March direction and Enemy info

[Yaab]

I have a Japanese unit moving from Sinyang to the hex east of Sinyang. The hex is empty, but the LCU's screen shows a red "Enemy" message next to the march direction. Should I be given this warning since the enemy is still undetected and not shown on the map?

The screenshot is from the RHS mod. The word "Enemy" is blurred, yet visible.

[Lokasenna]

My guess is that there is an undetected enemy unit there, or else they control the hex side in some other way. Can you air Recon the hex to verify?

[Yaab]

Not really. It is December 7, non-historical start. I know there is a Chinese unit there ( I switched sides), but why does the game shows the "Enemy" messages if the unit has not been detected at start?

[dcpollay]

I thought any units in adjacent hexes were automatically detected, although not necessarily identified in detail. My other thought was that, because the globe is round and the hex map is flat, there is distortion of the directions, and "East" does not necessarily mean "the right side of the screen." This is most extreme in India, where the right side represents pretty much "North." Although it does not seem to be born out by the directional arrow, I would watch to see if you are in fact marching across the river, to where there is an identified enemy unit.

One other possibility is that for some reason you do not control the right hexside, and are therefore marching around that hexside rather than in a straight line. I noticed you are marching 92 miles, which is two hexes. How far did you intend to go?

[Lomri]

Absolutely just an undetected unit you are marching towards. In some ways this could be considered a breach of FoW but my guess is next turn you'd see the LCU symbol appear anyhow. Hitting "w" (muscle memory, could be wrong) to see hex side control will show that hex with enemy control. If you hit this button and look around you may find other hexes you have low detection levels on that don't show an LCU icon but do show up as under enemy control. This isn't a magical spy button though since it only works with some small level of detection. (Signal noise, proximity, whatever).

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: Colonel Mustard

I thought any units in adjacent hexes were automatically detected, although not necessarily identified in detail. My other thought was that, because the globe is round and the hex map is flat, there is distortion of the directions, and "East" does not necessarily mean "the right side of the screen." This is most extreme in India, where the right side represents pretty much "North." Although it does not seem to be born out by the directional arrow, I would watch to see if you are in fact marching across the river, to where there is an identified enemy unit.

One other possibility is that for some reason you do not control the right hexside, and are therefore marching around that hexside rather than in a straight line. I noticed you are marching 92 miles, which is two hexes. How far did you intend to go?

I didn't issue the order to move. It is December 7, non-historical start and the move is scripted by the scenario designer. I just thought the "Enemy" message was weird since no enemy unit had been detected in the adjacent hex yet.

[GreyJoy]

detection of adjacent hexes IS NOT automatic. Very often you do not spot immediately the enemy unit simply by sitting on the nearby hex

[DHRedge]

A better question is why is there a base west of Hankow, and a base SW of Yenan?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: DHRedge

A better question is why is there a base west of Hankow, and a base SW of Yenan?

Because he's playing a mod.

[DHRedge]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: DHRedge

A better question is why is there a base west of Hankow, and a base SW of Yenan?

Because he's playing a mod.

That was me being a bit to cute by half, saying it could be the mod causing it
Why is there an error on that unit, "Because he's playing a mod"

The starting position of the image looks like original start position of scenario 1, that unit moving East, in original start has an enemy at the location he is moving into, in his mod there is not an enemy in that hex.

If you look at the image, excluding the two extra bases and a guy North of Peiping, it looks much like the original starting position of scenario 1. Is it possible that the unit not in the hex was removed in editor, but done so in a way that still indicates its position as being at that location in the movement of the other unit?

[dcpollay]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

detection of adjacent hexes IS NOT automatic. Very often you do not spot immediately the enemy unit simply by sitting on the nearby hex

Interesting....I learned something new.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

detection of adjacent hexes IS NOT automatic. Very often you do not spot immediately the enemy unit simply by sitting on the nearby hex

Interesting....I learned something new.

Thread resurrection.

I have also noticed a few times in China, that my units do not detect adjacent Jap units. Is there any explanation to this phenomenon? I know the manual is old, but it clearly says that detection of adjacent enemy units is automatic. In one AI game in 2016, Jap AI have leisurely walked an LCU past Chinese-held Kwangchowan without detection and materialised in Nanning, with the Nanning BF and HQ also having failed to detect the adjacent Jap unit.

Second question:
While I detect enemy units almost all the time, there are MANY instances of enemy movement pointers not showing on detected units/ stack of units. I have had several lopsided losses due to this fact, mostly in China and Luzon. I see that an adjacent Jap stack is static, I move my units in Reserve/Move mode to a different hex, and WHAM, the Jap stack teleports to my hex and badly mauls my units who are still moving. It seems you probably have to have a higher detection level of adjacent stacks, but alas, the manual is silent again on this topic. The situtaion in China is doubly troubling, because in stock, the Chinese do not have any recon air units and airfields are mostly level 1 at start.

