Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by JeffroK »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: JeffK

The US decision to keep to the 50cal was only acceptable in combat against japanese aircraft or German fighters.

Or German bombers. Or German transport aircraft. Or Italian fighters. Or Italian bombers. Or Italian transport aircraft. Or Chinese fighters. Or North Korean aircraft. Or Russian fighters. Or all manner of ground targets. Or all manner of naval targets.

I read the chart. Interesting, but the numbers suggest that one of the most successful aircraft of the war-the Bf109-was underarmed by comparison to many of the US 0.50-armed aircraft. Also, if it was all about muzzle velocity and throw weight, wouldn't the Bristol Beaufighter have been a superlative fighter instead of an also-ran?
The 20mm HS404 was a far superior weapon and 4 x 20mm much better than 6 x 50cal.
However it took a long time for the US to produce a combat worthy 20mm.

Having an excellent 20mm cannon system would have been nice. However, the 0.50 round was an excellent intermediate-sized round for many purposes.

I think the question could be asked as to why it took so many others such a long time to come up with a similar 0.50 / 12.7mm cartridge and MG that surpassed the Browning M2 0.50. Why on Earth were Axis (and other Allied) airplane armaments still using rifle-caliber cartridges late in the war? Maybe because they didn't have good options for a reliable intermediate-sized caliber weapon?

Also-have you read any autobiographies of pilots that used some of the cannon systems? They went "Winchester" very quickly due to limited ammunition-moreso than the smaller ballistics.

Anyways, I'm not convinced that a P-47D2 could be considered dangerously undergunned or only suitable for use against Japanese aircraft or German fighters. It was a very good multi-role aircraft and very well armed for its intended purpose.
From http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm

A bit silly saying the Beaufighter should be the best because it had more guns isnt it. You have to get the guns pointing at the enemy and the Beau wasnt quite the most manouverable.

To return to the original question, were the Americans right to rely so heavily on the .50 M2 when all other combatant nations had a clear preference for cannon of at least 20 mm calibre? The answer has to be yes. It was adequate for its purpose, and was the only satisfactory aircraft gun in production in the USA. It was very reliable (except where the installations created problems), was made in huge quantities, and the simplification of supply by comparison with the diversity of weapons used by the Axis powers gave a major logistical advantage. However, the Americans could get away with using a weapon so deficient in destructive power not only because of the nature of their opposition, but also because the size and engine power of their fighters enabled them to carry a battery of at least six guns, thus making up in quantity what they lacked in destructive quality.

The advantages of the 20 mm Hispano M2 were not entirely ignored. It was carried by Lockheed P-38s, together with four .50 Brownings. It was also installed in nightfighters, which needed maximum firepower to convert a short firing opportunity into a kill. Four were installed in Northrop's P-61 Black Widow, and two could be mounted in a Grumman F6F-5N. The cannon's extra firepower was also appreciated for ground strafing.

After the war the US Navy quickly changed over to the 20 mm cannon in its improved, faster-firing and more reliable M3 form, but the USAF stayed with the .50 M3 until the fighting in Korea demonstrated once and for all that the HMG had had its day. From the mid-1950s the USAF at last replaced the old Browning with 20 mm cannon, initially the M39 revolver and then the M61 rotary - just as most of the rest of the world was moving up to 30 mm!
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by morejeffs »

To a certain extent, the US did not move on the the 20mm cannon as it really did not have to......Against Japanese fighters, bombers as well as German fighters (for the most part) the 50 cal worked....Clearly the US had some teething problems making a very good cannon...So it seems to have made sense to hold off on the the cannon.
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by AU Tiger_MatrixForum »

Just got the replay, and the Japanese pilots took another beating in the PI and at Pearl, but I did lose three BB's in the process. More later.
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by AU Tiger_MatrixForum »

8 December 1941
The Worst is Past


Finally having waded through the first full turn for the Allies, I can settle back and have fun.

