Night bombing unreality?

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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: jetjockey

"So, here we see night bombing used as a preface to a more comprehensive daylight campaign. The main objective of the night attack was to shock the Japanese, destroy a significant portion of his aircraft, and set fuel dumps ablaze. This was accomplished. Note that some of the night attackers did not achieve the target; this is in line with what we see in the game under the betas. Did the entire four-day campaign take place at night? No. Only the first night. Why? Because after the first night the Allies judged the Japanese sufficiently attrited that the risk-reward ratio favored day attacks to finish the job. But also note that Japan could not and did not get reinforcements into the theater during the campaign. And this campaign was decisive in taking that portion of NG."

Dude, are we really reading the same text here? The damage listed was attributed to the B-25s attacking at tree-top level, at 0900. The B-24s, attacking at night, were credited with disturbing the Japanese pilot's sleep cycle and tiring out the gunners; significant to this raid, but otherwise not impressive. If you are looking for an example of accurate night-time bombing, this isn't it.

Dude, backatcha. If you read the paper, congratulations.

The night raid did more than keep the gunners awake, but the paper does not give a full BDA. Why? Perhaps it's in the source docs, but I also suspect one was never done since the 0900 raid made it impossible to separate damage from each. (For some reason there don't appear to be any photos from the night raid. Imagine.) Clearly the first raid found the AF, clearly they bombed it. I suspect, but the paper does not say, that raid was heavy on incendiaries as the 0900 raid found a mess and hitting avgas was a normal Allied objective in this era elsewhere. IT was harder to transport in than replacement planes which could fly.

In the case of low- or medium-altitude 4Es, finding the AF and dropping full loads, given how over-stacked it was (documented), they were plenty accurate. Further, given that they (documented) took off in full dark and transited the same way, this pretty large raid shows the frequent JFB claim that AFs could not be found at night to be untrue. A 3-hour transit from the other side of a large mountain range? Pretty impressive.

Edit: Here are the relevant paragraphs from the paper:

"For the first strike, Whitehead chose to use heavy bombers at night hoping to catch the Japanese unprepared. Between 2100 and midnight on the 16th, 50 heavy bombers took off from airfields in the Port Moresby area for the three hour flight to the Wewak complex. A total of 48 aircraft reached the four airfields at But, Boram, Dagua, and Wewak and dropped a combination of incendiary, parafrag and demolition bombs.136
On August 17th, between the hours 0600 and 0630, 63 B-25s took off from Port Moresby and Dobodura. Due to a combination of bad weather and the inability of ten of the aircraft to release their 300-gallon turret tanks (a mandatory abort item by direction of Whitehead), only 32 aircraft reached the target.137 The B-25s met light resistance indicating that the heavy bombers had achieved their objective of paralyzing the enemy."

Great find Bull. Thanks. [:)]

This adds to my growing feeling that the kind of raids possible in the game simply didn't happen in the war, and the type of destruction was not pinpoint but a scattered injury to a larger base structure.

This makes the rule we adopted in my game with Torsten look pretty good. An HR for 50 bombers per target per turn for anything other than manpower when bombing at night.

Night bombing can thus still be used to 'soften' a target, as in it's historical use shown here, but won't take out that target completely without the follow-on accuracy of daylight raids.

As always, I don't do HRs, but I know most do. In this case it's not a bad HR, but I think, from my experience so far, it's mostly unnecessary. In 1942 when I can't afford to escort bombers and if I could it's with sub-par fighters I can't get 50 4Es together on the best day. By the time I can I think night bombing will be a sideline as the negatives to it under the betas are significant. (I mean non-Manpower here.) Once I can escort and have enough bombers the trade-off ratio will probably shift to sneakier daytime operations. More damage, more defended attackers.

I can't say enough how much I think the beta coordination changes have changed night bombing from stock as-shipped. Most nights about 1/3 to 1/2, with outliers to be sure, don't reach any target while still racking up supply usage, pilot fatigue, and ops losses. It's no magic bullet.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by DuckofTindalos »

Your opponent is gaming the system here. Ultra low level night bombings were super rare in WW2. We're talking Dambusters level rare.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



Dude, backatcha. If you read the paper, congratulations.

The night raid did more than keep the gunners awake, but the paper does not give a full BDA. Why? Perhaps it's in the source docs, but I also suspect one was never done since the 0900 raid made it impossible to separate damage from each. (For some reason there don't appear to be any photos from the night raid. Imagine.) Clearly the first raid found the AF, clearly they bombed it. I suspect, but the paper does not say, that raid was heavy on incendiaries as the 0900 raid found a mess and hitting avgas was a normal Allied objective in this era elsewhere. IT was harder to transport in than replacement planes which could fly.

In the case of low- or medium-altitude 4Es, finding the AF and dropping full loads, given how over-stacked it was (documented), they were plenty accurate. Further, given that they (documented) took off in full dark and transited the same way, this pretty large raid shows the frequent JFB claim that AFs could not be found at night to be untrue. A 3-hour transit from the other side of a large mountain range? Pretty impressive.

Edit: Here are the relevant paragraphs from the paper:

"For the first strike, Whitehead chose to use heavy bombers at night hoping to catch the Japanese unprepared. Between 2100 and midnight on the 16th, 50 heavy bombers took off from airfields in the Port Moresby area for the three hour flight to the Wewak complex. A total of 48 aircraft reached the four airfields at But, Boram, Dagua, and Wewak and dropped a combination of incendiary, parafrag and demolition bombs.136
On August 17th, between the hours 0600 and 0630, 63 B-25s took off from Port Moresby and Dobodura. Due to a combination of bad weather and the inability of ten of the aircraft to release their 300-gallon turret tanks (a mandatory abort item by direction of Whitehead), only 32 aircraft reached the target.137 The B-25s met light resistance indicating that the heavy bombers had achieved their objective of paralyzing the enemy."

