subs can sometimes do remarkable at-sea repairs. And scuttling one hex off the HI in 1942 just seems wrong. That crew would want the chance to escape.

Managed to get the Scamp from just outside Tokyo Bay to the harbour at Adak Island, at 1 hex a turn, just to see it sink as soon as it got there, . Felt better for it though

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Up off western Kyushu a Mavis ASW patrol nails USS Gudgeon in a non-reported attack (in the CombatEvents) for 97 System and 78 Flooding. I should scuttle tomorrow, but I'm going to give her a chance. Subs can sometimes do remarkable at-sea repairs. And scuttling one hex off the HI in 1942 just seems wrong. That crew would want the chance to escape.

Managed to get the Scamp from just outside Tokyo Bay to the harbour at Adak Island, at 1 hex a turn, just to see it sink as soon as it got there, . Felt better for it though

Well, that's what's important. [8D]

If I can get her anywhere with 97 System I'll be amazed.

[Bullwinkle58]

June 21, 1942


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1-2 PUNCH

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Without further ado:

1) Ground combat at Bataan (78,77)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 53599 troops, 557 guns, 438 vehicles, Assault Value = 1771

Defending force 39937 troops, 455 guns, 563 vehicles, Assault Value = 739

Japanese adjusted assault: 1590

Allied adjusted defense: 289

Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Bataan !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), fatigue(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
3844 casualties reported
Squads: 35 destroyed, 153 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 55 disabled
Engineers: 45 destroyed, 22 disabled
Guns lost 60 (4 destroyed, 56 disabled)
Vehicles lost 46 (3 destroyed, 43 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
39612 casualties reported
Squads: 1131 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 4421 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 133 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 527 (527 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 568 (568 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 32

Assaulting units:
21st Ind. Engineer Regiment
38th Division
16th Recon Regiment
20th Infantry Regiment
80th Infantry Regiment
124th Infantry Regiment
9th Infantry Regiment
110th Division
4th Tank Regiment
10th Garrison Unit
48th Division
16th Engineer Regiment
7th Tank Regiment
2nd Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
14th Army
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
36th Const Co

Defending units:
4th Marine Regiment
45th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
Manila Bay Defenses
71st PA Infantry Division
21st PA Infantry Division
31st PA Infantry Division
41st PA Infantry Division
194th Tank Battalion
26th PS Cavalry Regiment
31st Infantry Regiment
51st PA Infantry Division
11th PA Infantry Division
2nd PA Constabulary Division
II Philippine Corps
Asiatic Fleet
14th PS Engineer Regiment
I Philippine Corps
192nd Tank Battalion
Bataan USN Base Force
803rd Engineer Aviation Battalion
200th & 515th Coast AA Regiment
Provisional GMC Grp
Cavite USN Base Force
88th PS Field Artillery Regiment
USAFFE
Far East USAAF
91st PA Infantry Division
Manila USAAF Base Force
57th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
3rd/12th PA Inf Battalion
Clark Field USAAF Base Force
301st PA Field Artillery Regiment

[center]You will be avenged![/center]

2) Ground combat at Chengtu (75,41)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 92459 troops, 768 guns, 857 vehicles, Assault Value = 3242

Defending force 30862 troops, 180 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 710

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1

Japanese adjusted assault: 4178

Allied adjusted defense: 577

Japanese assault odds: 7 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Chengtu !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
5107 casualties reported
Squads: 37 destroyed, 722 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 59 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 110 disabled
Guns lost 41 (4 destroyed, 37 disabled)
Units pursuing 2

Allied ground losses:
13569 casualties reported
Squads: 620 destroyed, 176 disabled
Non Combat: 553 destroyed, 101 disabled
Engineers: 78 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 118 (76 destroyed, 42 disabled)
Units retreated 12

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
36th Division
37th Division
12th Indpt Infantry Regiment
2nd Ind.Mixed Regiment
10th Tank Regiment
20th Recon Regiment
58th Division
11th Indpt Infantry Regiment
28th Engineer Regiment
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
9th Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
60th Division
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
26th Engineer Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Regiment
70th Division
24th Division
9th Ind.Mixed Brigade
41st Division
22nd/C Division
1st Army
5th Army
11th Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
3rd Chinese Corps
40th Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Corps
7th Chinese Corps
2nd Construction Regiment
21st Group Army
5th Chinese Base Force
13th Group Army
3rd Construction Regiment
1st War Area
10th Chinese Base Force
1st Construction Regiment

3) Gudgeon didn't make it. She sank in deep water one hex from the attack. Still On Patrol . . .

