Discontinued?

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

About two weeks ago I asked Bob Cross if TOAW had been "retired" and he said he didn't have any information either way.
That little factoid combined w/ the absence of a dedicated developer to work on it leads me to believe it's been retired, discontinued,
abandoned.


So, in other words, on the basis of no information whatsoever, you've decided it has been abandoned, etc. I'm guessing that's just what the first posts mentioned were based upon as well.

Let's be clear: Unless the source claiming that TOAW has been abandoned was named Ralph Trickey (and actually was Ralph Trickey), any such claims are worthless.
... , 4.0 is never coming.

!! Larry, I'm really having a hard time believing you said that. Would you care to explain that one?
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
... , 4.0 is never coming.
!! Larry, I'm really having a hard time believing you said that. Would you care to explain that one?
I'm not a rocket scientist but I think I can "read between the lines" on the behavior of Matrix Games reguarding TOAW. I'm not
privy to any of the business decisions and actually have no proof whatever either way about 3.5 OR 4.0. It just seems to me that if
we're struggling to get 3.5 out the door and failing then it seems to me that 4.0 is a pipe dream. At the very least MG should have
released 3.5.0.52 as a beta for all our users to develop their scenario w/ as a first step. At the very least.

A check of the FTP site where Ralph posts the latest versions shows that the 3.5.0.56 was posted 9/3/2012 which is about a
YEAR ago. I like Ralph as a person and he's a really good programer but the latest posting a year ago is unacceptable.

I get emails from people who don't yet have the 3.5 version and they don't come out and ASK me to slip them a copy of 3.5 but you
can read between their lines and fortunately the forum is populated by some really good people and nobody has bribed me yet but
I can't eliminate that possibility from the future.

Something needs to be done.........we're loosing our community here. People are turning to other games. Not that that's a bad thing
but my love for TOAW is total and I don't want to see it get lost in the cracks and it just seems to me that being an activist isn't
totally a bad thing here.

I'm glad the project is in your hands, Bob, instead of mine, and I realize your hands might be at least somewhat tied and there's not
much that CAN be done probably. But I'd like to see some kind of statement from Erik or David or someone at MG who knows what's
going on.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound alarmist, but I am alarmed.
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
... , 4.0 is never coming.
!! Larry, I'm really having a hard time believing you said that. Would you care to explain that one?
I'm not a rocket scientist but I think I can "read between the lines" on the behavior of Matrix Games reguarding TOAW. I'm not
privy to any of the business decisions and actually have no proof whatever either way about 3.5 OR 4.0. It just seems to me that if
we're struggling to get 3.5 out the door and failing then it seems to me that 4.0 is a pipe dream. At the very least MG should have
released 3.5.0.52 as a beta for all our users to develop their scenario w/ as a first step. At the very least.

A check of the FTP site where Ralph posts the latest versions shows that the 3.5.0.56 was posted 9/3/2012 which is about a
YEAR ago. I like Ralph as a person and he's a really good programer but the latest posting a year ago is unacceptable.

I get emails from people who don't yet have the 3.5 version and they don't come out and ASK me to slip them a copy of 3.5 but you
can read between their lines and fortunately the forum is populated by some really good people and nobody has bribed me yet but
I can't eliminate that possibility from the future.

Something needs to be done.........we're loosing our community here. People are turning to other games. Not that that's a bad thing
but my love for TOAW is total and I don't want to see it get lost in the cracks and it just seems to me that being an activist isn't
totally a bad thing here.

I'm glad the project is in your hands, Bob, instead of mine, and I realize your hands might be at least somewhat tied and there's not
much that CAN be done probably. But I'd like to see some kind of statement from Erik or David or someone at MG who knows what's
going on.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound alarmist, but I am alarmed.

3.5 is up to Ralph. But 4.0 is not. And you know that. That's why that statement so surprised me.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
3.5 is up to Ralph. But 4.0 is not. And you know that. That's why that statement so surprised me.
Whoa. I did NOT know that. Or I forgot. 4.0 isn't up to Ralph. Okay, that changes things. Thanks for the info. I feel better
already.

So um........what's preventing 3.5 being released as a beta to the players of TOAW while we're waiting for 4.0?

EDIT: This is the predominate question people have been asking of me and I'm at a loss for words to tell them.
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Whoa. I did NOT know that. Or I forgot. 4.0 isn't up to Ralph. Okay, that changes things. Thanks for the info. I feel better
already.

You have access to the development board so I can only assume you forgot.
So um........what's preventing 3.5 being released as a beta to the players of TOAW while we're waiting for 4.0?

EDIT: This is the predominate question people have been asking of me and I'm at a loss for words to tell them.

