19th Jan 1943

[Cavalry Corp]

Interesting balanced surface combat - guess the outcome


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Day Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 98,130, Range 17,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo,
BB Haruna,
CA Kako,
CL Kinu
DD Shikinami,
DD Kikuzuki,
DD Yunagi,
DD Yugao,
DD Kyukaze,
DD Tachekaze,
DD Tagonami,
DD Suruyame,

Allied Ships
BB Maryland,
BB Colorado,
CA Indianapolis,
CL Detroit,
CL Concord,
DD Nicholas,
DD Hughes
DD Walke
DD Morris
DD Craven,
DD McCall,
DD Maury,
DD Dunlap,
DD Shaw,



Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 20,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 23,000 yards
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 17,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 17,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Maryland at 17,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CA Indianapolis at 17,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Concord at 17,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages CL Concord at 17,000 yards
DD Tachekaze engages BB Maryland at 17,000 yards
BB Maryland engages DD Kyukaze at 17,000 yards
BB Colorado engages DD Yugao at 17,000 yards
BB Colorado engages DD Yunagi at 17,000 yards
BB Colorado engages DD Kikuzuki at 17,000 yards
DD Shaw engages DD Shikinami at 17,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Nicholas at 17,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Maryland at 12,000 yards
BB Maryland engages BB Kongo at 12,000 yards
CA Kako engages CA Indianapolis at 12,000 yards
CL Concord engages CA Kako at 12,000 yards
CA Kako engages CL Detroit at 12,000 yards
DD Shaw engages DD Tagonami at 12,000 yards
DD Tachekaze engages DD Shaw at 12,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Maury at 12,000 yards
DD Yugao engages DD Nicholas at 12,000 yards
DD Yunagi engages DD Morris at 12,000 yards
DD Tagonami engages DD Walke at 12,000 yards
DD Tagonami engages DD Hughes at 12,000 yards
DD Tagonami engages DD Nicholas at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Colorado at 8,000 yards
BB Maryland engages BB Kongo at 8,000 yards
CA Indianapolis engages CA Kako at 8,000 yards
CL Concord engages CA Kako at 8,000 yards
CL Detroit engages DD Suruyame at 8,000 yards
DD Nicholas engages DD Tagonami at 8,000 yards
DD Yunagi engages DD Dunlap at 8,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Walke at 8,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Suruyame at 8,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Craven at 8,000 yards
DD Morris engages DD Suruyame at 8,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Nicholas at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
BB Colorado engages BB Haruna at 6,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Colorado at 6,000 yards
CL Detroit engages CA Kako at 6,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CL Detroit at 6,000 yards
CA Kako engages CL Detroit at 6,000 yards
DD Walke engages DD Tagonami at 6,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Dunlap at 6,000 yards
DD Yugao engages DD Morris at 6,000 yards
DD Yunagi engages DD Shaw at 6,000 yards
DD Tachekaze engages DD Morris at 6,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Maury at 6,000 yards
DD Tagonami engages DD Hughes at 6,000 yards
DD Yugao engages DD Nicholas at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
BB Maryland engages BB Kongo at 7,000 yards
CA Kako engages CL Concord at 7,000 yards
CA Kako engages CL Concord at 7,000 yards
CA Kako engages CL Detroit at 7,000 yards
DD Shaw engages DD Tagonami at 7,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Tachekaze at 7,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Nicholas at 7,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Kikuzuki at 7,000 yards
DD Yunagi engages DD Dunlap at 7,000 yards
DD Morris engages DD Kikuzuki at 7,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Dunlap at 7,000 yards
DD Yunagi engages DD Hughes at 7,000 yards
DD Nicholas engages DD Kyukaze at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Colorado at 9,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Maryland at 9,000 yards
CA Indianapolis engages CA Kako at 9,000 yards
CA Kako engages CL Concord at 9,000 yards
CA Kako engages CL Detroit at 9,000 yards
DD Shaw engages DD Shikinami at 9,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD Dunlap at 9,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD Maury at 9,000 yards
DD Nicholas engages DD Yugao at 9,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Yugao at 9,000 yards
DD Kikuzuki engages DD Morris at 9,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Craven at 9,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Yunagi at 9,000 yards
DD Nicholas engages DD Shikinami at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Colorado at 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Maryland at 11,000 yards
CA Indianapolis engages CA Kako at 11,000 yards
CL Concord engages CA Kako at 11,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD Maury at 11,000 yards
DD Morris engages DD Tagonami at 11,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Kyukaze at 11,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Craven at 11,000 yards
DD Yunagi engages DD McCall at 11,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Yunagi at 11,000 yards
DD Kikuzuki engages DD Morris at 11,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Craven at 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Colorado at 11,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Maryland at 11,000 yards
CA Kako engages CA Indianapolis at 11,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Suruyame at 11,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Tagonami at 11,000 yards
DD Tachekaze engages DD McCall at 11,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Yugao at 11,000 yards
DD Tachekaze engages DD Craven at 11,000 yards
DD Kikuzuki engages DD Morris at 11,000 yards
DD Walke engages DD Tagonami at 11,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Tachekaze at 11,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD Nicholas at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
BB Colorado engages BB Kongo at 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Maryland at 8,000 yards