4) The last living PT boat in Java:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Banjoewangi at 57,107, Range 4,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Asanagi
DD Yunagi
DD Hasu
DD Tsuga
TB Kari
xAP Terukuni Maru
xAP Hakone Maru
xAP Kashima Maru
xAP Husimi Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
xAP Miike Maru

Allied Ships
PT TM-10

Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

5) Oil

Morning Air attack on Urumchi , at 79,11

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 9 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 5

Allied aircraft losses
LB-30 Liberator: 1 damaged

Oil hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x LB-30 Liberator bombing from 5000 feet *
City Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb

6) Palembang bombed, Soerbaja heavily bombed. CL Perth and leaking CA escape toward Batavia for now. USS Shark holed twice harassing eastern Java landings. Many ships seen at Balikpapan; tankers intercepted this week heading toward HI, but missed.

7) Prome AF to 7. Magwe to 7. Major troop movements underway in Burma.

8) Orphan Anne not heard from. Japanese high command ashamed Bataan took to mid-June. The defenders there took their pound of flesh, plus.

[Bullwinkle58]

Latest VPs

[Bullwinkle58]

June 22, 1942

BB-O-Rama

1) Nine separate Allied sub attacks and/or ASW actions against. No hits, light damage near Java. Half-a-dozen subs operating at Banjo and up the IO side of the island. More headed home from PI supply missions. Another dud in a fat merchant at Marcus I.

2) BBs Yamishiro and Fuso show up near the invasion zone in Java. Also CS Chitose. Nice to get a fish or three involved. The majority of the IJN heavy surface fleet is in a very tight region right now. The Lone PT from Soerbaja sorties on these guys, but misses and escapes.

3) Urumchi gets a shift to night Manpower. 685 Fires.

4) Soerbaja CAP continues to put up a fight, but the squadron numbers have been trimmed a bit to take some pressure off the AV repair. At Oosthaven (and in China a bit) some 4Es are moved out of theater, mostly to Calcutta, to heal and rest.

5) West of Sumatra a float plane from Oklahoma sees a sub, making the 32nd ID's transit suspect. The RN has joined and waypoints are shifted again. About 3-4 days in to port. PBang is pounded again, but the air field is bare. Supply is destroyed, but there is over 200,000 present. Many Bettys and Sallys are destroyed or damaged.

6) Prome is swept and bombed. So far no movement dots to indicate Japan sees the LCUs moving forward on Bassein and from Toungoo. Multiple rested and supplied Chinese corps have moved out of the Mandalay group down the railway to Toungoo, with prep for Pegu.

7) In China, the Japanese huge stack has moved BACK into Tsuyung, and Allied fighters intercept transports moving into that base. Is he trying to fly out units to use at Chungking? It's a long yellow road back to China, but I can't believe flying out is really going to work. And flying anything in seems like overkill when the stack is 110,000 already in 27ish LCUs. Supply up from China should be fine as well. So I don't know what's up. The Big Stack is seven miles from the road to the west. If his stack follows instead of going back to China I may need to leave some at Paoshan, even though Lashio is Forts 6 and has about 2000 AV.

8) Carrier air near Java sink four fleeing AMces. CL Perth and wounded CA Pensacola are nearly to Batavia, left alone.

9) No ground action at all. Lots of unloading.

10) Mojave expands airfield to size 6
Tacoma expands port to size 7
Attu Island expands fortifications to size 1
Dutch Harbor expands port to size 5
Cox's Bazar expands airfield to size 2
Port Augusta expands airfield to size 4

[Bullwinkle58]

Mike and I have exchanged emails about our respective summer schedules. His is far more busy than mine. Turns until mid-August will be here and there. I said I would prefer not to have a full hiatus as some other PBEM games have done, as I believe many of those become permanent and I think our game is into Interesting Times. I'd rather limp awhile.