Strategic Aims:
DEI: I will be attempting a fortress Palembang, and to that end I have dispatched the 45th and 46th Indian Brigades (already aboard ship at beginning of game) towards Oosthaven where they will disembark and entrain for Palembang. My next order of business will be to scrounge some engineering units to send there to assist in digging. I would love to try to withdraw some AA from Malaysia for that purpose, but it might be too dangerous – the Japanese are landing in force now, and have a taskforce heading for Kuantan now.
Most ships in the theater are congregating in Soerbaja, although Force Z, with some reinforcing elements are rendezvousing just West of Oosthaven. Some will be very short of full from their high speed dashes and will need a sip at Oosthaven.

Malaysia: Run away more.

Burma/India: Not really sure yet, although I am building forts in Northern Burma, not bothering with it in Rangoon.

The PI: Based on intercepts, Skyros is doing a full court press on the archipelago. Interestingly, he has been bombing, or attempting to bomb I should say, Iba. Landing at Iba would be a good move to take Clark and cut off lines of retreat there, but I have seen no indication that he intends to land there other than the bombing. Nevertheless, I am moving the 21st PA Division to Iba from Lingayen to reinforce the 31st.
I am going to want to start pulling P-40’s out of the place at some point, but right now they are killing airplanes with reckless abandon as these selected combat reports will show:

[center]Morning Air attack on Iba , at 78,75

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 23 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 27

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 15 destroyed, 2 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Runway hits 6



Morning Air attack on Clark Field , at 79,76

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 27

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 10
P-40B Warhawk x 9
P-40E Warhawk x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 9 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-35A: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 4



Morning Air attack on Clark Field , at 79,76

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 46 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 64
G3M2 Nell x 36

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 18
P-40B Warhawk x 19
P-40E Warhawk x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 5 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-35A: 2 destroyed
P-40B Warhawk: 2 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 3 destroyed
O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground

Airbase hits 12
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 22


Morning Air attack on Iba , at 78,75

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 13

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 5 destroyed, 1 damaged

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 20000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb


Morning Air attack on Iba , at 78,75

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 9

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses
[/center]


Eastern Pacific: I seriously doubt that Skyros will be sticking around for a third day of attacks. His strikes came in uncoordinated due a carrier movement mistake that he reported to me in the sending email. A couple of attacks got through and managed to sink the Tennessee, Nevada, and Colorado, but his reported pilot loses are heavy:


12/7/41
A6M2 killed: 7 damaged: 4
B5M2 killed: 6 damaged: 16
D3A1 killed: 5 damaged: 29


12/8/41
A6M2 killed: 3 damaged: 0
B5M2 killed: 11 damaged: 24
D3A1 killed: 10 damaged: 15

Of course FOW probably inflates these numbers, but note that the second day’s attacks were at long range due to the TF movement mistake, so Ops losses can be expected also.

The Japanese landed and took Tarawa this turn. The Lexington will be making a high speed run to strike this TF from the Southeast, maximizing the range for the Nells in the Marshalls. Those Nells are probably fatigued and having morale issues are two days of attacks on Wake where the Marine pilots have done well for themselves. The Enterprise won’t be able to be in range of Tarawa, but should be able to extend some CAP over the Lexington. After this. The CV’s will be headed to meet the AO’s loading now both in OZ and the WC to meet them. At this moment I am not sure if they head East or West, but West is more likely.
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by obvert »

Iba is one of the set bombing locations for the IJ in the opening but I would imagine he would turn that off. You've gotten a huge bonus by his mistake in letting those bombers fly those missions and get slaughtered. Especially the highly experienced IJNAF crews which are irreplaceable in the beginning.

Forget about defending any invasion point and get your troops plus all of their supply into manila and Clark and begin to chose which you'll hold out in for the siege. Splitting your forces on Luzon is beneficial to the Japanese and makes the Allied defensive stand much easier to crush.
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by AU Tiger_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: obvert

Iba is one of the set bombing locations for the IJ in the opening but I would imagine he would turn that off. You've gotten a huge bonus by his mistake in letting those bombers fly those missions and get slaughtered. Especially the highly experienced IJNAF crews which are irreplaceable in the beginning.