CA Indianapolis engages CL Kinu at 8,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CL Concord at 8,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CL Detroit at 8,000 yards
DD Morris engages DD Tagonami at 8,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Dunlap at 8,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Hughes at 8,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD McCall at 8,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Yunagi at 8,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Kikuzuki at 8,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Walke at 8,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Tachekaze at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
BB Colorado engages BB Haruna at 10,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Maryland at 10,000 yards
CA Kako engages CL Detroit at 10,000 yards
CL Concord engages CL Kinu at 10,000 yards
CA Kako engages CL Detroit at 10,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD Shaw at 10,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Dunlap at 10,000 yards
DD Maury engages DD Kikuzuki at 10,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD McCall at 10,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Shikinami at 10,000 yards
DD Kikuzuki engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
DD Nicholas engages DD Kikuzuki at 10,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Maryland at 10,000 yards
BB Maryland engages BB Kongo at 10,000 yards
CL Concord engages CA Kako at 10,000 yards
CA Kako engages CL Concord at 10,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Suruyame at 10,000 yards
DD Walke engages DD Tagonami at 10,000 yards
DD Tachekaze engages DD Dunlap at 10,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Maury at 10,000 yards
DD Yugao engages DD Morris at 10,000 yards
DD Yunagi engages DD Maury at 10,000 yards
DD Morris engages DD Tachekaze at 10,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Dunlap at 10,000 yards
DD Yunagi engages DD Hughes at 10,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD Nicholas at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Maryland at 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Colorado at 8,000 yards
CL Concord engages CA Kako at 8,000 yards
CL Detroit engages CL Kinu at 8,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD Dunlap at 8,000 yards
DD Shaw engages DD Kikuzuki at 8,000 yards
DD Tachekaze engages DD Dunlap at 8,000 yards
DD Maury engages DD Kyukaze at 8,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Kikuzuki at 8,000 yards
DD Yunagi engages DD Craven at 8,000 yards
DD Kikuzuki engages DD Dunlap at 8,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Walke at 8,000 yards
DD Hughes engages DD Suruyame at 8,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Nicholas at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Colorado at 9,000 yards
BB Maryland engages BB Kongo at 9,000 yards
CL Concord engages CA Kako at 9,000 yards
CL Concord engages CA Kako at 9,000 yards
CL Detroit engages CA Kako at 9,000 yards
DD Tachekaze engages DD Shaw at 9,000 yards
DD Tagonami engages DD Dunlap at 9,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Morris at 9,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD McCall at 9,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Kyukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Kikuzuki at 9,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Hughes at 9,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD Nicholas at 9,000 yards
BB Colorado engages BB Haruna at 9,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CA Indianapolis at 9,000 yards
CL Concord engages CA Kako at 9,000 yards
DD Walke engages DD Suruyame at 9,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Shaw at 9,000 yards
DD Shaw engages DD Tachekaze at 9,000 yards
DD Shaw engages DD Kyukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Yugao engages DD Maury at 9,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Yunagi at 9,000 yards
DD Kikuzuki engages DD Maury at 9,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Craven at 9,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Colorado at 9,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Maryland at 9,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CA Indianapolis at 9,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CL Concord at 9,000 yards
DD Suruyame engages DD Walke at 9,000 yards
DD Tagonami engages DD Dunlap at 9,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Kyukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Maury engages DD Kyukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Yugao engages DD Craven at 9,000 yards
DD Tachekaze engages DD Craven at 9,000 yards
DD Kikuzuki engages DD Craven at 9,000 yards
DD Tagonami engages DD Walke at 9,000 yards
DD Kikuzuki engages DD Hughes at 9,000 yards
DD Yunagi engages DD Nicholas at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 14,000 yards
BB Colorado engages BB Haruna at 14,000 yards
BB Maryland engages BB Kongo at 14,000 yards
CL Kinu engages CA Indianapolis at 14,000 yards
CL Detroit engages CL Kinu at 14,000 yards
DD McCall engages DD Suruyame at 14,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Tagonami at 14,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Dunlap at 14,000 yards
DD Kyukaze engages DD Maury at 14,000 yards
DD Nicholas engages DD Yugao at 14,000 yards
DD Yugao engages DD Craven at 14,000 yards
DD Nicholas engages DD Kikuzuki at 14,000 yards
Hashisaka, T. orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range increases to 19,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Colorado at 19,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Maryland at 19,000 yards
CA Kako engages CA Indianapolis at 19,000 yards
CL Detroit engages CL Kinu at 19,000 yards
DD Tagonami engages DD Shaw at 19,000 yards
DD Tagonami engages DD Dunlap at 19,000 yards
CL Concord engages DD Kyukaze at 19,000 yards
Range increases to 24,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Colorado at 24,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Maryland at 24,000 yards
CL Detroit engages CA Kako at 24,000 yards
CL Concord engages CL Kinu at 24,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Maury at 24,000 yards
CL Concord engages DD Shikinami at 24,000 yards
Range increases to 29,000 yards
Task forces break off...