When I get a turn I will continue daily posting here.

[Bullwinkle58]

Operation SNAGGLEPUSS





This operation will be unlike previous ones such as FUDD and UNDERDOG. It is intended to be an on-going, open-ended thing with loose corners and evolving goals. Overall it is a Pacific-centric operation, but with Burma elements. Now that I know where at least some of the KB is (the rest is probably, but not assuredly, in upgrade as I have good recon of Truk, Kwaj, Ponape, Marcus, and Guam) and most of the BB/CA force, I am going forward. But, again, things have changed in just the past few turns with the fall of Bataan and will continue to evolve.

The objectives of the operation are to prod and force reactions that use up Japanese time, fuel, and assets responding to small events. Inside of this I have rough plans for more significant operations which may look like small events until too late. I have converted all three USN SST subs, and they will play a role. I have carefully built up Wake, and massively built up Rabaul, to use in this effort. I still lack any sort of air parity, and this is a big lack, but my recon so far also indicates that Japan has not heavily fortified many Pacific bases. As I hope in this game to "go north" and "go center", and avoid a DEI slug-fest, SNAGGLEPUSS will serve to open some new areas for Allied growth.

The key here is to remember that it's the middle of the summer of 1942. In my head I constantly fight the feeling it should be later because of the real time we've already been playing. But it isn't. Japan still has the means to crush any moves I make at their choice. In some cases in the op I want them to choose. I want them to use up fuel and time and ships. In other places though I want to come and stay.

So, loosey-goosey. I think SNAGGLEPUSS is a perfect mascot for this. He doesn't know if he's going stage left or stage right. But the guy does know when not to stick around. [:)]

[Rio Bravo]

Steve-

Yesterday, I bought War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition.

I have had a chance to briefly look at it.

Thanks to your most excellent AAR, reviewing the game and rules is much easier to understand.

-Terry

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

To be sure - HBs do not come on the board with anything more than 10-25 Low Naval (100-4000 feet) experience. Even NavB is poor, and it starts at 5000 feet. But after a couple of months of training in Low Nav to get them into the 55-70 range experience, level bombers on Low Nav CAN be devastating. But who can afford to devote that much time to training HBs for a secondary mission in 1942 or even early 1943?

Seems to me the HR, if any, should specify no HB naval bombing below 5000 feet [low naval]. In 1942-43 as you are experiencing, they can't hit much anyway and by 1944 it is quite reasonable to expect the Allies to have enough HB to train some in Naval Bombing below 10,000. Numerous light flak guns would have kept them from going below 5000.

Buuuuut, if you wish to play the game as designed and make your choices on Low Nav and NavB training, I agree that not having a HR on it is the way to go.

I'll take your word on the training timeline. I've never trained 4Es for naval anything. They're too valuable for strat purposes to do tactical airframes' jobs for them. I just looked at my array of all Allied 4e units and the naval training levels, both kinds, runs on average in the mid-to-high 20s. A few pilots are 40ish, but not many. OTOH, many Ground scores are in the high-60s.

Any Allied player who takes perfectly good B-17 units off-line for months at any time in the war to train in naval bombing is guilty of malpractice. In 1942? Hanging offense.

The HR is the grossest example of WITP hang-over in all the world of HRs. And there are some pretty squirrely ones in competition.

Ark and I set a HR for no low naval bombing by Army 4Es. Nothing below 10,000 feet. But I never used them for naval bombing at all. Like the Cow Man says they are too valuable and have much better use elsewhere. However, we do allow low naval bombing by Navy Liberators-which is what they were trained and designed for. Not more than one unit per base set on naval attack. This works well and does not get out of hand. Frankly, avengers set to 5,000 feet with bombs set rather than torpedoes are much more deadly than any other bomber in the army inventory. Mediums with strafing ability are a lot of fun but the losses can be high and the Allies don't really get many medium bombers. You get a quadjillion avengers and they pretty much have the same range as mediums and are much more effective.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

To be sure - HBs do not come on the board with anything more than 10-25 Low Naval (100-4000 feet) experience. Even NavB is poor, and it starts at 5000 feet. But after a couple of months of training in Low Nav to get them into the 55-70 range experience, level bombers on Low Nav CAN be devastating. But who can afford to devote that much time to training HBs for a secondary mission in 1942 or even early 1943?