Forget about defending any invasion point and get your troops plus all of their supply into manila and Clark and begin to chose which you'll hold out in for the siege. Splitting your forces on Luzon is beneficial to the Japanese and makes the Allied defensive stand much easier to crush.

Ah, that makes sense. I appreciate it.


I just noticed an attack tanker TF heading for Canada! Truthfully I imagine it is a sub on it's way to the WC.



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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by geofflambert »

On the Intel Monkey, do you have Python and does the dumb primate know where to find it?

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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by AU Tiger_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

On the Intel Monkey, do you have Python and does the dumb primate know where to find it?


Don't know. (Do have Python though) I got Tracker working last night, but haven't looked into the Simian yet. I just tried to run it once and moved on. I will probably investigate it tonight.

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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by Canoerebel »

That cluster of ships is almost certain a replenishment TF - a group of AOs with an escorting DD or two.  That's a forward position for the critters.  If I were you, I would wonder if my opponent was planning to refuel forward and then raid the West Coast ports, possibly targeting the repairing BBs at Seattle or the host of ships at San Fran.  You don't have alot of good fighters on West Coast, but you should take whatever precautions you can.
 
One possibilty is to post Saratoga close enough to West Coast to fly her Wildcats to San Fran if needed (but don't let her blunder into the path of KB).
 
Another possibility is to try to orchestrate a carrier intercept of his oilers.  If KB goes north or east, Ent and Lex can move north near Midway or French Frigate, then intercepting and decimating those oilers.  I've done that successfully in one game and it's a big blow to Japan.  However, that's almost like pulling an inside straight.  You have to have an absolutely solid hunch that the play is going to work and that your carriers aren't going to blunder into KB.
 
One final thought.  On the off chance that KB does a carrier raid vs. West Coast, it's possble sorties could drop pretty low, leaving the IJN carriers vulnerable to attack by your two (or three) fleet carriers.  That might be another reason to post your carriers somewhere whee you can move on that possiblity if the KB does go east.
 
All of these involve big "ifs."  None of this might work, but it's good to keep every possibilty in mind, so that you can weigh and sift each piece of evidence until the right fit comes along.
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by AU Tiger_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That cluster of ships is almost certain a replenishment TF - a group of AOs with an escorting DD or two.  That's a forward position for the critters.  If I were you, I would wonder if my opponent was planning to refuel forward and then raid the West Coast ports, possibly targeting the repairing BBs at Seattle or the host of ships at San Fran.  You don't have alot of good fighters on West Coast, but you should take whatever precautions you can.

One possibilty is to post Saratoga close enough to West Coast to fly her Wildcats to San Fran if needed (but don't let her blunder into the path of KB).

Another possibility is to try to orchestrate a carrier intercept of his oilers.  If KB goes north or east, Ent and Lex can move north near Midway or French Frigate, then intercepting and decimating those oilers.  I've done that successfully in one game and it's a big blow to Japan.  However, that's almost like pulling an inside straight.  You have to have an absolutely solid hunch that the play is going to work and that your carriers aren't going to blunder into KB.

One final thought.  On the off chance that KB does a carrier raid vs. West Coast, it's possble sorties could drop pretty low, leaving the IJN carriers vulnerable to attack by your two (or three) fleet carriers.  That might be another reason to post your carriers somewhere whee you can move on that possiblity if the KB does go east.

All of these involve big "ifs."  None of this might work, but it's good to keep every possibilty in mind, so that you can weigh and sift each piece of evidence until the right fit comes along.