[Lokasenna]

Well the BBs appear to all still be afloat at the end... I'm going to guess on fire, heavy damage for both US BBs, though.

[obvert]

I'd say the IJN CA and the faster TF speed give the IJ an edge even against Allied radar shooting, especially as this is a daylight battle.

I'd say the US BBs ate a few TT and got mauled after, but are still afloat, while the two US CL were left in sinking condition and 2-3 DDs from each side were sunk. [:)]

[LoBaron]

IMHO the setup is not balanced at all.

Without looking at this specific combat itself, with about equally skilled commanders, that setup would probably result in a decisive IJN victory 5 out of 6 times.

The USN TF consists of 14 ships, which is already significantly over the optimal threshold. In addition both TFs have a suboptimal balance in main combatants (speed, mvr, gun ranges and calibers vary highly), but the USN is severely handicapped by the 2 old 21kt BBs. I would never combine them with fast CAs or CLs when expecting a surface battle, this only deteriorates the latter performance. TF screen looks about equal with a slight edge for the USN.

My guess is both USN BBs crippled/sunk or out of action for a long time, Indianapolis with only medium damage except if she got a torp late in the battle. The CLs might have fared better. On the Japanese side I assume light damage to the Kongos, if at all, probably medium damage to Kako and light damage to Kinu. Also, no idea about the DDs.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

IMHO the setup is not balanced at all.

Without looking at this specific combat itself, with about equally skilled commanders, that setup would probably result in a decisive IJN victory 5 out of 6 times.

The USN TF consists of 14 ships, which is already significantly over the optimal threshold. In addition both TFs have a suboptimal balance in main combatants (speed, mvr, gun ranges and calibers vary highly), but the USN is severely handicapped by the 2 old 21kt BBs. I would never combine them with fast CAs or CLs when expecting a surface battle, this only deteriorates the latter performance. TF screen looks about equal with a slight edge for the USN.