I addressed that here:

tm.asp?m=3326549

It doesn't fix the basic problem with 3.4 - so it would only add bugs to the mix. And users would then be grumbling about all the new bugs. What purpose would it serve to release it if it doesn't fix 3.4's problems?
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
Shazman
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by Shazman »

I can't believe how anyone can be surprised there would be rumors of TOAW being discontinued. 3.5 has been stalled forever. It's forward progress depends on someone who seemingly doesn't want to push it forward. There has been absolutely no mention of any 4.anything in development. Nothing from Matrix except a blurb six months ago about 3.5. Nothing from anyone who might possibly know anything at all since then. If this were an army the moral would be abysmal. People need to be told things to keep moral up. Is that so hard to understand?
 
Perhaps every month or two someone could post a little something even if it's a no progress report. And I'm all for Larry's suggestion that the most stable build of 3.5 be released as a beta to the community. At least some bug hunting could get done.
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
It [ releasing 3.5 to the TOAW community ] doesn't fix the basic problem with 3.4 - so it would only add bugs to the mix. And users would then be grumbling about all the new bugs.
Yes, they certainly would. Is that a bad thing?
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
What purpose would it serve to release it if it doesn't fix 3.4's problems?
1. It would placate multiple players of TOAW that "something" is being done after all.
2. The TOAW gaming community could use 3.5's new capacities ( number of events, size of map, etc. ) to
design and or update their scenario's to the 3.5 version.
3. Lemme suggest something: There are other Matrix Games game projects that have an open developer diary,
and the newest beta(s)are released as they are built so that scenario designers can keep up w/ the newest
version and bugs are reported by whoever finds it. As a result the community is broughtinto the process
and they feel a part of the reason for the progress instead of just sitting on their hands and waiting
and waiting and waiting for about a year so far.
4. Releasing the most stable version of 3.5 to the TOAW gaming community as a beta would at least
placate me. For now.

EDIT: It just occurs to me that releasing 3.5 to the TOAW gaming community wouldn't get 3.5 fixed any faster ( no Ralph after all ) but
that just suggests that maybe 3.5 should be abandoned and work should commence on version 4.0.

About January of 2010 I migrated to WITE ( War in the East ) and played that for about two years
and then I migrated to WITP-AE ( War in the Pacific - Admirals Edition ) and played that for a
while and then about 6 months ago migrated back to TOAW and started playtesting TOAW again and I
have a report to report. I'm noticing a decided lack of traffic on the TOAW forum. Far fewer
AAR's and really old posts showing on the forum(s). People are leaving for other games. Something
must be done.
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fogger
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by fogger »

"nobody has bribed me yet but I can't eliminate that possibility from the future. " OK Larry how much? [;)][:D]

Seriously,
I do not know what Ralph’s problems are and I reality do hope he can get over them but for everybody on this forum to be held to ransom while he may or may not recover is a big ask. When I had my personal problems (loss of a child) it took more than 10 years to get over it.

From personal emails that I have had from other members it is my understanding that Bob & Larry could easily pick up from where Ralph left off if they had the code and get 3.5 out.

My question to Erik is why have MG not done that? Anybody who has study “Marketing” knows that one happy customer tells 10 to 15 other customers but 1 unhappy customer tells 25-30 other customers.

As for TOAW 4 is it under development?
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If you feel like doing some work, sit down and wait....... The feeling does go away.
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by Oberst_Klink »

ORIGINAL: fogger

"nobody has bribed me yet but I can't eliminate that possibility from the future. " OK Larry how much? [;)][:D]

Seriously,
I do not know what Ralph’s problems are and I reality do hope he can get over them but for everybody on this forum to be held to ransom while he may or may not recover is a big ask. When I had my personal problems (loss of a child) it took more than 10 years to get over it.

From personal emails that I have had from other members it is my understanding that Bob & Larry could easily pick up from where Ralph left off if they had the code and get 3.5 out.

My question to Erik is why have MG not done that? Anybody who has study “Marketing” knows that one happy customer tells 10 to 15 other customers but 1 unhappy customer tells 25-30 other customers.

As for TOAW 4 is it under development?
Need 3.5 beta to test Kharkov '43 proper and see how my ingenious .eqp tweaks work. Also need volunteers for some 5-10 turns of Kharkov '43 vs. Elmer or PBEM!

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RE: Discontinued?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
It [ releasing 3.5 to the TOAW community ] doesn't fix the basic problem with 3.4 - so it would only add bugs to the mix. And users would then be grumbling about all the new bugs.
Yes, they certainly would. Is that a bad thing?

It certainly could be a bad thing for the impression TOAW would then leave visitors to this forum. And I think Matrix might see it that way. But it's up to them.
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
What purpose would it serve to release it if it doesn't fix 3.4's problems?
2. The TOAW gaming community could use 3.5's new capacities ( number of events, size of map, etc. ) to
design and or update their scenario's to the 3.5 version.

That's true, but such designers have generally been given advance copies already, if they asked for it.
3. Lemme suggest something: There are other Matrix Games game projects that have an open developer diary,
and the newest beta(s)are released as they are built so that scenario designers can keep up w/ the newest
version and bugs are reported by whoever finds it. As a result the community is broughtinto the process
and they feel a part of the reason for the progress instead of just sitting on their hands and waiting
and waiting and waiting for about a year so far.