Interesting thought, I will keep an eye on it. My CV's are raiding Tarawa this coming turn, but can turn back towards Pearl (or environs). I am not sanguine about trying to ambush the Replenishment fleet unless he does head towards the WC. I have some subs transiting from the WC to PH, I think I will change their orders to set up a picket line between PH and the WC. He has lost more than a few planes at Pearl, so I wonder if he will go East now, even if he was planning it before. Thanks for the tip; I won't harass you too bad now when AU stomps a mudhole in the Bulldogs. [8D]
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by AU Tiger_MatrixForum »

9 December 1941
The Allies Strike Back! Kind of.


The Japanese have made their first landing in Borneo at Brunei, and it appears as though a TF is heading for Balikpapan as well. I am tempted to sortie a fleet to intercept them, but the mKB is uncomfortably close in the Celebes Sea. And speaking of which, the mKB is waiting for the deluge of ships heading south out of Manila, but is waiting in vain because I am slipping the ships out of the PI to the east with routing set to “safer”. The second batch received orders this turn to sail after seeing the first batch is safely heading into the Philippine Sea.

The Japanese have landed in the PI at Aparri and the base on the Northern Coast where you can’t eat meat or wear leather shoes.

14 hexes north of PH the KB has rendezvoused with its replenishment fleet, which has moved westward from its position last turn. Both of these fleets repeated PBY sightings, and the data reports that both task forces are moving west.

The Tarawa raid was a complete success with bombers from both carriers:

[center]Morning Air attack on TF, near Tarawa at 136,128

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 11
SBD-2 Dauntless x 36

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-2 Dauntless: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CM Tokiwa, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
PB Nagata Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Tenyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Kamikaze Maru, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk
CM Okinoshima

Japanese ground losses:
874 casualties reported
Squads: 28 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 22 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 19 (18 destroyed, 1 disabled)



Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tarawa at 136,128

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
F2A-3 Buffalo x 10
SB2U-3 Vindicator x 18
SBD-2 Dauntless x 18
SBD-3 Dauntless x 18

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-2 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CM Okinoshima, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Tenyo Maru, Bomb hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
CM Tokiwa, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Asanagi, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Nagata Maru, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Yunagi, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
419 casualties reported
Squads: 24 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 27 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 4 (3 destroyed, 1 disabled)



Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tarawa at 136,128

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 11
SBD-2 Dauntless x 16

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAK Tenyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
DD Asanagi, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CM Tokiwa, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Nagata Maru, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk

Japanese ground losses:
55 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0
disabled[/center]

The carriers were set to move southeast away from Tarawa and then turn west. A small AO fleet is leaving Sydney to help them in to Oz.

Wake Island was invaded today, the shock attack wiped out the fort 1 and caused about equal losses to both.

The Japanese air wings are still bleeding over Malaya and the Philippines, but Skyros is changing his tactics some; he sent a Zero sweep, 70 strong, over Manila. The few planes that got into the air were swatted down, claiming 1 Zero in the process.


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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by AU Tiger_MatrixForum »

From Tracker

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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by ny59giants »

Iba is an important first turn target for Japan to damage and destroy those P-40s on the ground as they cannot get moved out by rail.
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by geofflambert »

Don't forget you can always send out xAKs and xAPs to refuel carriers at sea, from their own fuel tanks.

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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by AU Tiger_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Don't forget you can always send out xAKs and xAPs to refuel carriers at sea, from their own fuel tanks.

Hmmm... I figured they probably "fixed" that. Thanks


Just got the next turn, and just had to share this:


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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by Lokasenna »

Great job at Tarawa. Now bug out before he sends KB hunting!
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by AU Tiger_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Great job at Tarawa. Now bug out before he sends KB hunting!


Indeed. The CV's are clear and heading for Noumea.
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by Cpt Sherwood »

In case you ever need it, Canton Island starts with 8,000 fuel.
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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by geofflambert »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Great job at Tarawa. Now bug out before he sends KB hunting!

Yes, by all means get out before you observe the crimson tide you just created.

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RE: Western Civilization in Grave Danger - AU Tiger (A) vs. Skyros (J)

Post by geofflambert »

By the way, I haven't seen the film, were they represented in the "World War Z" movie?

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