My guess is both USN BBs crippled/sunk or out of action for a long time, Indianapolis with only medium damage except if she got a torp late in the battle. The CLs might have fared better. On the Japanese side I assume light damage to the Kongos, if at all, probably medium damage to Kako and light damage to Kinu. Also, no idea about the DDs.

I concur. Unless some of those early shots from the USN BBs penetrated the belt or deck of the Kongos, I'd say their damage is less than 30 in all areas. It really looks like the USN got the short end of the stick, as they should with this encounter IMO. The Kongos are very capable against older BBs.

[Chickenboy]

The BBs spent most of their time engaging one another, with the Japanese getting off the first several substantive rounds. Colorado didn't start returning fire until midway through the fight, presumably after being hit. I agree that their speed and poor main battery performance likely hampered their performance. I'd say they ate a couple tin fish too-since the fight spent some time in the <10,000 yard range.

I'd say that the USN CA got torped and shot full of holes too. USN CAs are vulnerable in such a tethered fight. Don't know about the Cl or the DDs on either side.

So, yeah: 2-3 DDs heavily damaged / sunk on either side, with the USN heavies getting the worst.

[Thayne]

I notice that the Japanese ended the battle .

Hashisaka, T. orders Japanese TF to disengage

Also, due to the missing comma after the name, more Allied ships remained undamaged.

BB Kongo,
BB Haruna,
CA Kako,
CL Kinu
DD Shikinami,
DD Kikuzuki,
DD Yunagi,
DD Yugao,
DD Kyukaze,
DD Tachekaze,
DD Tagonami,
DD Suruyame,

Allied Ships
BB Maryland,
BB Colorado,
CA Indianapolis,
CL Detroit,
CL Concord,
DD Nicholas,
DD Hughes
DD Walke
DD Morris
DD Craven,
DD McCall,
DD Maury,
DD Dunlap,
DD Shaw,

For what it is worth.

[LoBaron]

Interesting observations but I see it a bit different:

Disengaging is as much dependent on agg value and ammunition status as on damage to ships. Hashisaka, T. has 63agg, so thats not overly aggressive for a Japanese TF commander.

And the missing commas only tell you which ships were damaged, not which ships were not. Cavalry might well have deleted the comma on Hughes, Walke, or Morris, when he edited out the damage information. [;)]

[John Lansford]

Both US BB's have armor heavy enough to stand up against the IJN BB's 14" guns, and have guns that can punch the armor of their counterparts at nearly any range. Their weakness is speed; the IJN TF can disengage at will, or dictate the range. I'm figuring it turned into a Long Lance vs gunfire duel, with the USN taking the worst hits. Even one torpedo hit on a slow battleship will reduce its speed to the point it becomes a floating target for everything that can range on it. The USN DD screen is good but not good enough to stop torpedoes fired from 10k+ yards. I'd expect damage for all the battleships, but the USN heavies getting the worst of the fight (unless someone's magazine got hit by a 16" shell, that is).

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Both US BB's have armor heavy enough to stand up against the IJN BB's 14" guns, and have guns that can punch the armor of their counterparts at nearly any range. Their weakness is speed; the IJN TF can disengage at will, or dictate the range. I'm figuring it turned into a Long Lance vs gunfire duel, with the USN taking the worst hits. Even one torpedo hit on a slow battleship will reduce its speed to the point it becomes a floating target for everything that can range on it. The USN DD screen is good but not good enough to stop torpedoes fired from 10k+ yards. I'd expect damage for all the battleships, but the USN heavies getting the worst of the fight (unless someone's magazine got hit by a 16" shell, that is).

I had Hiei cripple Washington in my Guadalcanal PBEM with just 3-4 rounds that penetrated. I think it depends on range (which makes sense)? My shots were at 9,000 yards. I see shots in this that were at 9,000 or less multiple times. And Washington is newer/better than Colorado and Maryland. I think the Kongos are perfectly capable of putting down older USN BBs, and with relative ease.

