Wild Sheep Chase - obvert (J) vs JocMeister (A)

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Yes me remember.

I remember you saying something about a pilot getting a kill defensively. Was that in an Emily?

[Captain Cruft]

Yes indeed, on a night Port Attack.

[obvert]

Wow. At night no less.

[obvert]

So, more fro mJocke this morning about his frustrations with air transport. I get it to a point, and understand he feels powerless to stop it, which shouldn't be the case. I will eventually tel him the foolproof method, but for now I'm doing some tests to see what is actually happening.

It seems so far that the ability to fly low is keeping transports from getting attacked. I'll move them up to 6k and see if something changes.

[RogerJNeilson]

I am reading both sides here so will not make any comment that could compromise anything. I think there is a clear distinction between game play and game mechanics which hopefully you two can help to resolve. If its a case that you have a way of getting the transports in and out that is realistic and possible then its up to your opponent to figure it out. If its a case that transports cannot be stopped then that is a situation that is unrealistic. You will be doing us all a service if you can discover which it is.


Roger

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

I am reading both sides here so will not make any comment that could compromise anything. I think there is a clear distinction between game play and game mechanics which hopefully you two can help to resolve. If its a case that you have a way of getting the transports in and out that is realistic and possible then its up to your opponent to figure it out. If its a case that transports cannot be stopped then that is a situation that is unrealistic. You will be doing us all a service if you can discover which it is.


Roger

Thanks Roger. I agree, intercepts should be able to work to some degree. Not of course an iron CAP, but getting to some transports. I do know I've been taking losses, but whether those are due to heavy use of the planes and crews at distance or due to intercept is the real question.

So far in my tests I've not been able to get planes to intercept at just one hex regardless of settings. That seems a problem. I almost confident it worked earlier in other versions, so maybe this is exclusive to some beta versions. We're on 1123k.

[RogerJNeilson]

A potentially serious issue to me is not the lift capacity of the Jap planes, but the ability of them to lift devices.... to my mind any commitment of any transports should be able to lift men and rifles, machine guns etc.... small arms and other equipment. Indeed in my own 1944 game I am doing just that with Chindits. However their heavier equipment stays at the rear base as it should. If big devices can be airlifted then that is a serious problem.

Roger

[fcharton]

I had the impression than transport intercepts often resulted in aborting the mission, and therefore reducing the amount transported. I believe this is what the "transport to... intercepted" means, some aircraft had to turn back before they could deliver their load.

It might be interesting to sandbox this, and see whether transport move less troops around in the presence of enemy CAP, and maybe whether float planes (which are less constrained in terms of approach, I think) suffer less than regular planes.

Francois

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

I had the impression than transport intercepts often resulted in aborting the mission, and therefore reducing the amount transported. I believe this is what the "transport to... intercepted" means, some aircraft had to turn back before they could deliver their load.

It might be interesting to sandbox this, and see whether transport move less troops around in the presence of enemy CAP, and maybe whether float planes (which are less constrained in terms of approach, I think) suffer less than regular planes.

Francois

Not sure this is the case. In my other PBEM game (latest official patch) I had a 1 plane transport group intercepted and it still transported a fragment of a unit.....

[wallentin]

Im reading both of your AAR... and both are like an alternative history for me... sometimes more interesting because now have a chance to look inside both commenders' deep thoughts.

About the airlifting. In smallscale is good, but that is totally unrealistic as you use. Some kind of arial Dunkirk. Can u imagine when ten thousand japanise soldier waiting for plane on the beach. And hunderds patrols are tring to dock to some kind of improvized infrastructure. Without air cover, they are parking there for hours? And what about the equipments?

If u suggest a HR: arial transport can be used only from starting base. They have to sit there and u have to defend them while moving stuff.

Anyway thx the AAR

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Not sure this is the case. In my other PBEM game (latest official patch) I had a 1 plane transport group intercepted and it still transported a fragment of a unit.....

Hi Speedy,

I think it still makes sense, as a transport can be intercepted on its way in, or after it is done unloading (or the other way around if it is picking up troops). That was my impression, anyway.

@Wallentin: it is far from an aerial dunkirk: load capacities are pretty low, so you need quite a while before you can ferrry a unit out of some base (losing all the heavy equipment in the process). And again, you get a lot of fatigue , and you need an airfield, or a port, in decent condition.