Great find Bull. Thanks. [:)]

This adds to my growing feeling that the kind of raids possible in the game simply didn't happen in the war, and the type of destruction was not pinpoint but a scattered injury to a larger base structure.

This makes the rule we adopted in my game with Torsten look pretty good. An HR for 50 bombers per target per turn for anything other than manpower when bombing at night.

Night bombing can thus still be used to 'soften' a target, as in it's historical use shown here, but won't take out that target completely without the follow-on accuracy of daylight raids.

As always, I don't do HRs, but I know most do. In this case it's not a bad HR, but I think, from my experience so far, it's mostly unnecessary. In 1942 when I can't afford to escort bombers and if I could it's with sub-par fighters I can't get 50 4Es together on the best day. By the time I can I think night bombing will be a sideline as the negatives to it under the betas are significant. (I mean non-Manpower here.) Once I can escort and have enough bombers the trade-off ratio will probably shift to sneakier daytime operations. More damage, more defended attackers.

I can't say enough how much I think the beta coordination changes have changed night bombing from stock as-shipped. Most nights about 1/3 to 1/2, with outliers to be sure, don't reach any target while still racking up supply usage, pilot fatigue, and ops losses. It's no magic bullet.

The rule was instigated after a night raid in 42 by 300+ 4E and 2E that closed a level 6 field and destroyed most of the 100+ fighters in base on the ground.

This is with the official patch.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: obvert

The rule was instigated after a night raid in 42 by 300+ 4E and 2E that closed a level 6 field and destroyed most of the 100+ fighters in base on the ground.

This is with the official patch.

Bullwinkle is saying that the latest beta fixes this ... I haven't re-run my tests in the latest beta ....

My testing had results consistent with what you are seeing in your game.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by jetjockey »

Again, I go back to the text that YOU provide. It gives no indication that the night raid did ANY damage at Wewak. Standard BDA would have at least made an attempt to quantify the effectiveness of the night raid. Instead we are told that the B-24s accomplished their mission which was to "soften up enemy opposition by tiring out the antiaircraft gunners and by keeping the pilots awake during the night." Any other interpretation of this document is pure conjecture.

You may be able to find a document that supports your position, but this isn't it.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by MDDgames »

Interesting that Bullwinkles quotes come from the allied side interpretation of what the allies THOUGHT. Wonder what the Japanese side had to say about the effectiveness of this.

To that end, I googled "allied night attacks on japanese airfields", and you know what I found? Nothing. Not 1 blessed thing. I wonder why...

But it wasnt a total loss. Came across this TM printed in Sep 44. An analysis of Japanese tactics. Interesting read.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-nzfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=allied+night+attacks+on+japanese+airfields&source=bl&ots=HAJbrzoc37&sig=_NSFWGPtnjGbhDFZApbXtLuZU0Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cuj5Ue6-JcjXyAGavYGQDg&ved=0CGQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=allied night attacks on japanese airfields&f=false
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: obvert

The rule was instigated after a night raid in 42 by 300+ 4E and 2E that closed a level 6 field and destroyed most of the 100+ fighters in base on the ground.

This is with the official patch.

OK, this is interesting.

Later in 1942 it's of course easier to amass 300 multi-engine. I'm in June, and I don't have that many in the world. I've been using mine aggressively in an anti-industry role, especially oil, and almost always at extreme range. I've had a lot of ops losses. Still, even by later in the year, this is a huge portion of his inventory. Was this smart?

You don't give info as to location, your CAP posture, etc. But 300 multi-engines can be seen by recon. Did you not see them? Also, you have 100 fighters in range of at least 300 multi-engine. Did you have ANY CAP up? Any would have done a lot to disrupt this attack. I suspect you didn't as most players never run night CAP, figuring they're "safe." It's like a chess player assuming the opposing queen will never move on the black squares. Part of this is I think a desire to have max forces available to use in better daylight conditions. But that works in both directions.

Also, this was official patch. I have to think this attack came from one base; even under the official there was less than perfect coordination. Under the beta this attack, even from one base, would be hard to coordinate with 4E and 2E mixed. Under the beta a lot of this attack would have gotten lost or not launched.

But was this attack smart for him to do? You lost 100 fighters. That's what? a week's production in 1942? And a Level 6 was closed. For how long? The support needed to run 100 fighters probably has enough engineers to fix that in 3-4 days max. And I'm sure he lost some planes to ops loss at least.

But what was his opportunity cost? What else could he have done with 300 premium aircraft? If this was in support of a major land attack I might see it, but if it was just to blow stuff up? Dumb. Even in 1942 300 multi-engine can take out 60-80 points of Oil in one attack. For sure at least 50 HI points and about that in LI. If this was Burma he has such targets in range if he looks. Instead he blew up fighters you'll rebuild. He got a little VP gift, but he didn't kill any pilots. If I were you I'd welcome misuse of premium assets like this, not legislate against it.

And the next turn you knew he had 300 precious, non-replaceable planes sitting at bases you probably could reach the next night with Netties. You attacked them, right?
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: jetjockey

Again, I go back to the text that YOU provide. It gives no indication that the night raid did ANY damage at Wewak. Standard BDA would have at least made an attempt to quantify the effectiveness of the night raid. Instead we are told that the B-24s accomplished their mission which was to "soften up enemy opposition by tiring out the antiaircraft gunners and by keeping the pilots awake during the night." Any other interpretation of this document is pure conjecture.

You may be able to find a document that supports your position, but this isn't it.

I bolded the portion of the document that says what I said. But your challenging tone got my back up a bit, so I dusted off that undergrad history degree and did some digging. What I found may be of interest to the grogs here. And yeah, original source documents DO support what Major Gann said in his thesis in 1992. So come with me . . .

