War in the East Update 1.07.08

[Denniss]

Is there no penalty to morale gains if still sitting on train ?
I wouldn't call it rest & recover.

[Michael T]

I can't recall a single player even trying to defend this meteoric rise of Soviet morale to 50. Why won't anyone listen?

[carlkay58]

The real problem is not the Soviet NM but rather the fact that the standard formula for gaining morale is based on 50 - which is higher than the Soviet morale from June 41 thru November 42 - thus effectively raising the Soviet NM to 50. This could be an easy fix by replacing the 50 with 50 or NM whichever is lower. This may not be an easy fix however.

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Is there no penalty to morale gains if still sitting on train ?
I wouldn't call it rest & recover.

I'd take sitting on a train 100+ miles behind the lines over sitting in a foxhole at the front any day. My morale would be sky high. [:D] j/k

[Michael T]

Until the train started headed to the West ...... [:D]

[Denniss]

Or get strafed by a/c looking for a target of opportunity.

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The real problem is not the Soviet NM but rather the fact that the standard formula for gaining morale is based on 50 - which is higher than the Soviet morale from June 41 thru November 42 - thus effectively raising the Soviet NM to 50. This could be an easy fix by replacing the 50 with 50 or NM whichever is lower. This may not be an easy fix however.

It's also in the context of the Russian '41 runaway and the oversize army this leaves them. In this situation the Russian can happily rotate units to and from front lines that his historical counterpart would be less able to do. The Germans will generally be under too much pressure to rotate units in sufficient quantity to make much difference. This is the context that makes the Russian morale effectively 50.

2 by 3 is offering sudden death options (for a tenner) to force the Russians to fight forward. This is is a retrograde step away from simulation and if it isn't gamed and cheesed to death it certainly has nothing to do with history. That they have taken this path instead of exploring all the other mechanisms already in game that could have been used to make the Russians suffer serious consequences for abandoning the borders, is a great disappointment to me. NM penalties have already been put forward, increased leader executions, particularly at Front and STAVKA level could cripple command structure while enabling the war to continue. A bit of thought, imagination and testing could come up with something.

[mktours]

Does that cause problems to my current doing campaign, which is being done for more than a month now, if i install this patch in the middle?
And does it cause problems when one is doing a pbem game if either side or both upgrade to newer patch?

[Templer_12]

Tomorrow I need to install my new PC.
So, V1.07.08– May 16, 2013 is comprehensive? [&:]

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: Templer

Tomorrow I need to install my new PC.
So, V1.07.08– May 16, 2013 is comprehensive? [&:]

The latest official is comprehensive.

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: mktours

Does that cause problems to my current doing campaign, which is being done for more than a month now, if i install this patch in the middle?
And does it cause problems when one is doing a pbem game if either side or both upgrade to newer patch?

If you upgrade, you should upgrade at the same time as your opponent. It's not a good idea to upgrade and then send your turn to someone using an older version. You can upgrade mid game and many players always upgrade as changes are made. You won't get data changes, but code changes will impact your existing games. Of course changes can impact balance mid-game, so you have to decide if you are ok with that, but I generally recommend upgrading and would do so myself.

[mktours]

thanks, Joel. you are very kind to give this info! it is very helpful.

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

ORIGINAL: mktours

Does that cause problems to my current doing campaign, which is being done for more than a month now, if i install this patch in the middle?
And does it cause problems when one is doing a pbem game if either side or both upgrade to newer patch?

If you upgrade, you should upgrade at the same time as your opponent. It's not a good idea to upgrade and then send your turn to someone using an older version. You can upgrade mid game and many players always upgrade as changes are made. You won't get data changes, but code changes will impact your existing games. Of course changes can impact balance mid-game, so you have to decide if you are ok with that, but I generally recommend upgrading and would do so myself.

[SigUp]

I am wondering whether this change:

1. Formula Change - Greatly reduced the chance that a unit below its national morale will receive the die(10% of national morale) increase in morale.

has any effect, aside from making it harder for German units to get their morale up. Because as far as I can see it, units under 50 morale (Soviets, Rumanians and Hungarians) shoot up to 50 in an instant. My Germans, however, seem to take endlessly. On turn 38 I put 161st Infantry Division with 68 morale on refit in Orsha (far more than 10 hexes from the front). Now it's turn 42 and it still is on 68. On turn 39 I sent 292nd with 65 morale back to Poland on refit. A turn later 137th with 65 morale and 263rd with 68 morale. These three divisions also haven't gained a single morale point. So, up till now out of four divisions below the NM of 70, not a single one has gained a morale point. Now, it could be that I'm simply unlucky. I have read some people say, that in the long run the morale gain changes benefits the German side (after blizzard, then 43 onwards), but if the gain is really so slow (and not I am just getting bad dice roll after bad dice roll), then this entire business of the morale gain correction of 1.07.08 was somehow senseless from a German-only point of view.

