Air transport interception - Not working in BETA

[JocMeister]

I have suspected for quite some time that this is not working as intended if at all. Some development in my PBEM game led me to do a quick sandbox to try and get confirmation. It looks like the air transport mission can´t be intercepted or stopped in any way. Regardless of distance or number of involved planes. I don´t know if its BETA only or in the official too. I have only tested it in BETA.

I didn´t know really know how to properly test it but I just set 1000 P51s on LRCAP (2 hexes away) over a base where a transport unit were told to pick up a ID. I ran it multiple (more than 50) times with different settings to LRCAP, altitude, number of squadrons and distance from the base. While the Operation report always say "transports intercepted" the ID was always transported without even a disabled squad and the only losses to the transports were OPS one. Not one air to air kill took place. In fact the P51 suffered more OPS losses then the transport. The OPS losses are on the transports are almost exactly the same if I stand down the LRCAP. So it doesn´t look like the LRCAP contributes to the OPS losses in any way.

This goes hand in hand with what I have seen in my PBEM game. I´m sorry for not providing better info than this but I´m sure you know what to look for.

If needed I can provide screens from the sandbox, the SCEN from the sandbox and/or saves from the PBEM.

[Quixote]

Puhis did some testing on this quite a while ago (I don't think it was in beta. I don't think there even was a beta when he did it.) I remember he came up with a maximum range for LRCAP to be flying from to achieve actual kills vs just the "transports intercepted" message, but I don't remember what the range was (3 hexes, I think, but not at all sure.) If you are getting nothing at all from 2 hexes, then maybe the beta did indeed change something. I'll see if I can dig up a link to the stuff Puhis did.

[Quixote]

Heres's the link, but I can't find anywhere that Michael commented on it.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 3672,d.aWc

[obvert]

There are some other things to try I think. In the linked document michaelm made an interesting comment:

It is fairly abstract.
The first flight found in range is used to intercept. It could be that the Rufe groups are low numbered and would be created before higher numbered groups.

Which of your groups in game is lowest numbered? Is that the group taking ops losses from LR CAP over the Davao hex, or at least more than others, indicating possible combat?

If what he says above is true, does it matter if there are one group of 42 P-51 or many groups of 1000s? also your sandbox may behave differently because of the large numbers involved. I'll run a small one with equal numbers of fighters and transports.

Also, one thought I had is that the Emily patrol planes do have extensive defensive armament. I'm not sure how much that is shown in game as none of my pilots seem to have any listed kills, but maybe they do fight off attacks and damage fighters. If as michaelm seems to indicate above there is only one group going for the transports and it hits 18 of those it's like (or should be like) going up against 18 Allied bombers.

Just throwing out ideas.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Quixote

Puhis did some testing on this quite a while ago (I don't think it was in beta. I don't think there even was a beta when he did it.) I remember he came up with a maximum range for LRCAP to be flying from to achieve actual kills vs just the "transports intercepted" message, but I don't remember what the range was (3 hexes, I think, but not at all sure.) If you are getting nothing at all from 2 hexes, then maybe the beta did indeed change something. I'll see if I can dig up a link to the stuff Puhis did.

Hey,

Thanks for the link. I´ll try and stay off the discussion about the range as I have very strong feelings about that... [;)]

This doesn´t apply here though as the range in my test were only 2 hexes using P51Hs with or without droptanks. In my test I have been completely unable to make even one interception. Not one hint of the transports being intercepted besides the message in the OPS report. No troops lost, no transports shot down. Nothing.

I ran it some 50 times more this morning changing plane types ,downsizing to normal squadron sizes, changing altitudes, EXP of pilots on both sides. Still the same. No ACTUAL intercept were made that I could see besides the line in the OPS report.

This is again completely in line with what I have seen in my PBEM. Even before upgrading to the BETA. That being said I don´t really know how to test this properly besides trying to create intercepts using different methods. So far I have been unable to. So I hope michealm will take a look at it and see if something gone bonkers.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: obvert

There are some other things to try I think. In the linked document michaelm made an interesting comment:

It is fairly abstract.
The first flight found in range is used to intercept. It could be that the Rufe groups are low numbered and would be created before higher numbered groups.

Which of your groups in game is lowest numbered? Is that the group taking ops losses from LR CAP over the Davao hex, or at least more than others, indicating possible combat?

If what he says above is true, does it matter if there are one group of 42 P-51 or many groups of 1000s? also your sandbox may behave differently because of the large numbers involved. I'll run a small one with equal numbers of fighters and transports.

Also, one thought I had is that the Emily patrol planes do have extensive defensive armament. I'm not sure how much that is shown in game as none of my pilots seem to have any listed kills, but maybe they do fight off attacks and damage fighters. If as michaelm seems to indicate above there is only one group going for the transports and it hits 18 of those it's like (or should be like) going up against 18 Allied bombers.

Just throwing out ideas.

Well, I see no signs in either our game nor the sandbox of any kind of combat taking place. Just regular OPS losses from flying transport and LRCAP.

And if it doesn´t matter if you have 42 Fighters or 1000 that should certainly be looked at? Same thing if only one group can actually make the intercept despite 10 being on LRCAP? After all if I put 200 P51Bs (As I did in our game) on LRCAP 2 hexes away a fair amount would show up if you were sweeping the hex I was LRCAPing. Right? Not only the first group.

My feel is that this is not working properly at all and I hope michaelm will take a look at it! [&o]

[obvert]

As usual, I think Jocke is onto something here. My tests actually show some even more odd results, and I'll get to those after introducing the parameters.