I re-posted the portion of the thesis which said, but didn't prove, that the night attack by the heavies disrupted the airfield to an extent that opposition against the 0900 medium-bomber and fighter attack was significantly suppressed. Did Major Gann accurately summarize his source? Yes, he did. How do we know? He footnoted it. So let's go look at the note.

"For the first strike, Whitehead chose to use heavy bombers at night hoping to catch the Japanese unprepared. Between 2100 and midnight on the 16th, 50 heavy bombers took off from airfields in the Port Moresby area for the three hour flight to the Wewak complex. A total of 48 aircraft reached the four airfields at But, Boram, Dagua, and Wewak and dropped a combination of incendiary, parafrag and demolition bombs.136"

Note 136 reads: "136 Watson, Huon Campaign, 196-197. See also Kenney Reports, 276; and “How the Fifth Air Force Destroys Jap Planes on the Ground, 5."

OK, from this Notes format convention we need to look north for the first time this source was cited. And who the heck is this guy Watson? And we find "129 Richard L. Watson, Jr., Major, USA, “The Fifth Air Force in the Huon Peninsula Campaign, January to October 1943,” AAF Reference History #13, AAF Historical Office, Headquarters, AAF, (Maxwell AFB, Alabama: USAF/HRA, January 1946)"

Huh. So, Watson was a serving officer, and he wrote an official history of the campaign, and he did it in 1946 while it was fresh. But any swivel-servant could write such a thing using the New York Times as source, from his cozy office in D.C. Who was Major Watson, really?

Google provides. Insert the title of this work and behold! The entire piece is on-line.

The original, typed by hand and stamped with security classification is here: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AAFHS/AAFHS-113.pdf

But a much easier to read, edited version is here. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/IV/

This is Volume IV of the massive, official, history of the Army Air Corps in WWII. Volume I is at http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/I/

"IN March 1942, President Franklin D. Roosevelt wrote to the Director of the Bureau of the Budget ordering each war agency to prepare "an accurate and objective account" of that agency's war experience. Soon after, the Army Air Forces began hiring professional historians so that its history could, in the words of Brigadier General Laurence Kuter, "be recorded while it is hot and that personnel be selected and an agency set up for a clear historian's job without axe to grind or defense to prepare." An Historical Division was established in Headquarters Army Air Forces under Air Intelligence, in September 1942, and the modern Air Force historical program began.

With the end of the war, Headquarters approved a plan for writing and publishing a seven-volume history. In December 1945, Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker, Deputy Commander of Army Air Forces, asked the Chancellor of the University of Chicago to "assume the responsibility for the publication" of the history, stressing that it must "meet the highest academic standards." Lieutenant Colonel Wesley Frank Craven of New York University and Major James Lea Cate of the University of Chicago, both of whom had been assigned to the historical program, were selected to be editors of the volumes. Between 1948 and 1958 seven were published. With publication of the last, the editors wrote that the Air Force had "fulfilled in letter and spirit" the promise of access to documents and complete freedom of historical interpretation. Like all history, The Army Air Forces in World War II reflects the era when it was conceived, researched, and written. The strategic bombing campaigns received the primary emphasis, not only because of a widely-shared belief in bombardment's contribution

--iii--

to victory, but also because of its importance in establishing the United States Air Force as a military service independent of the Army."


In Volume I, and later in Volume IV, we see that Major Watson was indeed a real professor of history at Duke University (a very fine school.) He was part of the very large effort, ordered by the President of the United States in early 1942, to fully document the coming war. This mammoth effort was not completed until the late-1950s. But during the war Major Watson, who headed up the southwest Pacific region's efforts, worked for three years documenting, observing, writing. With full access to the players and the documents, including classified ones. This is all detailed in Volume I. It's fascinating stuff.

"But the authors, like most members of the wartime Army, were civilians in uniform rather than professional soldiers. In all cases the period of academic training and practice exceeded in length that of military indoctrination and service; the authors were citizens and taxpayers before, and after, their tour of military duty, and they have felt called on to write no official apologia. Service loyalties they undoubtedly carried with them in returning to their academic posts, but not to the degree that their critical faculties have been submerged. They have written as present scholars rather than as former Air Corps officers.

Of the individual contributors to this volume, the following biographical facts are pertinent. Maj. James L. Cate, as a member of the staff of the Historical Office, devoted his attention chiefly to the problems of strategic bombardment and after June 1944 served as historical officer of the Twentieth Air Force. miss Kathleen Williams' research and writing, done under the immediate direction of the chief of the Operational History Branch, ranged over varied fields of AAF organization and operation according to the immediate need of the moment. Maj. Richard L. Watson for three years carried the main responsibility in the office for the Southwest Pacific; Maj. Kramer J. Rohfleisch held a similar responsibility for the remainder of the Pacific; and Maj. Herbert Weaver bore the responsibility for the China-Burma-India theater. Capt. William A. Goss served as historian with the Fourth Air Force and was subsequently brought into AAF Headquarters for study of continental air defenses. Lt. Arthur B. Ferguson divided his attention between antisubmarine operations and the Combined Bomber Offensive. Capt. John D. Carter served first as historian of the South Atlantic Wing, Air Transport Command, and after that at Headquarters, ATC. Capt. Alfred Goldberg, after working on the histories of the VIII Air Force Service Command and Air Service Command, USSTAF, was assigned to Headquarters, USSTAF."

So, what does Volume IV say about the raid in question? Well, if one reads that section it is immediately apparent that Major Gann did accurately summarize it in his thesis. His goal was argumentative, not merely descriptive as Major Watson's was, so Gann did not reproduce Watson's complete comments. But they are accurate. The first raid by heavy bombers was successful and important to the campaign over the succeeding days. A BDA WAS performed before the 0900 raid came in. How detailed Watson does not say; he does say there was no time to return film to Pt. Moresby, develop it, and disseminate to briefers before the 0900 raid took off about 0600. But there was a BDA.

