ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.
Depends on what is in front of them, by july 2, 3rd panzer division was at Roghacev , that just deep into SU and across more dificult terain than pz gr1 had from his staging area to kiev.
as for velikie luki, that hapend becase , the soviet player did not defend that area properly .
Heard this before... calling Klydon. U guys should really try reading the war diaries of the different corps. As in the case here for example. LVI Pz korps/XXIV Pz Korps vs III and XXXXVII Pz korps.
Terrain means nothing if there is no enemy to utilize it. Its just as fast driving a car over roads on the ukraine stepps for 500km as it is driving down a road 500km in the wooded northern russia. There is no noticeble difference.
It wasnt the terrain that didnt stop XXIV pz korps/ 3rd Pz div. Just looking at the map of WiTE gives the answer as soon as u had cleared the initial border forces. There wasnt much to stop and their location was spotty so usually was easily side stepped. The war diaries of the divs/korps of LVI/XXIV relects that.
Simplfied said. They read in those day(first 2 turns). Drive, drive drive, side skirt an enemy, wait for suppply, drive, drive, drive and do a coup de main to get across a river/ capture some bridges, drive, drive, drive.
No enemy , aka no combat = u can keep moving most of the time.
Then there is the korps diaries III and XXXXVI Pz Korps. They made 2 yes TWO hexes from the border in the first 3 days aka the first turn.
Waiting in huge trafic jam as the first line of russian troops arent cleared yet. Cant deploy the Korps as there is no room cuz of continued fighting, one kampfgruppe is battleing the enemy, but there are only slow Progress, another inserted and making limited progress.
Next 3 days, still cant deploy korps as still not enough room as been made for deploying fully. Getting troops in the frontline and and finally making progress. Progressed stopped as enemy is counter attacking. Taking time to deploy into combat formation. Fight, fight fight, drive, counter attacked, having to redeploy in combat formation again. At end of turn 2 u from 8 to 10 hexes from border at the highpoints, and the korps still having problems deploying their full force as there is a lack of room for deployment.
Insert usual wargamer responce. Yes but what if i just had taken 2 korps from AGC and added those. Now i get a 6-1 instead of a 3-1 so im assured to go faster.
Right, it had changed nothing in real life. As the problem was a lack of room for deployment, enemy resistance and trafic jams. Adding more forces just increase the problems, not help them. U could have had an extra Pz army but if it cant deploy it cant fight or advance and if u cant fight or advance it helps nada.
Terrain has zero influence here Its all a question of the enemy having many more forces that cant be bypassed and in layed defences. Thats what stops 1st Pz Group. Not the terrain or lack there off. Just as in AGN and AGC terrain mattered nothing as there was no enemy too stop them from advancing down the road in the "bad terrain". Could it have been different if there had been enemies to stop them sure than terrain matters as it confines the possible avenues of approches helping any defence. Just wasnt the case as there was "no one" to defend.
Looking at the map of WiTE it also shows exactly this there are many more troops and in semi checkerboard formation in det opposite 1st Pzgroup. In the AGN, AGC area there is the initial border forces but as soon as u are past them there are lots of avenues u can just keep driving not having to make any combat as there is no enemies to contact.
Unfortuatly the engine doesnt begin to show these difficulties/stiffness of the opposition in AGS area so one are automaticly able to do things that wasnt remote possible in RL with or with out added forces. A few pushes here and there and u open up holes u can drive through. Nothing to do what happend in reality or what was remotely possible to do in real life.
U can keep tellign ur self that its much easier terrain, so ofc u could have made the same the same progress. If u wana know why they only made it 2 hexes from the border in the first turns time, study the reasons. Then u will also know there really wast much different they could have made to make it go any faster. Less we going into fantasy land and use of 20/20 hindsight.
There is real life military friction and then there is games. Highjack over.
Rasmus