If you see anything I'm missing or not setting to best ability to perform these tasks for any units, please step in and correct. we're really just trying to figure this out now.

I set up in my test game a situation of 1 hex LR CAP from Cocanada to Viz in India. Tinas from Magwe are running an infantry regiment in and out of the base for several weeks. The troops are definitely moving, so the planes are flying, and yet NONE are intercepted. This is run over several weeks time and with the introduction of some US fighter groups that are larger and have better experience and skill than the original Indian groups. Still, nothing!

Here are the shots to start out. Two groups of Tinas operating at 20 hexes to Viz. Two groups of Spit VIII flying from Cocanada. First settings you can see here. I though the Tinas might escape detection at low altitudes, and they did, but ....

[obvert]

Here is the next set of shots showing after several days that the Tinas are going strong with no losses and the troops are moving well.

[obvert]

... after changing the altitude settings of the fighters to go lower and find the low transports, there were no changes in the results.

So I decided to bring in the big guns and change the altitudes to get the fighters closer to the transports and the transports also closer to the fighters.

Tinas were set on 6k, and the fighters at 10k.

[obvert]

Sill nothing. As you can see, the Tinas still have only one ops loss from the beginning of the test (I haven't touched them except to raise altitude to 6k) and the troops are still moving around, now heading back to Viz.

[obvert]

Then I decided to see if the CAP was set at too high a level and maybe they weren't around by the time the transports arrived due to having used their ops points for the day or something similar at 80/20 LR CAP/rest.

I set them to 40/20 now and still, nothing. Not even an ops loss.

I ran this for a few days.

[Skyland]

FYI the routine is working in the "old" witp. I have some examples in my current PBEM. Don't remember the exact conditions. Anyway i have not tested it in AE.

[obvert]

Then I thought, well, I'll check to see if the LR CAP is actually flying over that base by sending in a combat engineer unit and getting a G3M3 group from Rangoon to bomb the unit at Viz.

Results? In a two day turn the G3M3 group was decimated and the transports suffered no losses! (If you notice one less plane it was an ops loss n the 4th, but no kills listed for the fighters that day).

[Speedysteve]

Only a limited test example to add but in a standard (latest official patch) PBEM game air transport can and does get intercepted and shot down. For example I was picking up troops from PM from Cairns and a 6 x plane C47 Sqn was intercepted by Zeroes from Buna. All 6 were shot down......

[obvert]

Here are the transports after the turns where the Nells were toasted. No issues, sailing along with few problems except bad morale caused by a poor group leader.

The fighters are here also with lots of new kills.

Please let me know if there is anything else I should try. I'll also post the test game file and anyone else can give it a run if they are still doubting things or want to try different settings. It's a campaign game that I've run for tests up to 44, as you can see, but almost everything is shut down except for this isolated test, making the turns run very quickly.

(Sorry about he poor image quality with this one!)

[obvert]

Here are the combat reports from the 4th and 5th of January, 44. These show the transports moving the unit ad being intercepted and also the combat between the fighters and the bombers in the same hex.

(save file at bottom of post)

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[font="Trebuchet MS"]OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Jan 04, 44

25 x L3Y2 Tina transporting 47th Infantry Regiment from Vizagapatnam
L3Y2 Tina flying to Vizagapatnam intercepted
25 x L3Y2 Tina transporting 47th Infantry Regiment from Vizagapatnam
L3Y2 Tina flying to Vizagapatnam intercepted

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Jan 05, 44


25 x L3Y2 Tina transporting 47th Infantry Regiment from Vizagapatnam
L3Y2 Tina flying to Vizagapatnam intercepted
25 x L3Y2 Tina transporting 47th Infantry Regiment from Vizagapatnam
L3Y2 Tina flying to Vizagapatnam intercepted

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 04, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 14th Army Engineer Battalion, at 42,37 (Vizagapatnam)

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 10 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 18

Allied aircraft
P-40N5 Warhawk x 8
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 10 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
23rd FG/74th FS with P-40N5 Warhawk (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Raid is overhead
23rd FG/75th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 05, 44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 14th Army Engineer Battalion, at 42,37 (Vizagapatnam)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 4

Allied aircraft
P-40N5 Warhawk x 8
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
23rd FG/74th FS with P-40N5 Warhawk (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Raid is overhead
23rd FG/75th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead

[/font]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Also, here is the save game from the test if anyone wants to try it out.

It is beta version 1123k.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Only a limited test example to add but in a standard (latest official patch) PBEM game air transport can and does get intercepted and shot down. For example I was picking up troops from PM from Cairns and a 6 x plane C47 Sqn was intercepted by Zeroes from Buna. All 6 were shot down......

This is what I remember as well. I can most likely do one in the official patch at some point, but maybe not this morning after all of this! [:)]

[JocMeister]

Can someone else please try this so its not my install that is broken? At least in my sandbox I have no problem at all even picking up units troops by air from a 100% wrecked AF...With 2% OPS losses.

[obvert]

Here are a few more tests on damaged airfields and port.

I bombed Viz and at first as you can see the Tinas were working. Once the field was hit the reverted to sending supply only. This continued even though I set them to send troops again. They kept reverting to supply and no troops flew in.

[obvert]

The Mavis flew just fine, but when the port became damaged immediately took two ops losses. It was harder to get the port to complete damage here, and the Mavis kept flying in all troops at 1 squad per plane per day.

So for a small sample, the closing of fields seems to shut off transport of troops in this test, but the closure of port does nothing. Unless it must be totally closed.