[Canoerebel]

If Ching Lee commands the Allied TF, the Japanese take a drubbing and scamper home licking their wounds.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Because Ching Lee = Chuck Norris.

[Phanatikk]

Ching Lee = Tanaka Raizo.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If Ching Lee commands the Allied TF, the Japanese take a drubbing and scamper home licking their wounds.  Why?  Because Ching Lee = Chuck Norris.

[:D]

[Cavalry Corp]

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 1, on fire ( SANK AFTER BEING HIT BY SWARMS OF DAUNTLESS)
BB Haruna, Shell hits 1
CA Kako, Shell hits 6 ( SEVERE DAMAGE BUT MADE IT TO RABAUL)
CL Kinu
DD Shikinami, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Kikuzuki, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage ( SANK LATER )
DD Yunagi, Shell hits 1
DD Yugao, Shell hits 1
DD Kyukaze, Shell hits 1
DD Tachekaze, Shell hits 1
DD Tagonami, Shell hits 1
DD Suruyame, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage ( SANK LATER AFTER HIT BY PLANES)

Allied Ships
BB Maryland, Shell hits 43, heavy fires, heavy damage ( lOADS OF BELT ARMOUR HITS)
BB Colorado, Shell hits 17, on fire
CA Indianapolis, Shell hits 2
CL Detroit, Shell hits 6, on fire
CL Concord, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Nicholas, Shell hits 2
DD Hughes
DD Walke
DD Morris
DD Craven, Shell hits 6, on fire
DD McCall, Shell hits 1
DD Maury, Shell hits 3
DD Dunlap, Shell hits 3, heavy fires
DD Shaw, Shell hits 2, on fire

I am Japs PBEM SCN 2, 2 day turns, the battle happened as the US sprung an invasion of PM. Behind their surface units were about 20 juicy ships with 2 Marine Divs unloading. the old BB had been bombarding may have been low on ammo?
After this Betty from Rabaul put 3 torps in Arizona which was with the transports but did not want to attack the 20 transports much sank just 2. Planes from allied CVE put about 8 bombs on each Kongo and one sank the following day. I do not know if the old US BB sank. One allied cl was sunk by a sub the next day as well as an AVD. PM fell as I only had one regt assaulted by 2 marine divs - regts do not stand even well dug in 6.

[Lokasenna]

Losing the Kongo hurts, but I'm betting Maryland is sunk. Colorado should need a medium amount of yard time (30-60 days?) if even half of those hits are from the Kongos. If Maryland isn't sunk, she's out for the rest of the war at this point anyway. Haruna might be also...

It does look like the USN BBs were low on ammo, but it seems as if you're the one who got the short end of the stick, strategically.

[Cavalry Corp]

OK so for surface TF set up what would you guys do ?

Say Yamato and Mush what would you put with them ( I am making that decision soon) , or say a TF of slow old Jap BB like Fuso and sister?

Are all ships dragged down to the speed of the slowest ship in a battle - assume they are? That would be waste for say JAP CA to mix with anything except Kongos?

What is the optimum size of surface TF and why?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Losing the Kongo hurts, but I'm betting Maryland is sunk. Colorado should need a medium amount of yard time (30-60 days?) if even half of those hits are from the Kongos. If Maryland isn't sunk, she's out for the rest of the war at this point anyway. Haruna might be also...

It does look like the USN BBs were low on ammo, but it seems as if you're the one who got the short end of the stick, strategically.

From the surface battle, IJN BBs were hardly scratched. From the surface battle, USN had their two old BBs moderately damaged or heavily damaged / sunk. The Dauntless action is outside information that didn't impact the surface fight.

Several people were close enough saying that the old USN BBs would get pwned. And they did.

[Cavalry Corp]

Yes that was good.

[Lecivius]

"Several people were close enough saying that the old USN BBs would get pwned. And they did. "

They did, but they were most likely winchester. Not a fair comparison.

[Cavalry Corp]

Would anyone like to comment on good surface set up for Jap surface units that include 2 BB?