Seems to me the HR, if any, should specify no HB naval bombing below 5000 feet [low naval]. In 1942-43 as you are experiencing, they can't hit much anyway and by 1944 it is quite reasonable to expect the Allies to have enough HB to train some in Naval Bombing below 10,000. Numerous light flak guns would have kept them from going below 5000.

Buuuuut, if you wish to play the game as designed and make your choices on Low Nav and NavB training, I agree that not having a HR on it is the way to go.

I'll take your word on the training timeline. I've never trained 4Es for naval anything. They're too valuable for strat purposes to do tactical airframes' jobs for them. I just looked at my array of all Allied 4e units and the naval training levels, both kinds, runs on average in the mid-to-high 20s. A few pilots are 40ish, but not many. OTOH, many Ground scores are in the high-60s.

Any Allied player who takes perfectly good B-17 units off-line for months at any time in the war to train in naval bombing is guilty of malpractice. In 1942? Hanging offense.

The HR is the grossest example of WITP hang-over in all the world of HRs. And there are some pretty squirrely ones in competition.

Ark and I set a HR for no low naval bombing by Army 4Es. Nothing below 10,000 feet. But I never used them for naval bombing at all. Like the Cow Man says they are too valuable and have much better use elsewhere. However, we do allow low naval bombing by Navy Liberators-which is what they were trained and designed for. Not more than one unit per base set on naval attack. This works well and does not get out of hand. Frankly, avengers set to 5,000 feet with bombs set rather than torpedoes are much more deadly than any other bomber in the army inventory. Mediums with strafing ability are a lot of fun but the losses can be high and the Allies don't really get many medium bombers. You get a quadjillion avengers and they pretty much have the same range as mediums and are much more effective.

Yes, I've been thoroughly amazed by the capability of Avengers (and TBs in general) armed with just bombs. In many cases, especially Kate vs. Val, I find the TBs to do better than the dive bombers.

[Richard III]

In more then a few past AAR`s over the years, ( maybe Nemo`s downfall among others ) I`ve seen USAAF 4E on port attack at 5,000 and lower hit multiple docked ships, including the valuable Aux. like AR`s, AS`s and AD`s, even a few CVL sometimes. This is in late `42 and early `43.

[Amoral]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Any Allied player who takes perfectly good B-17 units off-line for months at any time in the war to train in naval bombing is guilty of malpractice. In 1942? Hanging offense.

The HR is the grossest example of WITP hang-over in all the world of HRs. And there are some pretty squirrely ones in competition.

There's no need to take a squadron offline. Train up on old airframes and then upgrade.

I suggest you do it with at least 50 pilots, just so you can experience what it means to be able to establish a "your boats cannot be here" zone that extends out 20 hexes from any big airfield. It is so powerful it remains a strategic, instead of tactical asset.

Imagine raids by 100 mavis instead of 10, and mavis that damage your cap without taking much damage in return. At least you were able to cap trap his 4e, that's not a real option for the japanese player, until he gets much better interceptors.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

To be sure - HBs do not come on the board with anything more than 10-25 Low Naval (100-4000 feet) experience. Even NavB is poor, and it starts at 5000 feet. But after a couple of months of training in Low Nav to get them into the 55-70 range experience, level bombers on Low Nav CAN be devastating. But who can afford to devote that much time to training HBs for a secondary mission in 1942 or even early 1943?

Seems to me the HR, if any, should specify no HB naval bombing below 5000 feet [low naval]. In 1942-43 as you are experiencing, they can't hit much anyway and by 1944 it is quite reasonable to expect the Allies to have enough HB to train some in Naval Bombing below 10,000. Numerous light flak guns would have kept them from going below 5000.

Buuuuut, if you wish to play the game as designed and make your choices on Low Nav and NavB training, I agree that not having a HR on it is the way to go.

Training up a good mix of pilots to put in Mitchells and Marauders can be worth the time.