This is the relevant portion of the document:

"Aerial photographs on 30 July had shown only nineteen light bombers on the airfield at But. Improvements on the drome, however, seemed to indicate its future use by heavy aircraft. Four days later, there were twenty fighters and several light and medium bombers at Wewak, eighteen light bombers and five fighters at But, and a total of fifty-six aircraft at Dagua. The build-up continued until on 13 August eight medium bombers, thirty-one light bombers, and sixty-nine f thirty-four light bombers, and twenty-three fighters at But and Dagua.62 General Whitehead now had at his disposal two heavy groups with sixty-four bombers in commission and two medium groups with fifty-eight B-25's having a fuel capacity equal to the round trip from Port Moresby.63 And on the afternoon of 16 August, final plans were made for the most decisive series of air strikes carried out by the Fifth Air Force since the Bismarck Sea action. Eight squadrons of heavies would open the assault with night attacks on the four Wewak airdromes. After this preliminary softening, five squadrons of B-25 strafers, covered by a strong fighter escort, would follow at minimum altitude to bomb and strafe every plane still on the ground.64.

Between 2100 and midnight of 16 August, twelve B-17's and thirty-eight B-24's took off from Port Moresby. The weather was generally good, and all aircraft reached the target except for two B-24's which turned back because of mechanical difficulties. Shortly after midnight, the first heavy bombers crossed the target and from then until after 0300 the bombers divided their attention among the four Wewak dromes. Incendiaries carried by the leading planes were supposed to light the targets, but the timing was off and the incendiaries and frag clusters fell together. Searchlights proved annoying, antiaircraft fire was intense, and several night fighters attempted interception, but only three aircraft were lost and none apparently to the enemy fighters.65 Results are difficult to determine. Photographs of Wewak, Boram, and Dagua, taken early on the following morning and prior to the subsequent attacks, showed "at least 18 unserviceable" aircraft out of some 204 counted. It was certain only that the heavies had accomplished their primary mission--to keep the Japanese aircraft grounded for the next attack.

Even while the pictures were being shot, three squadrons of B-25'S made ready for the take-off at Dobodura and two more squadrons at Port Moresby. The Moresby-based planes, undertaking in their 500-mile flight to Wewak the deepest penetration by medium bombers into enemy-held New Guinea yet made, had trouble. Of the twenty-six B-25's taking off, only three reached the target. These three performed magnificently in their attack on Dagua. They scattered 105 x 23-pound parafrags which smashed at least seventeen aircraft on the ground, fired more than 5,000 rounds, and shot down one of fifteen intercepting Oscars, but the failure of the other planes to get through allowed But to go scot-free. Twenty-nine of the strafers from Dobodura (thirty-seven had taken off), however, dropped 786 parafrags and claimed 786 hits on Boram and Wewak. At Wewak, the 90th Squadron rather conservatively claimed about fifteen aircraft destroyed or damaged. The 8th Squadron announced that at Boram at least fifteen of forty to sixty aircraft had been totally destroyed and twenty-five to thirty left burning. The 13th Squadron, which had joined the 8th in the attack on Boram, reported that of seventy to eighty aircraft on the runway, "all [were] believed destroyed or severely damaged."66.

Except for one fighter attack, which the B-25's themselves broke up, Japanese resistance was limited to fairly heavy antiaircraft fire. The heavy bombers which had preceded the mediums undoubtedly should be credited in part, but the Fifth Air Force had also sent with the mediums fighter escort on a scale theretofore unknown in the Southwest Pacific. All six P-38 squadrons participated; on the early morning of 17 August, 99 of the 127 fighters actually in commission took off from Dobodura and Moresby to form the escort. Of these planes, fourteen turned back because of mechanical difficulties. The remainder, with the comforting knowledge of adequate refueling facilities at Tsili Tsili, completed what to them was an uneventful flight with "nil" interceptions.67"

What was Major Watson's source for the account of the first attack? Notes 64 and 65.

Note 64: "64. Account of Mission 228-G on 16 Aug. 1943,63d, 64th, 6ph, and 403d Bomb."

Note 65: "65. Ibid.; Form 34, 15-21 Aug. 1943, 63d, 64th, 6ph, 403d, 319th, 320th, 321st, and 400th Sqs."

What is a "Form 34"?

"At the center of the new Management Control stood the two offices of Organizational Planning and of Statistical Control. The former studied administrative procedures and prepared flow charts of AAF activity with a view to recommending necessary reforms or reorganizations; it also coordinated all administrative publications. Statistical Control undertook to consolidate and systematize all statistical reporting so as to provide for staff purposes information that was not only full but which facilitated comparative studies. For this last purpose, it was necessary that the data be based upon a uniform system of reporting. The methods employed are perhaps best suggested by the newly developed AAF Form 127, which became the basic report for statistical information on personnel. Required at regular intervals from all AAF units, this form reported all personnel both by military specialty and unit assignment. Prepared in multiple copies for transmission through channels, the report gave some assurance that all echelons of command would base their studies on the same statistics. By providing comparable data for every unit of the AAF, Form 127 greatly facilitated the preparation

--37--

of over-all analyses. Similarly, the daily inventory of aircraft (AAF Form 120) was used as a source of information for determining advance requirements as well as the most effective distribution of equipment on hand. During the latter half of the war Statistical Control undertook through AAF Form 34--a report listing for each mission such items as the number of planes employed, the flying time, the bomb tonnage dropped, the total of ammunition and fuel consumed, and the losses sustained or inflicted--to replace fragmentary and uneven reports from combat theaters with uniform world-wide operational statistics. A special dividend for historians came at the end of hostilities in the Army Air Forces Statistical Digest, a publication of December 1945 which summarized in as accurate and complete a form as can be hoped for the statistical record of the war years.18"

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/VI/AAF-VI-2.html


Referring again to the above quoted material, we see that:

1) The first raid by the heavies succeeded in its main objective

2) Night fighters were aloft (JFBs take note)

3) There was night AA fire and it was significant

4) Incendiaries were dropped

5) "At least" 18 planes were knocked out on the ground. Whatever their number, in combination with fires and disruption to ground personnel, enemy opposition to the 0900 raid was low. Had the heavies not attacked at night, and the second raid had instead found a pristine set of four air bases, the results of the 0900 raids might have been very different.