I would be gratfeul for any pointers to dev/michealm quotes on both topics. Thanks.

EDIT: this non-detection thing makes me use picket lines in China (mostly corps divided into ABC), which weakens my MLR defence.

[Chris21wen]

Detection routines come into play during the resolution phase. I don't know exactly what phase but that's irrelevant. What is, is it ain't happen yet.

Run the game on a turn. I think you'll find the unit is now spotted. DL will be very low lacking any kind of detail except it's there.

From 10.1.1.3. DL of a ground unit
If DL=0 set DL=1 whenever in a hex adjacent to an enemy gound unit. That does not mean it increase 1 point every turn. It does yo-yo every turn as 1 is sutracted at the end of every turn.

Don't think there's anything wrong here and detection does work automatically.

[Chris21wen]

With irrelevant I was referring to the first turn. I should clarify, the sequence of play does matter in this respect and I think it woks like this.

You plan
DL worked out in res phase
your move in res phase

That way it is possible for units to move into a new hex not know if or what a unit is doing immediately in a hex adjacent to it's new one. If it was this way round then you would know immediately.

You plan
your move
DL worked out

[BBfanboy]

And there it is: you need to adapt your wok for sound gathering to detect the enemy so far away. This is easier for the Japanese to do ...

[RangerJoe]

And there it is: you need to adapt your wok for sound gathering to detect the enemy so far away. This is easier for the Japanese to do ...

I supposed a wok could be used as a sound detector.

[Yaab]

OK, I checked my starting Chinese units in places where they failed to detect adjacent troops/movement pointers.

Some of those units (mostly BF, HQ) had acceptable exp 40-50, though infantry (combat LCU) exp was 30-35 exp. If only combat LCUs detect enemies, then low exp may be the culprit.

The units have leaders with OK Land skill (45-60 points), so I don't think their skills are lacking.

I have also checked the terrain, but enemy approach hexes in southern China are Clear terrain.

[Yaab]

It seems the manual contradicts itself on detection

Page 196 Land Combat
Note: A unit marching into an enemy occupied hex will have its Detection Level raised to a point where the enemy can automatically spot it.

Page 219 Detection of Ground Units
If DL=0, set DL=1 Whenever in a hex adjacent to an enemy ground unit.

Basically, page 196 implies that units in adjacent hexes may not be automatically detected as per page 219, and 100% automatic detection always happens in DESTINATION hexes, and not in ADJACENT hexes.

[Chris21wen]

It seems the manual contradicts itself on detection

Page 196 Land Combat
Note: A unit marching into an enemy occupied hex will have its Detection Level raised to a point where the enemy can automatically spot it.

Page 219 Detection of Ground Units
If DL=0, set DL=1 Whenever in a hex adjacent to an enemy ground unit.

Basically, page 196 implies that units in adjacent hexes may not be automatically detected as per page 219, and 100% automatic detection always happens in DESTINATION hexes, and not in ADJACENT hexes.

I suppose it could but you need to read the paragraphs above on page 196. I read this as referring to targeting of weapons. Weapons can't fire until they acquire a target, a target being a squad, weapon etc.

The other is referring to a unit in an adjacent hex.

[Yaab]

This happened to me in early China.

My Chinese units were sitting in Nanning. The Nanning hex, as any other hex on the map (minus the map border hexes), has six adjacent hexes to it. A Jap bde unit walks into a hex which is adjacent to Nanning. As per the rule on p. 219, this should raise their detection level (DL) to 1, since my Nanning units ar now next to the enemy. DL of 1 is enough for the unit to be spotted and put on the map.

However, my Nanning units did not spot the Jap bde in th adjacent hex. A few turns later, to my astonishment, this invisible Jap bde suddenly materialises in the Nanning hex itself and almost captures Nanning.

The wording of the rule on p.219 makes you believe enemy units will ALWAYS be detected in adjacent hexes. Apparently, there is some undocumented check involved in this detection.

So far I have encountered two failed detections (both in early China) and several instances of lacking movement pointers in enemy units in adjacent hexes (with disastrous consequences in early China and Luzon, where my LCUs in Move modes were soundly beaten by enemy LCUs suddenly arriving in my hex).

Also p. 219 does not list radio transmissions and DL level of LCUs. A radio transmisson about an enemy LCU in a non-base/base hex add a DL of 1 to such units and put such units on the map for a turn.