[smokindave34]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

I am wondering whether this change:

1. Formula Change - Greatly reduced the chance that a unit below its national morale will receive the die(10% of national morale) increase in morale.

has any effect, aside from making it harder for German units to get their morale up. Because as far as I can see it, units under 50 morale (Soviets, Rumanians and Hungarians) shoot up to 50 in an instant. My Germans, however, seem to take endlessly. On turn 38 I put 161st Infantry Division with 68 morale on refit in Orsha (far more than 10 hexes from the front). Now it's turn 42 and it still is on 68. On turn 39 I sent 292nd with 65 morale back to Poland on refit. A turn later 137th with 65 morale and 263rd with 68 morale. These three divisions also haven't gained a single morale point. So, up till now out of four divisions below the NM of 70, not a single one has gained a morale point. Now, it could be that I'm simply unlucky. I have read some people say, that in the long run the morale gain changes benefits the German side (after blizzard, then 43 onwards), but if the gain is really so slow (and not I am just getting bad dice roll after bad dice roll), then this entire business of the morale gain correction of 1.07.08 was somehow senseless from a German-only point of view.

I agree SigUp. I have seen the same thing - the morale change has a dramatic effect on units below a morale level of 50. This is a huge advantage for the Soviets - they have dozens of units below a morale of 50 that get this immediate benefit to their morale and CV whereas the Germans have none. My units destroyed during the blizzard have come back with a morale in the high 50's and have been sitting for turn after turn stuck at the same morale level....I'm not sure how any of this can been seen as a help for the axis late in the war. The only effect of this change has been to allow all the Soviet units below a morale of 50 to get >50 in a few turns and slow the axis in '41.

[Disgruntled Veteran]

Here's a helpful tip that will help you a little bit as axis.

In commanders tab go to each allied country and put all frozen units on refit especially Romania-Hungary starting T1. That way as these divisions unlock they will be in mid fifty morale and have 4-5CV's. Hell, even the Italian infantry can have around 2-3 CV. Its a slight help at least.

[smokindave34]

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

Here's a helpful tip that will help you a little bit as axis.

In commanders tab go to each allied country and put all frozen units on refit especially Romania-Hungary starting T1. That way as these divisions unlock they will be in mid fifty morale and have 4-5CV's. Hell, even the Italian infantry can have around 2-3 CV. Its a slight help at least.

Thanks DV - I have been doing that and I agree it helps. I was happy to see my Rumanian reinforcements start with a CV of 4 until I realized that as easy as it was for me to get a Rumanian division to a CV of 4 my Soviet opponents could do the same for dozens of their Soviet divisions just as easily.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: smokindave34
My units destroyed during the blizzard have come back with a morale in the high 50's and have been sitting for turn after turn stuck at the same morale level....

Well, then it is not me getting bad dice rolls. Guess I can give up my plan to rotate units out of the frontline to recover morale. Just pull them out to the next railhead and have them up their TOE, then send them back to the front.

As for Rumanians and Hungarians, true. I have a 56 morale Rumanian infantry division sitting in Bukarest and another one at 54, a couple at 52 and then more at 50. With the Hungarians it is similar. [X(]

While I do think that in the past the Rumanians and Hungarians were too weak, now they are kind of too strong. A 2 CV, in some rare cases 3 CV Rumanian / Hungarian division is pretty good. But now, the Rumanians at least, are all at 3 to 4 CV with some cases being even at 5.

[smokindave34]

I'd actually be O.K. with the new morale rule that makes the Soviets much stronger (and able to counterattack) if we could scale back the ridiculous blizzard rules. Gettting ZOC locked turn after turn by tank brigades with no ability to counterattack because my CV's are in the dirt is very frustrating.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

I'd actually be O.K. with the new morale rule that makes the Soviets much stronger (and able to counterattack) if we could scale back the ridiculous blizzard rules. Gettting ZOC locked turn after turn by tank brigades with no ability to counterattack because my CV's are in the dirt is very frustrating.

I'm in the same camp. Although units with 50 morale or above never routing unless they have no retreat space is certainly a little bit problematic for the German. But all in all I think it is good that the Soviets get a certain boost increasing their ability to counterattack and also inflicting slightly more losses on the Germans. Therefore I think what needs to be reduced are the blizzard morale penalties for the German, as well as the CV punishment. Upping Soviet CV while reducing German CV combined with the morale losses basically force the German to run, and to run the German has to do better than historical. So, what I would like would be a fix for the ridiculous aerial supply (perhaps forbidding bombers to resupply, or make the wear and tear on them prohibitively high, so that people would only use them as suppliers when there is no alternative), and a fix for the blizzard. But both these changes are most likely too complex for 2by3 to consider, so all in all a morale fix would be "simpler".

[Disgruntled Veteran]

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

I'd actually be O.K. with the new morale rule that makes the Soviets much stronger (and able to counterattack) if we could scale back the ridiculous blizzard rules. Gettting ZOC locked turn after turn by tank brigades with no ability to counterattack because my CV's are in the dirt is very frustrating.

I agree and have mentioned this before.