Francois

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: wallentin

Im reading both of your AAR... and both are like an alternative history for me... sometimes more interesting because now have a chance to look inside both commenders' deep thoughts.

About the airlifting. In smallscale is good, but that is totally unrealistic as you use. Some kind of arial Dunkirk. Can u imagine when ten thousand japanise soldier waiting for plane on the beach. And hunderds patrols are tring to dock to some kind of improvized infrastructure. Without air cover, they are parking there for hours? And what about the equipments?

If u suggest a HR: arial transport can be used only from starting base. They have to sit there and u have to defend them while moving stuff.

Anyway thx the AAR

Interesting ideas.

The way I imagine it is making most of the flight during the day (from about 6 bases in Luzon as well as Babeldaob), arriving in the combat zone around dusk, landing at night on the field or port. Loading up immediately. This shouldn't take more than an hour per plane and there is a ton of support here with the original 30-40k troops, including air HQs, lots of mechanized support (tractors to pull things and trucks to carry them). We're talking about at most like 20 men per plane with some equipment. The gun stat move are anything up to the 75mm infantry guns but not including the 75mm T90 field guns. These are the only things in this particular division that moved out that were too big to fly.

Remember also that this is a level 6 'set' of fields, maybe 3-4 in a 46 mile wide hex. The port is also a level 5 with a naval HQ here, whether that helps or not.

All planes would then be off before light, traveling the first hours in darkness (high moonlight settings during this period of the game by the way, between 70+ and up to 100, then now falling back down). This is the flying from the several hex wide combat zone, and at the slowest of the transports' cruising speed, (161 mph for the L2D2 Tabby) these could be away to safe airspace in an hour or two at most.

During what part of that would the intercepts happen?

So although I agree there should be a way to intercept some transports moving troops, I can envision situations where none would even be seen except on radar. The Allies could have used night fighters in reality, or bombed at night, and that might have really messed things up, but also would have risked a lot.

Here are some shots of the situation to give everyone a better idea of what has been happening. On the 4th the field damage was 1, so a lot of flying could take place.

[obvert]

Here are the units still there on this date, or most of them, sorted by AV levels.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Not sure this is the case. In my other PBEM game (latest official patch) I had a 1 plane transport group intercepted and it still transported a fragment of a unit.....

Hi Speedy,

I think it still makes sense, as a transport can be intercepted on its way in, or after it is done unloading (or the other way around if it is picking up troops). That was my impression, anyway.

@Wallentin: it is far from an aerial dunkirk: load capacities are pretty low, so you need quite a while before you can ferrry a unit out of some base (losing all the heavy equipment in the process). And again, you get a lot of fatigue , and you need an airfield, or a port, in decent condition.

Francois

But not if the 1 plane was shot down whilst picking up the troops but still managed to transport a fragment of the unit to Cairns [;)]

[obvert]

These are all of the transport and patrol planes flying to Davao. As you can see, it's mostly conventional wheeled transport planes and not as many flying boats.

You can also see the immense fatigue, low morale and general shabbiness of the force after extended periods of flying at too high a rate over long distances. This is costing Japan in airframes, tons of supply and many pilots. As always on this side of the game, there is a price.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: fcharton

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Not sure this is the case. In my other PBEM game (latest official patch) I had a 1 plane transport group intercepted and it still transported a fragment of a unit.....

Hi Speedy,

I think it still makes sense, as a transport can be intercepted on its way in, or after it is done unloading (or the other way around if it is picking up troops). That was my impression, anyway.

@Wallentin: it is far from an aerial dunkirk: load capacities are pretty low, so you need quite a while before you can ferrry a unit out of some base (losing all the heavy equipment in the process). And again, you get a lot of fatigue , and you need an airfield, or a port, in decent condition.

Francois

But not if the 1 plane was shot down whilst picking up the troops but still managed to transport a fragment of the unit to Cairns [;)]

Ha! That's a bit odd for sure.

[wallentin]

I see. You are using mostly land based transport.

But in this case i think u have to use some kind of AF stacking HR.

"An airfield can operate 50 single engine (or 25 two engine, or 12 four engine) planes per AF size
or 1 group per AF size. The best Air HQ of the same command as the base which is within range
can add its command radius to the number of groups that can be administrated, or if not in the
same command, the nearest HQ will add ½ its command radius to the number of groups."