That's up to Matrix. For us, we have our NDAs (although, for this discussion, I'm glad they can't shoot us for violations).
EDIT: It just occurs to me that releasing 3.5 to the TOAW gaming community wouldn't get 3.5 fixed any faster ( no Ralph after all )

Right.
but that just suggests that maybe 3.5 should be abandoned ...

Really? Why does it suggest that, or even have anything to do with that?
...and work should commence on version 4.0.

Larry, there's another one of those statements that I find very hard to believe you posted. Perhaps I've entered an alternate universe.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Larry, there's another one of those statements that I find very hard to believe you posted. Perhaps I've entered an alternate universe.
I don't have the first clue why you find it very hard to believe I've posted that work should get started on 4.0. Are you surprised that I
said it outloud, in public, on the forum? Maybe I should follow up this post with a private email.
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Shazman

@golden delicious. Hey, sorry I got carried away man. Shouldn't fall for bait like that.

That's OK.
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Something needs to be done.........we're loosing our community here.

Meh. No development was done on TOAW between 2001 and 2006 and the community was pretty strong in the interim.

I'm not overly worried. Keep doing what you do in terms of discussing and playing the game and it'll carry on. Did you see my Fall Grau AAR? I'd be interested to know your thoughts- it's got me more fired up about TOAW than anything for the last couple of years.
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
No development was done on TOAW between 2001 and 2006 and the community was pretty strong in the interim.
That may be true. It's also irrelevant. Much has changed between then and now and the rules have changed.
WITE is a relatively new release and TOAW is having to compete w/ it for face-time. And WITP-AE is really active.
TOAW isn't nearly as active as WITP-AE in terms of posted traffic, AAR's etc.
ORIGINAL: golden delicious
I'm not overly worried. Keep doing what you do in terms of discussing and playing the game and it'll carry on.
Well, okay....but I really hope you're right.
ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Did you see my Fall Grau AAR? I'd be interested to know your thoughts- it's got me more fired up about TOAW than anything for the last couple of years.
Since you brought it up just now I thought I'd best take a look and I like your AAR although there's not nearly enough pictures. You
guys did something bold and expanded the map somehow and made a different game out of it. Good for you. I like that. I feel the
same way about "D-Day to the Elbe" by Steve Sill. You may want to take a look at it. It's stunning.
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by jmlima »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

...
3.5 is up to Ralph. But 4.0 is not. And you know that. That's why that statement so surprised me.

Its being developed by the same crew doing Combined Arms! [:D]

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

People take these games far too seriously, there's plenty of other games out there. Enjoy them.
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by USXpat »

I've got 3 squads, an MMG, a horse team, and an armored car stubbornly defending a fortified hex demanding that The Operational Art of War lives forever. In the words of Patrick Henry, "Give us MORE Operational Art of War or Give us Death, or at least a slice of chocolate cake."
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by Oberst_Klink »

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

...
3.5 is up to Ralph. But 4.0 is not. And you know that. That's why that statement so surprised me.

Its being developed by the same crew doing Combined Arms! [:D]

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

People take these games far too seriously, there's plenty of other games out there. Enjoy them.
You'll be pleased to know, oh creator of the original Kharkov '43, that I am keeping your baby alive and restarted working on it, thanks to Onkel Larty, who triggered it. Aggressive Comrade Elmer managed even to win against Elmer von Manstein; have to tweak more objective paths for the Germans though.

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RE: Discontinued?

Post by fogger »

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

...
3.5 is up to Ralph. But 4.0 is not. And you know that. That's why that statement so surprised me.

Its being developed by the same crew doing Combined Arms! [:D]

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

People take these games far too seriously, there's plenty of other games out there. Enjoy them.

I have never looked at Combined Arms so I have no idea what it is like. Yes there are plenty of other games out there BUT none are as good as TOAW. I have purchased several games since I purchased TOAW Vol 1 back in ??? but I have always come back to TOAW and as I have stated before TOAW 4 will more than likely be the last game that I will purchase unless there is a TOAW 5. But at the rate things are going I think I will be dead by then. (I have already had one heart operation.)

Anyway if they (who is they) are working on TOAW 4 then
Question 1 - how long have they been working on it?
Question 2 - In any project mangement timetable there are set of dates by when one hopes to have achieved set milestones. One of the milestones is the proposed release date. Has this been set and are they on target to achieve it?
Question 3 - If it has been set, what is it?

Yes it is only a game and not to be taken seriously, but if you are going to waste your time you might as well enjoy the best, which in MHO is TOAW.
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Everyone who is as antsy as I was before I saw this should take a look at this subforum in the 'Coming Soon' category :

tt.asp?forumid=16
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RE: Discontinued?

Post by Telumar »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Everyone who is as antsy as I was before I saw this should take a look at this subforum in the 'Coming Soon' category :

tt.asp?forumid=16


Good old home of the tumble weed.[:D]
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