I trust that this analysis satisfies you and any others here suspicious of Major Gann's academic efforts in 1992.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: MDDgames

Interesting that Bullwinkles quotes come from the allied side interpretation of what the allies THOUGHT. Wonder what the Japanese side had to say about the effectiveness of this.

To that end, I googled "allied night attacks on japanese airfields", and you know what I found? Nothing. Not 1 blessed thing. I wonder why...

Maybe because the guys on the ground were running for their lives?

But it wasnt a total loss. Came across this TM printed in Sep 44. An analysis of Japanese tactics. Interesting read.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-nzfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=allied+night+attacks+on+japanese+airfields&source=bl&ots=HAJbrzoc37&sig=_NSFWGPtnjGbhDFZApbXtLuZU0Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cuj5Ue6-JcjXyAGavYGQDg&ved=0CGQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=allied night attacks on japanese airfields&f=false

Yes, interesting. Written in September 1944, this document represents a true historical snapshot and distillation of what was being observed in the war theaters. One thing that jumped out at me is shown in Section 'g' in the screenshot below. But it must be wrong. An untruth, a bald-faced LIE!!! I know this because I have been told over and over here by so many JFBs that it was UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE to conduct night bombing of air fields and other PTO targets. And by extension that Japan didn't do this, and so the Allies shouldn't either in the game. HRs to follow by stern letter from my game attorney.

But . . . woah. From 1944 the dead hand of history writes:



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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by witpqs »

IIRC there is an account of one or more night kamikaze attacks in The Big E.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: obvert

The rule was instigated after a night raid in 42 by 300+ 4E and 2E that closed a level 6 field and destroyed most of the 100+ fighters in base on the ground.

This is with the official patch.

OK, this is interesting.

Later in 1942 it's of course easier to amass 300 multi-engine. I'm in June, and I don't have that many in the world. I've been using mine aggressively in an anti-industry role, especially oil, and almost always at extreme range. I've had a lot of ops losses. Still, even by later in the year, this is a huge portion of his inventory. Was this smart?

This was in August, so not too far off. [:)]

My memory, however, seems to have changed some of the details. [8|] Ooops. Here is the report I wrote in the AAR.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]Torsten sent everything he had at Mandalay airfield. He'd already prolifically bombed oil fields at Mandalay with massed night attacks, and while I do think they're most likely too accurate in game even in that situation, against an airfield I've come to see this as way to powerful based on admittedly few facts from the war. It seems to me this would have become a consistent strategy if it was as accurate in the war as it is in game. I've looked on the internet and in books in my collection, including one on the 10th AF in Burma, but most of the information is from 43 onward as not much was in operating order in 42 and even into 43 strikes were small and mostly against logistical and economical targets.

This attack was of only 163 bombers, not overwhelming, but a good amount for mid-42. Altogether it put 86 damage on the fields and destroyed 36 fighters on a level 6 field that was not overstacked. If he could do this once a week even I would have to simply relinquish he air wherever he wanted to bomb. We have the no night bombing at less than 50% moonlight, but maybe this is not enough.

My question, and the point we're stuck on, is could this have really been done in 42 and if so why wasn't it done? (Or was it? He brought up Peenemunde, which was much later and a very specialized night raid with specific technology for that raid). If it seems unlikely then how do we proceed? What rules would work to a fair compromise to both sides? [/font]

You don't give info as to location, your CAP posture, etc. But 300 multi-engines can be seen by recon. Did you not see them? Also, you have 100 fighters in range of at least 300 multi-engine. Did you have ANY CAP up? Any would have done a lot to disrupt this attack. I suspect you didn't as most players never run night CAP, figuring they're "safe." It's like a chess player assuming the opposing queen will never move on the black squares. Part of this is I think a desire to have max forces available to use in better daylight conditions. But that works in both directions.

The assumption that if I can see them I can destroy them is bit far-reaching. Firstly 4E range is better than my bombers. Secondly I don't have the infrastructure in place to mass bombers and fighters in these bases, and if I did he could have simply raided those bases with more devastating results. It's tricky getting night raids to fly, and if I sat there trying to get mine to go his from level 9 Calcutta would get me first. Day raids had been attempted and achieved but effected little during the previous months, and his fighter strength had improved by this point. Only Oscars or zeros could sweep that far, and that would be dumb.

Also, this was official patch. I have to think this attack came from one base; even under the official there was less than perfect coordination. Under the beta this attack, even from one base, would be hard to coordinate with 4E and 2E mixed. Under the beta a lot of this attack would have gotten lost or not launched.

But was this attack smart for him to do? You lost 100 fighters. That's what? a week's production in 1942? And a Level 6 was closed. For how long? The support needed to run 100 fighters probably has enough engineers to fix that in 3-4 days max. And I'm sure he lost some planes to ops loss at least.

Ahh, this is where the problem lies. I lost only 36 fighters destroyed, others damaged, (as I now see from reports), but with the base at 86 damage he only has to sweep the LR CAP and crush it daily to inflict more damage during the day. This kind of a night raid changes the entire game and would collapse the air defenses with one blow. Only mini follow-on would be needed. If I try to keep defending it I lose. Simple.
But what was his opportunity cost? What else could he have done with 300 premium aircraft? If this was in support of a major land attack I might see it, but if it was just to blow stuff up? Dumb. Even in 1942 300 multi-engine can take out 60-80 points of Oil in one attack. For sure at least 50 HI points and about that in LI. If this was Burma he has such targets in range if he looks. Instead he blew up fighters you'll rebuild. He got a little VP gift, but he didn't kill any pilots. If I were you I'd welcome misuse of premium assets like this, not legislate against it.