But it seems me unrealistics. Land and launch almost 20 airgroup and almost 300 plane per day on a level 6 AF.
I know, you have 13th Air Fleet on the base which can help organize the evacuation. But this seems me impossible mission. In Normandy 44 there were a few month to plan the logistic issues.

I think u can evacuate (or move in/out like did earlier) the troops, but not combat ready. Like Dunkirk. The game is working different way... and need a good HR to handle this gap.

[fcharton]

How many squads do you get out every day with your 300 planes?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

How many squads do you get out every day with your 300 planes?

It all depended on the damage levels of the fields, or at least it seemed to. I truly wasn't looking that closely to know exactly how many were moving each day. I was only loading up all of them for the division at first. I don't even remember when this really began. I'll have to check.

I had taken parts of all out when they were still at Cagayan, preparing for a retreat. Then I paradropped Malabalay after Jocke left it unoccupied, and retreated there in order. I thikn I got one day of runs out there before the fields were trashed, then had another crushing defeat, losing something like 7k men at Malaybalay, and then on to Davao.

During all of this I was of course trying to battle an invasion in the Marianas and deal with the difficulties in Burma, as del as keep the rest of the areas somewhat active, so I didn't think too much about the troops being pulled out, LR CAP or anything else. I just noticed they were still moving, that the ops losses were acceptable, and kept going. It was only in the last few turns when Jocke sent messages about his LR CAP not working that I started to look more closely.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: wallentin

I see. You are using mostly land based transport.

But in this case i think u have to use some kind of AF stacking HR.

"An airfield can operate 50 single engine (or 25 two engine, or 12 four engine) planes per AF size
or 1 group per AF size. The best Air HQ of the same command as the base which is within range
can add its command radius to the number of groups that can be administrated, or if not in the
same command, the nearest HQ will add ½ its command radius to the number of groups."

But it seems me unrealistics. Land and launch almost 20 airgroup and almost 300 plane per day on a level 6 AF.
I know, you have 13th Air Fleet on the base which can help organize the evacuation. But this seems me impossible mission. In Normandy 44 there were a few month to plan the logistic issues.

I think u can evacuate (or move in/out like did earlier) the troops, but not combat ready. Like Dunkirk. The game is working different way... and need a good HR to handle this gap.

I count 223 wheeled transport and 35 flying boats.

Again, it might not be 'a' level 6 field. This is meant to approximate the use of several fields in some cases. I live in the London area. The 'hex' here would have had about 10-12 fields in it. Maybe more. Definitely a size 10 complex.

Dunkirk and Normandy were on an epic scale much more grand and incredible than this. We're talking about one shattered division, at about 40% strength, being lifted without most of it's machinery and bigger guns (destroyed in several retreats earlier). A few even more shattered brigades, (only one of which is fully out now, minus guns), and elements of construction, base forces and support units so they can have a core unit to start from if destroyed here when the Allied masses arrive and knock us back again.

Jocke is telling me I've moved 25k troops. I'm not sure its that much. Still way off the several hundred thousands for Dunkirk and more for Normandy. Lets not forget that that was a highly contested hex and the port was too damaged to use! Amazing.

[font="Trebuchet MS"] In the nine days from 27 May – 4 June 338,226 men escaped, including 139,997 French, Polish and Belgian troops, together with a small number of Dutch soldiers, aboard 861 vessels (of which 243 were sunk during the operation). Liddell Hart says British Fighter Command lost 106 aircraft dogfighting over Dunkirk, and the Luftwaffe lost about 135 – some of which were shot down by the French Navy and the Royal Navy; but MacDonald says the British lost 177 aircraft and the Germans lost 240.

The docks at Dunkirk were too badly damaged to be used, but the East and West Moles (sea walls protecting the harbour entrance) were intact. Captain William Tennant—in charge of the evacuation—decided to use the beaches and the East Mole to land the ships. This highly successful idea hugely increased the number of troops that could be embarked each day, and indeed at the rescue operation's peak, on 31 May, over 68,000 men were taken off.[14][31]
The last of the British Army left on 3 June, and at 10:50, Tennant signalled Ramsay to say "Operation completed. Returning to Dover." However, Churchill insisted on coming back for the French, so the Royal Navy returned on 4 June in an attempt to rescue as many as possible of the French rearguard. Over 26,000 French troops were lifted off on that last day — but between 30,000 and 40,000 French soldiers were left behind and forced to surrender to the Germans.[/font]