And the next turn you knew he had 300 precious, non-replaceable planes sitting at bases you probably could reach the next night with Netties. You attacked them, right?

Wrong. Not possible, not profitable. Tell me I'm stupid, but in this situation there were no bases to attack from, not enough AS to support enough bombers to do anything meaningful, and putting them there makes them more a target than him. I know this because I tried it earlier. How often do you see big level 9 4E bases getting attacked these days by Japanese planes? I haven't read a report of that in quite a while.

Oil was gone, so he was not mis-using these assets, and 'blowing stuff up' is what leads to winning the game if you do it with strategic goals in mind. Pilots were kiled on the ground, also.

Your agenda of arguing for no HRs is interesting but clouds your arguments. Just leave that out and you might see more. There are still other issues you haven't mentioned, like the accuracy of 4E night shooting against night CAP. I do leave CAP up most of the time. Just sacrificial Oscars that usually are about 50% destroyed by the bombers moving through. Yes, the bombing is less effective, but I can't afford those losses continually, either.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: obvert

The rule was instigated after a night raid in 42 by 300+ 4E and 2E that closed a level 6 field and destroyed most of the 100+ fighters in base on the ground.

This is with the official patch.

OK, this is interesting.

Later in 1942 it's of course easier to amass 300 multi-engine. I'm in June, and I don't have that many in the world. I've been using mine aggressively in an anti-industry role, especially oil, and almost always at extreme range. I've had a lot of ops losses. Still, even by later in the year, this is a huge portion of his inventory. Was this smart?

This was in August, so not too far off. [:)]

OK. He has been pretty solicitous of his multi-engines it would seem. More than me for sure. [:)]

My memory, however, seems to have changed some of the details. [8|] Ooops. Here is the report I wrote in the AAR.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]Torsten sent everything he had at Mandalay airfield. He'd already prolifically bombed oil fields at Mandalay with massed night attacks, and while I do think they're most likely too accurate in game even in that situation, against an airfield I've come to see this as way to powerful based on admittedly few facts from the war. It seems to me this would have become a consistent strategy if it was as accurate in the war as it is in game. I've looked on the internet and in books in my collection, including one on the 10th AF in Burma, but most of the information is from 43 onward as not much was in operating order in 42 and even into 43 strikes were small and mostly against logistical and economical targets.

This attack was of only 163 bombers, not overwhelming, but a good amount for mid-42. Altogether it put 86 damage on the fields and destroyed 36 fighters on a level 6 field that was not overstacked. If he could do this once a week even I would have to simply relinquish he air wherever he wanted to bomb. We have the no night bombing at less than 50% moonlight, but maybe this is not enough.

My question, and the point we're stuck on, is could this have really been done in 42 and if so why wasn't it done? (Or was it? He brought up Peenemunde, which was much later and a very specialized night raid with specific technology for that raid). If it seems unlikely then how do we proceed? What rules would work to a fair compromise to both sides? [/font]

I think it wasn't done for lots of reasons. First, the geographic realities in most games is nowhere near what they were in RL. Allies tend to stay in range of good Japanese targets longer than happened in RL. Second is the logistical shortcuts the game offers. Letting "supply" stand in for everything plane-related, from avgas to piston rings, and letting local LI make "supply" completely turns the supply chain for air power on its head. In 1942 it was impossible for the Allies to get enough true log supply into central Burma. What is the avgas for just one 163 multi-engine attack? Many thousands of gallon, and it had to come on trucks or animal-drawn wagons. Ordnance for that attack? Tons and tons.

The op tempo in the game is ridiculous versus RL. How many times do we see 200-300 Japanese planes destroyed ion a day in the late war? How many times did that happen in the war? The Marianas Turkey Shoot has its own name because it was unique. Yet in games we see scores of days like that. It only works because the op tempo is too fast for both players. But it isn't realistic. Which is why trying to tamp down this one area--night bombing--with an "unrealistic" charge doesn't work for me.

LOTS of things in the game are "unrealistic." How many times did the IJN conduct BB bombardment of bases/AFs outside of landing operations? Yet we see Japanese (and Allied) players using BBs as roaming mobile air fields in their effects, coming in at night to smear planes. Wasn't done. IS done in the game. Why? The game gives capabilities, not historical recreation. The capabilities are sometimes on steroids. But they're balanced capabilities, which is what matters.

You don't give info as to location, your CAP posture, etc. But 300 multi-engines can be seen by recon. Did you not see them? Also, you have 100 fighters in range of at least 300 multi-engine. Did you have ANY CAP up? Any would have done a lot to disrupt this attack. I suspect you didn't as most players never run night CAP, figuring they're "safe." It's like a chess player assuming the opposing queen will never move on the black squares. Part of this is I think a desire to have max forces available to use in better daylight conditions. But that works in both directions.

The assumption that if I can see them I can destroy them is bit far-reaching.

You misunderstand me. I don't mean go get them at night. I mean put up CAP and wait for them to come to you, with ops losses. Recon just says "They're there. Defend against them."

Firstly 4E range is better than my bombers. Secondly I don't have the infrastructure in place to mass bombers and fighters in these bases, and if I did he could have simply raided those bases with more devastating results. It's tricky getting night raids to fly, and if I sat there trying to get mine to go his from level 9 Calcutta would get me first. Day raids had been attempted and achieved but effected little during the previous months, and his fighter strength had improved by this point. Only Oscars or zeros could sweep that far, and that would be dumb.

Also, this was official patch. I have to think this attack came from one base; even under the official there was less than perfect coordination. Under the beta this attack, even from one base, would be hard to coordinate with 4E and 2E mixed. Under the beta a lot of this attack would have gotten lost or not launched.

But was this attack smart for him to do? You lost 100 fighters. That's what? a week's production in 1942? And a Level 6 was closed. For how long? The support needed to run 100 fighters probably has enough engineers to fix that in 3-4 days max. And I'm sure he lost some planes to ops loss at least.

Ahh, this is where the problem lies. I lost only 36 fighters destroyed, others damaged, (as I now see from reports), but with the base at 86 damage he only has to sweep the LR CAP and crush it daily to inflict more damage during the day. This kind of a night raid changes the entire game and would collapse the air defenses with one blow. Only mini follow-on would be needed. If I try to keep defending it I lose. Simple.

I agree to the extent he could, with max effort, keep Mandalay closed, for awhile. See my game and Singers for an example of how Japan tried to do this. But to keep Mandalay closed he has to exert maximum effort for weeks, and that ties up his multi-engines . . . for weeks. I see players doing this all the time. For what objective? If Mandalay was essential for a land campaign maybe. Was it? Otherwise, don't LR-CAP. Leave Mandalay broken and open. Stack it with AA. Make him bleed. If he finds no planes there and quits, you fix it, automatically with on-site engineers. If he keeps battering away at AA to make holes, let him. Thank him for it. It's a gift.

But what was his opportunity cost? What else could he have done with 300 premium aircraft? If this was in support of a major land attack I might see it, but if it was just to blow stuff up? Dumb. Even in 1942 300 multi-engine can take out 60-80 points of Oil in one attack. For sure at least 50 HI points and about that in LI. If this was Burma he has such targets in range if he looks. Instead he blew up fighters you'll rebuild. He got a little VP gift, but he didn't kill any pilots. If I were you I'd welcome misuse of premium assets like this, not legislate against it.

And the next turn you knew he had 300 precious, non-replaceable planes sitting at bases you probably could reach the next night with Netties. You attacked them, right?

Wrong. Not possible, not profitable. Tell me I'm stupid, but in this situation there were no bases to attack from, not enough AS to support enough bombers to do anything meaningful, and putting them there makes them more a target than him. I know this because I tried it earlier. How often do you see big level 9 4E bases getting attacked these days by Japanese planes? I haven't read a report of that in quite a while.

Still not sure where his attack came from, but if you couldn't counter you couldn't. But he has to think that way all the time. And you have to be ready to push back, at night, when you can.

Oil was gone, so he was not mis-using these assets,

If the Oil is gone there's HI and LI and Manpower. IF he can reach Mandalay I'm pretty sure I could find those targets in Indochina, or western China with red flags on them. Take out HI and you ARE taking out airplanes. And ships. And Arms points. Once all of that is taken care of THEN attack planes on the ground. Until then let tactical assets attack tactical targets. Strategic bombers are crown jewels.

and 'blowing stuff up' is what leads to winning the game if you do it with strategic goals in mind.

I disagree, but blowing stuff up is the main end of most AE players. Read Nemo or jrcar for a different view and process.

Pilots were kiled on the ground, also.

Your agenda of arguing for no HRs is interesting but clouds your arguments.

It influences my arguments, but I don't think it clouds them. I just haven't seen any situation where an HR is imposed where there isn't a solution without the HR.

Just leave that out and you might see more. There are still other issues you haven't mentioned, like the accuracy of 4E night shooting against night CAP. I do leave CAP up most of the time. Just sacrificial Oscars that usually are about 50% destroyed by the bombers moving through. Yes, the bombing is less effective, but I can't afford those losses continually, either.

And he can't afford the losses to ops. I think night CAP by non-night-fighters is hugely too effective. In my game I've had to fight off Nates at night! Nates! No radar. No fighter direction. But night CAP finds and engages pretty much all the time. "Realistic"? No. But it works with the rest of the models, including bomber defenses in the engagement. Both sides want a perfect attack or a perfect defense. The only real truth there is the Allied player has to weigh the benefits of a night or day attack with finite aircraft pools. The Japanese player can lose his Nates and make more. Unless the Allied player runs him out of HI.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by MDDgames »

I never said they didnt conduct night attacks (by either side).

I said the net result of those night attacks was near zero. By either side. And I havent seen a written account by the Japanese side that disputes that. Nor have I seen where Japanese night attacks were anything more than a nuisance either.

Then question isnt did they do it. The question is, did it achieve anything? If the game worked the way the war itself worked, then ok, no problem. But lets face it, it doesnt, and the shortcomings in the GAME have to be offset by house rules, if you want anything near a "historical game".
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by AW1Steve »

Everyone keeps harping on "no Japanese accounts" . Could the fact that MacArthur ordered a massive destruction of Japanese records have anything to do with this? Or do we simply subscribe to the "no photo's, no records', it couldn't happen theory? From what I've seen here , some of the posters could get hit in the face with a Louisville slugger , and lacking evidence (excepting a few broken teeth) claim it couldn't have happened. "Swamp gas theory". [:D]

Possibility and actual occurrence are not requirements of each other. Except in this forum. (Which also absorbs 47 times it's own weight in excess reality).[X(][:(][8|]
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: MDDgames

I never said they didnt conduct night attacks (by either side).

I said the net result of those night attacks was near zero. By either side. And I havent seen a written account by the Japanese side that disputes that. Nor have I seen where Japanese night attacks were anything more than a nuisance either.

Then question isnt did they do it. The question is, did it achieve anything? If the game worked the way the war itself worked, then ok, no problem. But lets face it, it doesnt, and the shortcomings in the GAME have to be offset by house rules, if you want anything near a "historical game".

I gave you an evidence trail all the way down to the document from the post-mission debrief. That evidence trail proves--not suggests--that a night heavy-bomber attack was a key factor in a major 4-day air campaign that ended up with Japan losing eastern NG.

If you think that's nothing you're welcome to your opinion. I'll go with the documents.

And I note here a moving of goalposts from "Night attacks were impossible!" to "Night attacks were a waste of time." Progress I suppose.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by MDDgames »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: MDDgames

I never said they didnt conduct night attacks (by either side).

I said the net result of those night attacks was near zero. By either side. And I havent seen a written account by the Japanese side that disputes that. Nor have I seen where Japanese night attacks were anything more than a nuisance either.

Then question isnt did they do it. The question is, did it achieve anything? If the game worked the way the war itself worked, then ok, no problem. But lets face it, it doesnt, and the shortcomings in the GAME have to be offset by house rules, if you want anything near a "historical game".

I gave you an evidence trail all the way down to the document from the post-mission debrief. That evidence trail proves--not suggests--that a night heavy-bomber attack was a key factor in a major 4-day air campaign that ended up with Japan losing eastern NG.

If you think that's nothing you're welcome to your opinion. I'll go with the documents.

And I note here a moving of goalposts from "Night attacks were impossible!" to "Night attacks were a waste of time." Progress I suppose.

As I already said, the "documents" are one sided. And they were intended to be 1 sided to prove the point that the writer of these documents was trying to make.

The point being, it is an opinion from only 1 side, and until you provide an opinion from the other side to back it up, thats all your gum pounding will ever be: 1 persons opinion.

And I cant see where I ever said night attacks werent possible. They were, and were used often by both sides. But what I said, and you choose to ignore is the GAME doesnt represent those raids true to the real war, and thus rules need to be imposed on the players that want a "historical" result of night attacks. To be sure the game is much better about it now with Michaels changes than it was in its original, but it is still not there.

I have read most if not all the accounts of Japanese air attacks on allied bases at night. I have read many of the British bomber commands analysis of their own effectiveness and thus their decision to revert to city bombing. And I daresay that the British were probably the best equipped nation to conduct night bombing raids during the WWII period, and THEY didnt do it. You find 1 source and accept it as gospel that the US precision bombed airfields at night routinely? According to the little bit of your posts that I bothered to read, 1 time the US bombed an airfield and that 1 time won the war for the US? Thats the way you try to make it sound.

But the truth is, far far more raids were completely ineffective in the real war, but not so in the game. So the game should allow the results YOU cite every time because it happened ONCE in the war? That being the case, why cant I launch B-25s off carriers in the game? It happened ONCE in the real war...
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by witpqs »

Hah! A great new defense for anyone accused of something - just refuse to agree that it happened! That way all accounts are 'one-sided' and can't be used. [:D]
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by MDDgames »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Hah! A great new defense for anyone accused of something - just refuse to agree that it happened! That way all accounts are 'one-sided' and can't be used. [:D]

Ok, lets say it DID happen just for the sake of argument, does that mean it should happen IN THE GAME each and every turn because it may have actually happened ONCE in the real war?

No it shouldnt. If that one occurrence that he insists happened was the norm, or an average result, then fine. But it wasnt, assuming it obtained the actual result that is PRESUMED from the Japanese response. It was way outside the norm. Doolittle strike happened once, but cant be repeated in the game. Makin raid happened once and cant be repeated (with the units involved) in the game.....

You want to argue that this one result (if it actually happened as the allied side presumed) should justify night bombing at will in the game, all I can say to that is [8|]
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by witpqs »

You are trying to put words in my mouth. I am NOT convinced that it only happened once. Moose went and found original sources about that incident. Have you found original sources saying "the Allies only did that once"?

Second, the current s/w has had night attacks much adjusted, with a big impact from night fighters.

Third, I am totally skeptical of the 100' night attacks, like the one that (IIRC) was cited at the start of this thread. Those things were likely more one-off type of special planning affairs.

Fourth, last year I read (audio book) an account of a nighttime Japanese attack on a US air base on an atoll. They hit the base and planes on the ground just fine.

The Doolittle raid has nothing to do with this.
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RE: Night bombing unreality?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

Getting ready to go off-line, but I wanted to post a few more selections from the official histories. Burma theater, late 1943:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/IV/AAF-IV-14.html

"Meanwhile RAF missions were flown on the night of 28 November against Insein, and on the night of the 30th against Mingaladon and Zayatkwin airdromes and the Rangoon dock area. After the last bombing effort of the AAF on 1 December, the RAF flew night missions on 2, 5, and 6 December, striking at Bassein, Heho airdrome, and Moulmein. Its forces on all these missions were relatively small, and in all only sixty-six sorties were flown at the expense of three Wellingtons.59"

"On the night of 19 December, twenty-one B-24J's of the 7th Group took off to bomb the newly expanded Bangkok dock area. One failed to reach the target, but shortly after midnight the remaining Liberators began to rain their bombs on the water front. Some of the heavies were singled out by searchlights which followed them through their bomb runs, blinding crew members so that they could not assess the accuracy of their bombardment. Flak was ineffective and no interceptors appeared. For more than an hour the various flights dumped their bombs, most of which were believed to have fallen within the assigned target area. In all they dropped 100 X 500-pound bombs, but mechanical failure of bomb racks caused them to withhold ten incendiary clusters. Although no fires were reported, it was thought that substantial destruction had been wrought.65

On the night of 23 December a second attack was made on Bangkok, this time with the railway terminal as the aiming point. Twenty-one Liberators took off, with two aborting. The remaining nineteen scattered upon the target 110 X 500-pounders, of which fifty-nine were incendiaries. Upon this occasion there was no doubt that the chosen objective was hit effectively. All squadrons sighted huge fires, and one reported heavy explosions three minutes after the bomb run. Again flak was not effective, and the two enemy aircraft sighted failed to attack.66"




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